<span class="highlight">Solar</span> <span class="highlight">panel</span> 24V to 12V conversion & rating tests.

The news is not good.
I tested in overcast cloudy conditions.

With modified negative wire as photo shown above.
Test 1. Voc 25.2v

Test 2. Isc 0.30



Now in 24V mode. (No jumper lead)
Test 1. Voc 37.8V
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2927/wdxb.jpg
Test 2. Isc 0.31A



This test showed that yes it reduces the voltage but amps stay the same. Which makes me think that it's efficiency will only be that of a 100Watt panel not 200Watt as the Amps remain at 6/7 in perfect conditions.

Now I need your help - Could the wire be too thick? What I used was thicker and also copper wire, could that influence Isc reading in this case?

What about joining the positive side as well? My logic when joining a battery parallel. - positive to positive, negative to negative. - you keep the same voltage but double the capacity.

You beat me to my post with test results John.

Note I see your point and am thinking the same as you after I'd done the test.

A&B are negative wires.
C&D are positive wires.

So your thoughts regarding parallel jumping both negs AB and poss CD to make a parallel seems logical to me. Bravo if we are right.

Right here's what readings I get John.

A & C 13V
B & D 13V

A & B 23V
C & D 23V

I believe that is exactly how you explained.

Now down to the diodes. By removing the middle diodes will the night time draw current from the still battery be stopped by the 2 remaining?

I will draw an example and post before attempting to remove. Just so you can see if all as you explained.

Before you start, was the 13V in bright sunlight?

If so the 13V will be very low to charge a 12V battery, I would leave the panel as is and get a MPPT charger.

Jat,
I agree with John. You have shorted out half your panel.

Using John's lettering of the terminals, from looking at the diodes you can figure that A and C are negs, B and D are positives.

This is what I'd do:


The diodes in the red positives are blocking diodes. They are not there to stop the battery feeding back to the panel at night - the regulator does that. They are there to stop a lit half of the panel feeding back to a shaded or partly shaded half. You can do without them but in part shade conditions you lose efficiency as part of the output from the lit half is wasted bec ause it feeds into the partly shaded half, doing nothing but heating it. If the imbalance is sufficient you can damage cells in the shaded portion, so I recommend you leave them in.

When you remove those diodes from the middle the tails will probably be too short to solder on to without overheating the diode. You can buy new ones. They are 12SQ045 45volt, 15 amp Schottky diodes. You can get them, or equivalent, easily and cheaply on eBay. See here for an example.

Cheers

Jat

"Now down to the diodes. By removing the middle diodes will the night time draw current from the still battery be stopped by the 2 remaining?"

No, the regulator will stop back-feed of current at night.

Just confirming, you have to remove that link you put in, and also remove the two diodes between C and D. If you can cut the wires so you can re-use them in the red positives as shown, great, but chances are the tails will be too short to solder onto without overheating the diode and you will have to get new ones.

Join A and C directly and wire up the positives as shown, preferably with the diodes but it will work without - you leave them out to get the system going an retro-fit them later.

Cheers

I could be wrong often are, but looking at the diodes I think you may find the panel has three sections in series, one across A & B another across B & C another across C & D?

This probably explains why it was suggest you short one section, again I would go with a MPPT that can handle the voltage.

Thats not fair Peter. It was supposed to be easy. I now think I will be entitle to a refund or at the very least price reduction due to sellers blunder don't you?

Clever piece of art work Peter.

Why place 2 diodes on the one side (Red) and not the other (black) side? As in your photo?

So in the picture below the joins are right but I must put diodes in place.

Leigh, It was not my suggestion at all. Those photo's come from the seller! A quick fix instead of a proper solution. My tests show its inadequate.

There's that Peter again! He hasn't posted on this thread :-)

Firstly, a correction to my pic. If you use the diodes as shown you would have to remove the link at the red X below:



Leigh has raised a good point - there could be 3 sections, in which case I will have to revise my artwork again.

What is the measured voltage between B and C?

Cheers

Leigh, sorry but those readings were is near raining conditions. So ok don't you think. I got a Voc of 47V in perfect conditions on that panel. So by it being 37V today cloudy, I would imagine that it would read more like 18V on a good day Leigh.

But now you question the wiring because of where the diodes are placed? Even with the readings below do you still think B&C are joined to?

GREATER SUNLIGHT NEW READINGS INCLUDING B&C

A & C 26V
B & D 26v

B & C 13.3V

What do you make of that now?

Wasn't suggesting it was your suggestion, meant whomever suggested it, if you have three sections then you have a problem as you can't isolate the sections to parallel, even if you can then you would have two in parallel with another in series so would be of no benefit.

Cheers
Leigh

Looks like three sections in series to me!

Ok Frank - I swear somethings playing with my mind. Who put Peter in the signature and then took it out again? Maybe I am turning insane.
Sorry so Frank if you don't mind I'II just refer to you as either frank or peter. Lol

LeighW - Oh my, sounds all not worth the effort. So do I have 3 sections? With those readings I guess there must be.

As I wrote, I think you'll find one section is a to b, second section b to c, third section c to d.


The panel is really not fit for purpose as you won't be able to reconfigure it to get a suitable voltage and still get maximum output power.

I would be demanding a refund or a mppt charger that can handle the panels voltage, but I'm not sure if such a brute exists.

Cheers
Leigh

Last ditch effort maybe Frank or Peter" knows a way around this 3 panel section with the correct results.

More minds than 1 get better results,

Thanks to John, Frank & Leigh.

In the meantime will write an Email back to seller.

Sorry mate, I'm out of ideas. Whatever I think you could do now by way of testing involves disconnecting diodes and that would make it difficult or impossible to return the panels should you wish to do so.

I think your choices are now

1) Go for a refund. Product not as advertised and is not suitable. I think you're watertight there but you may have to press your case. I don't know how you'll go with the return freight and packaging - that could be a substantial cost which I don't think you should have to bear but is usually a condition of eBay sales.

2) Keep the panels, they are perfectly good, and change regulators. You might be able to negotiate a "good will" partial refund from the panel people to go toward the expense of a regulator change-over.

If you decided to return the panels you could possibly replace them with a smaller wattage that might still be sufficient but which would open up choice of regulators. If you could settle for 360 watts of 12 or 24 volt panels, then this one from Jaycar (and also available here or here on eBay) might suit you better than the GSL. Note that Jaycar and the second eBay link both say it WILL charge a 12V system from 24V panels. Previous models of this particular charger would not, but this is a new model. If you choose an eBay source, just be sure you get the new model. Some members of our Karavan Klub have used this reg and are pleased with it.

Cheers

Jat,

I hadn't thought of the possibility of there being three strings of panels, but I think Leigh is very likely right. Quick test : with nothing connected to the panel's output, measure short circuit current between A and B, then between B and C, then C and D. If all three are producing about the same current then you have three sections, and there's no easy way of getting the voltage you want. By shorting out one section as per your pictured jumper you'll get the voltage roughly right but lose 1/3 of your current generating capacity. (Another obvious way of checking - each section will consist of a string of cells running from near the terminals up to the far end and back again - if you have 6 runs of cells then you have 3 sections.)

As already suggested, an MPPT controller to suit 12V batteries but able to accept at least 50 input volts would be a solution.

I think you have pretty solid grounds for insisting that your suppliers (of both the panels and the controller) accept the return of the gear. If these are in fact 3 section panels then they can never be both 12V and 200W . The controller documentation is sufficiently wrong to justify return of the controller.

Cheers

John

Jat

You asked in Follow-up 7 above
"Why place 2 diodes on the one side (Red) and not the other (black) side? As in your photo?"

Sorry, I didn't answer.

The way I was using the diodes, they are like one-way valves. In a circuit, if you need a one-way valve you need it in only the supply, or the return, but not both.

Cheers

So to test the 3 section panel theory.do the following test.

panel in the sun..appropriate level of caution.

measure between each of the terminals.

Betya, you get arround the 10 ish volts between each section open circuit.

cheers

Much appreciated indeed. I think we all now expended our knowledge here. Nice bit of extra info Bantam.

The diodes are there to prevent the whole array becoming useless should the panel be in partial shade, ie if one segments is not producing any voltage the diode will conduct and allow the other two panels to keep producing some output.

Cheers
Leigh

Bantam, I believe it was Frank or Peter who suggested an MTTP - GSL. It wasn't quite what I was looking for as the display is separate.

I have done much research on regulators my system is not an everyday system. Needed for AGM 12V. 400 Watt.

All 12V
AGM Batteries 2 x 200Watt in parallel.
2 x 200 Watt solar panels. (At this moment 24V)
Regulator Dingo 4040 plasmatronics.

As its still christmas holidays I wont be able to do too much about anything till everyone starts back.

Jat

"AGM Batteries 2 x 200Watt in parallel."

In another post in the other thread you said you had 2 x 100Ah AGMs in parallel. Is that what you mean?

Cheers

I just had a look at Outbax eBay store. He is still advertising 200W, 12V panels and all the specs point to 12V.

So maybe tell him you want a freight-free exchange.

Cheers

Hi Frank, Is that right - so outbax has the word "12"V on there listings again. I have started a claim with paypal. Asking for money back. They never answer anything via paypal. So I may have to just escalate the dispute eventually. Unless they exchange for correct 12V panels or money back.

HI
As above, by Frank , BUT make sure you get panels with a PP around 17<18V OC V21<23V
DO not accept anything LESS than 17Vppp

DO NOT ACCEPT GRID CONNECT PANELS they too are available as 12V nominal



PeterQ

leigh w said.
The diodes are there to prevent the whole array becoming useless should the panel be in partial shade, ie if one segments is not producing any voltage the diode will conduct and allow the other two panels to keep producing some output.

Um I don't thing so.....the diodes are in paralell with the pannel segments that are connected in series.

I expect the left terminal as pictured to be the negative terminal and the right terminal as pictured to be the positive terminal.

If the diodes where connected in a star configuration from 3 x 12 volt sections this would be true.....but I think not.

My expectation is that they are diodes that protect the panel segments from back emf spikes that may come from the inverter or in the advent they are conected in reverse especially in series with other pannels like they are in many grid connect systems..
Hence the reason for them being fast acting shotky diodes and having them connected in paralell being permissable.

otherwise please explain how they operate.

cheers

Jat,

"Hi Frank, Is that right - so outbax has the word "12"V on there listings again. I have started a claim with paypal. Asking for money back. They never answer anything via paypal. So I may have to just escalate the dispute eventually. Unless they exchange for correct 12V panels or money back."

If I were you I'd go to the website and take screenshots of both the advertising pic and the specs. The advertising pic says 200W, 12V and the specs are ALL 12V specs.

If you have the screenshots, then they are in your posession for use in your claim if need be even if they pull the 12V stuff off the website. (I'm thinking your state govt consumer affairs/fair trading departments, etc, if no joy with the seller)

Cheers

Batman,

The diodes are across each segment, when the segment is producing power the diodes are reversed biased ie negative on anode positive on cathode, and thus turned off.

If one segment is shaded and producing no voltage the diode becomes forward biased by the segments on each side and diode of the shaded segment conducts effectively bypass it.

Cheers
Leigh

A&B - B&C - C&D all read the same equal readings.

LeighW wrote
"The diodes are across each segment, when the segment is producing power the diodes are reversed biased ie negative on anode positive on cathode, and thus turned off.

If one segment is shaded and producing no voltage the diode becomes forward biased by the segments on each side and diode of the shaded segment conducts effectively bypass it. "

That's the way I see it, too.

Here's a link to a good animation that explains it. Note the bypass diodes are across the panels, just like the diodes are across the three segments in Jat's panel.

There's another useful link here, too.

Cheers

All becomes clear now.

cheers

Update.

Rang -Plasmatronics (Dingo 4040 manufacturer) Will not accept return.
Rang -2 sellers of MTTP etracer and Tristar 45Amp MTTP

ALL 3 said return the panels. 12V all the way. Although MTTP will get around 20% more it can never be as good as an 12V setup.
I can use Dingo 4040 would loose 10% making the panels value round 2 x 180 Watts. MTTP controller 8 Amps each panel guaranteed 10 Amps perhaps sometimes.

Rang Outbax - 24V panels - Yes money back.
$28 to send both back with e-go.com.au good courier recommended from Outbax.

Now outbax can not supply 12V 200 watt panels. I can how ever for an extra $110 get sent 3 x 140 Watt panels - 12V of course.
Outbaxcamping 140 Watt 12V solar panels
How do the specs look to you guys - ok?
Not sure if they will fit either no room between. Must speak to fitter first.

Next
2 x 200Watt panels Bosch German $399 Each

Hi Jat
Both are 12V battery charging panels IF,they send te onesshown in the specs
Can be used with a PWM reg


PeterQ

Hi Jat,

I'm not sure, but I think the max power voltage (Vmp=12V) is too low for many MPPT regulators and will limit your choice or require extra investigation. These might be 12V grid connect panels that Oldtrack warned about.

I don't know the effect of these low voltages on PWM (non-MPPT) regulators. I suspect it will not be favoourable.

Cheers

Hi Jat
As Leigh & Frank have indicated
to charge 12V batterries with solar you need panels that have a ppp rating between 17 <19V AT THEIR RATED Watts
Sadly Grid type12V panels are widely advertised on Ebay as 12V panels
The voltage the with them @ rated ouput can be as low as 14V&<16V
!4v will never fully charge a 12V battery
16V will after a loooong time

Such panels can be used with a PWM reg
BUT the Reg must be matched to or be able to be set to 12V nominal

Dual voltage Regs are available which can be SET for the appropraite battery voltage AND panel NOMINAL voltage
ie EITHER 12v or 24V [NOT A MIX]

That means you cannot /should not use a 24v panel with PWM to charge a 12V battery
But you can use a appropriately rated MPPT reg to charge a battery bank with panels that are EITHER the same rated voltage as the batterries or a lower voltage battery bank

Put simply
A PWM reg must suit the battery voltage & the panels should be the same voltage

AV MPPT reg can be used with a PANEL voltage quite high compared to the battery
IT electroniically reduces the voltage to suit the battery voltage & in the process converts the paeloutputinto a higher CHARGE CURRENT than the PANELS output


PeterQ

What happens when you join 2 panels in series?

With those panels as seen above could you join them in series connection, which would double the voltage to 22v

But what would happen with the current?
does it stay at 16.67 (rated) each panel - doubling it to 33.34A

or 1/2 the rating to 8.33 making 2 panels max of 16.67 A ?

jat,

A series connection will double the voltage, but leave the current unchanged. A parallel connection will double the current, leaving the voltage unchanged.

Cheers

John

I was locked out of this thread till I got a mail for the link here.
Now that the new one is Locked - more clutter on a different subject. Continuing here.

Oh well.

One seller of solar systems and a couple here are saying the an MTTP will give out the Amps required. So down the 24V system to 12V and up the current to max. So would be just as good as having 12Volt panels.

Now what is wrong about that is the price - such MTTP controllers cost $300 more than the one I already have which cost me already $400 (dingo 4040)
So by keeping the panels as is, the cost is way more.

I have started a claim I get no response it will be escalated and paypal will decide.

I have asked seller for instructions to send them back but still no response. They will not be back fully till 2 week of January but ebay adverts say another story.

Noted that they are now only selling with pick up option only. But still advertising the same 200 Watt as 12V panels.

Jat,

MPPT controllers in the input range of 300 to 400 watts of solar can be found at about the same price as your Dingo, a bit more and in some cases a lot less, so don't write them off due to cost.

Again I agree with Leigh - MPPT controllers generally can't convert voltages up. And I don't think PWM can either, though there could be the odd exception to both, but if there were they'd be very expensive - I'd guess in the $700 or more range that you implied for MPPT.

Just get conventional 12V panels with specs similar to those Leigh quoted. I don't know if you'll find 200W panels like that but you certainly will find 180W panels Two of those in parallel will give you 360W, only a little (10%) short of the 400 you're chasing and will open up your choice of regulators, whether PWM or MPPT.

Cheers

I haven't been successful in finding an MTTP with the following at all.


*Must be MTTP 30 to 40 amps.
*AGM settings or changable.
* MTTP with display (Amps, load, charge, BatV) and can handle 400 watt array.
* MTTP with load input for equiptment.

Question? MTTP say 24V up to 720 watt
or
12V up to 360 watt.

My panels at 24V 400 watt - but 12 V battery system suitable? So what applies some say yes other saying no.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/310696704578

Looks too cheep to be right.

HI Leigh &/Frank

There are some makers of Boost MPPTs [available USA]
but I see little advantage.

A PWMs has no direct control /regulation of voltage & cannot boost the voltage

It is basically a voltage senstive electronic switch Full on while bulk charging then pulse switching as required for soak or float/

The rate of switching Hysterisis [differential] varies with quality
Some are quite slow [high Hys] & you can actually see the current/ voltage rises & falls
Other are very fast & the actual switching pulses are not readily detectable [except with a OS-- scope]

PeterQ

Jat,

You asked
"Question? MTTP say 24V up to 720 watt
or
12V up to 360 watt.

My panels at 24V 400 watt - but 12 V battery system suitable? So what applies some say yes other saying no."

If I understand your question correctly you are asking ...
"If a manufacturer specifies up to 720 watts of solar for a 24V system and 360 watts for a 12V system, where do I stand with my 24 volt panels?"

Answer to that is simple. Provided the specifications say that the regulator can accept both 12 and 24 volt panels to charge a 12V system, the panel voltage doesn't matter. It's the input watts that count.

As you have found, that doesn't apply to all regulators. Some regulators that can autodetect and charge both 12V and 24V systems, must have only 12V panels for a 12V system and 24V panels for a 24V system.

The specs for most 12/24V regulators say what the max solar voltage is, eg 50V. You have to find out if that means 24V panels are OK for a 12V system. It is not always the case and it is not always clearly stated.

If you end up keeping your current (excuse the non-intentional pun:-)) panels you have to find a regulator that will accept 24volt panels to charge a 12V battery AND will accept 400 watts of solar.

Cheers

oldtrack,

Yes, there's some really nice stuff coming out of USA.

I foundthis one when looking but on enquiry the international freight costs were prohibitive. It's not a booster but on specs it's a damn fine reg.

Ended up with the GSL for a few reasons
- Aussie made. Support in my home town.
- Re-programmable in case I ever want to upgrade to Lithium batteries.
- Fan cooled, so fewer mounting restrictions. IE doesn't have to be mounted vertical for convective cooling.
- Can accept virtually any panel voltage to charge a 12v system. That suited my series-parallel arrangement.
- Has a remote display.
- Right price

Horses for courses.

Cheers

Have found 2 possibilities.

http://www.aussiebatteriessolar.com.au/solar/regulators/30a-tracer-mppt-solar-charge-controller-regulator

http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/tristar%20mppt

Both need extra displays needed and no load connection.

Australian company GSL produce MPPT controllers up to 60 amps that will do all that you require including a remote control/monitor option.
They now also have one specifically made for LiFePo4 batteries.

Hi Brian,

Frank also has the GSL and says it is excellent.
I have looked into it, but the information is very limited. To the degree that I can not access it enough to know if it has what I am looking for.
I tried ringing them also away for the moment.

Jat,
Speak to luke and if you can't get him, speak to Mark.

There's a guy named Ken (I think) who stands in for Luke if Luke is away. He has no technical knowledge, he's just sales, so if you get him, maybe ask for one of the others or call back.

Cheers

You could also ask me some specific questions. As a long-term, rather technical user I can probably help.

Email: frankp79 at hotmail dot com

Cheers

15day money back guarantee is loud and clear on website.
http://outbaxcamping.com.au/warranty-returns

Via Paypal dispute Outbax without hesitation or reason rejected money back.

My Mail sent via Ebay.
Sorry if I repeat my message on every mail address of yours. But I am not getting reponces. If you didnt already know further tests show the panel delivered is a grid 24V not suitable for RV as the panel is divided in 3 sections. Which makes it impossible to change the wiring to be a 12V panel. The photo I recieved blocked the panels power to lower voltage which is not an acceptable solution. What I need is a 12V - 200 Watt panel.
The specs on the box do not match both of the panels delivered nor does it match the specs on your adds on ebay or on the outbax website. All totally different.

OUTBAX
We apologize for this, I have forwarded your case to our manager. But he is in holiday now, he will be back a week after.
He might answer some emails during his leave, and I also put this as urgent for you.

-------- ----------- ----------- -------------

As one panel of the 2 panels is installed from a professional fitter (although it has corner damage via transport it works) the easiest solution would be to replace my regulator to an MTTP how ever the cost is high.

Option 1.
I have spoken to the seller who will give a portion of my money back from the Dingo 4040 regulator by replacing it with the Morningstar TS 45Amp MTTP. A difference of over $300 / $450 would be outstanding.

Option 2.
Buy the cheeper china version MTTP at $300 and attempt to sell Dingo 4040 Which may recover most of money "if" successful.

Option 3. (?)
Have fitter uninstall panel and return back to seller. Cost of fitter round $100. Also return transport cost unknown?

- A VERY IMPORTANT POINT -
After inquiring about 200Watt "12V" panels. It seems that at least 3 listed on ebay may not be 12V at all even though so advertised.

"Quote:- Solarzone, There are no 12V - 200 Watt panels made that we have heard of"

Hi Ken,

Out of all the mails I sent to different addresses. (4)
info@, ebay@, paypal, ebay.
All i ever got was the same as your responce.

"We can not find any details of your order please provide details so we can look into it further."

After which I promptly returned the proof to everyone of those, never with any replies.
But strangely I got a response via ebay when a asked a question on an other product. Which eventually got me to the photo of modification from the owner.

Jat G

Sorry - I did not read the first paragraph of their warranty when I first looked (have not been terribly well or thinking clearly). I did not originally see what conditions they offered the 15 day money back under, but it is clear as you say in the first paragraph.

I could only suggest before you perhaps embark on a lot of extra cost and frustration you maybe send your order information once more to

sales@outbaxcamping.com.au
RE: Contact Form [SCC: 1110238]
Attn: Jason

Couldn't hurt and maybe now that the world is getting back to normal operating hours again you might just get something to happen. Especially if the manager is back at work (LOL) ....

Good luck whichever way you go .... this certainly turned into an unpleasant experience for you ... it irk's me to see this kind of response to a problem post sales.

As always the regular contributors to this type of thread have been forthcoming with good information and assistance.

Ken

Update.

Rang -Plasmatronics (Dingo 4040 manufacturer) Will not accept return.
Rang -2 sellers of controllers = MTTP e-tracer and MTTP Tristar 45Amp MTTP

ALL 3 said return the panels. 12V all the way. Although MTTP will get around 20% more it can never be as good as an 12V setup.
I can use Dingo 4040 would loose 10% making the panels value round 2 x 180 Watts. MTTP controller 8 Amps each panel guaranteed 10 Amps perhaps sometimes.

Rang Outbax - 24V panels - Yes money back.
$28 to send both back with e-go.com.au good courier recommended from Outbax.

Now outbax can not supply 12V 200 watt panels. I can how ever for an extra $110 get sent 3 x 140 Watt panels - 12V of course.
Outbaxcamping 140 Watt 12V solar panels

How do the specs look to you guys - ok?
Not sure if they will fit, no room between. Must speak to fitter first if he could fit them close together. Not so good for ventilation is it.

Next these would cost double.
2 x 200Watt panels Bosch German $399 Each

Would be great to get your expert opinion.
Don't get me wrong but its the size I have to get right otherwise I might have more options as it is going on a MWB sprinter

Here we go again, above sorry its already posted unknown to me until now.

Now this is how I see things.

So they are having another go at getting some more money out of you......if this is not bait and switch I don't know what is.

So they have fradulently sold you 24 volt panels, cliaming they are 12 volt...then they have tried to plam you off with a dodgey patch around..claiming it will make the pannels 12 volt pannles ..it wont.

Now they will give money back but not pay the freight on the panels they knew damn well where not 12 volt panels.

The problem with the panels is not yours.....AND they knew exactly what the issue was before they listed...AND...I betya they still have the listing up.....they have a pile of 24 volt pannels that cant shift and are trying anything they can to plam em off.

Now they are having another go and want another $110 out of you.

why would you even consider buying of these people again....

cheers

I agree with Bantam.

When I looked at the site during this thread they listed 200W 24V panels and they listed 200W panels seperately no mention of 12V. But when you looked at the specs on the 200W panel it read as though it was a 12V panel.

I would be angry enough to threaten them with consumer affairs (given they are Australian based) and if that dod not work I would take it to onsumer Affairs, especially if you have the screen captures of what was advertised at the time.

Good luck whatever you do, but the least is you should get your money back (might be worth losing the freight even though that hurts) and go somewhere else.

Ken

Hi Bantam and Ken,

So you think I should go for the Bosch panels from Aussie batteries then? They say "We have these panels made especially in a 12V version thats why they cost so much. ($200 each more)
Truth or not?

Hi Peter,

Sure had to do a lot of talking to convince them that nothing was going to change the fact that there panels where 24V and no modification could change that. In the end they did understand that I knew what I was talking about (Due to this forum Leigh, Peter, John, Frank, Eric very much appriecated.) Oh and I did mention ACCC which I rang - they suggested if return post would be expensive then seller should pay. At $28 it's ok by me.

Na anyway can I trust that they will send the advertised panels and are 12V? I think so. Should I, well Ken and Bantam thinks not.
Outbax have up to 10 day delivery from Sydney. Heh thats crazy.
The Bosch panels take only 2 Days to deliver and come from Queensland.

Try these guys, they are at Noosa Qld, freight free. Have been to there shop, good set up. eBay item number:

171103842015

Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,

Have seen these, but the size wont fit my Sprinter.

Needing 1340 max by 990 cm max. They look more square not rectangular so much.

Thanks for helping.

1580 x 810

Cheers Ross.

Ken & Bantam,

I have plenty of written and photo evidence of all posted 12V panels also the specs both on ebay (more than 1 user name) & on main website. A good case for consumer affairs.

"Quote seller: Yes we did have a batch go out like that - we are changing the website now as we speak." Note: As I pointed it out via ebay measage they changed it on ebay but not the website till the phone call. In other words no doubt that they knew and were covering there tracks incase I went to ACCC.

The sad thing is those who have bought them and have no idea.
Using 24V panels on a 12V regulator will get hot and die quickly it could even cause a fire. If they realize they must fork out heaps for a good MTTP regulator to make them work with a 12V system.

NOTE THAT ALL MONO 200 Watt 12V PANELS IN THE SIZE approx 1320 x 990 are NO LONGER AVAILABLE FROM ALL SELLERS ON EBAY. I HAVE FOUND TWO DOGGY 250WATTS 12V panels - AND HAVE ACCUSED THEM OF FAUL PLAY AND TO CHECK SPECS OR REMOVE. I have also reported one further suspect to Ebay strange all in NSW no other information on location. Mmmm.

Returning panels $45.00 which included $250 (16) insurance. Why am I paying this!

1 of the 2 panels I received was badly damaged on corners. But in good working order. They know about the damage.
Outbax:- Say the panel must be returned in a resalable condition. They are reselable as seconds in good working order. However the boxes specs do not match the panel.