DIY repairs and servicing

I don't think I said anything!

Have you worked for a dealership, or is it just another case of hearsay?
I worked for several dealer ships over almost 20 years & didn't see it happening.

My worst experiences have been from four wheel drive workshops, by far!

Yes I have worked in and around dealerships.

Of course you did not see it happening... neither did most of the customers.

Why can the local dealership that serviced my wifes RAV read a tyre plackard and inflate the tyres accordingly instead of 15PSI over.....how simple can that be.

Why did the three different dealershops that serviced my second hand hilux, before I baught it, not drain the oil in the front diff once in 260 000 + Km......I know none of them did.....the paint was in tact on the drain plug and the oil was black.

There are plenty of cases that are fact.....all to frequent fact.

cheers

I was General Manager of a dealership for 8 years, nothing happened that I didn't know about!
No, we weren't perfect, show me any human controlled institution that is, but we happily rectified any of our mistakes.

What was your involvement with dealerships Bantam, you seem to be an expert on most issues here?

Shaker
:Lots of things happen in dealerships which the manager know nothing about. To believe otherwise is a tad delusional.

I spoke to a manager of a dealership and told how I found MANY vehicles from his dealership which HADN'T had all their driveline oils changed, some for over 20,000km from new. He was surprised or appeared to be at least. He didn't like someone else finding out the truth or in fact knowing the truth.

In times past I worked for a couple of accessory installation companies..that took me into a hell of a lot of dealerships on a daily basis.
At other times I have done a variety technical work around various dealerships, auto auction houses and insurance impounds.

I am one of those people who curculates widely, and comes into contact with a lot of people and a lot of situations and I talk to people.

There is a range of mechanics, current and former dealers, auctioneers, detailers, auto electricians, accessory fitters, machinists and auto engineers among my relatives, friends, customers and aquantances.

I and most of my friends are serial used car owners who work on their own cars.

You talk about heasay.....the evidence is there to be seen.

When the log book has been stamped and signed.....you should not see black diff oil and uncracked drain plugs when that has been listed on the schedule.....many people have testified to finding this very issue on 4wd forums.

When an independent mechanic starts to do services on a dealer serviced, log book stamped vehicle...he knows what has been going on in the past.

When an independent workshop is asked to rectify or reinstall stuff that came back from the dealer not working..that is not hearsay.

When a particular independent workshop reguraly gets work to solve relativly straight forward problems the dealers can not..that is not hearsay.

When a former factory trained mechanic has to lean on a dealer to get something fixed under warranty...that is not heasay.

When a particular dealer has a long term reputation for short cutting servicing...and there are multiple witnesses to the fact...that is not hearsay.

When one dealer employee after another tells you straight faced about the pressure to push the work thru...that is not hearsay.

When you wait for a vehicle and it takes them less than a hour to do a $200 service.....or you wait much longer but you see the vehicle driven in and out of the workshop in less than 30 minutes.

You wonder what you actually got for you money and if they did in fact check all those things on the schedule or just tick & flicked em.

That is not hearsay.


Shaker mate...you may have been in a reasonably conciencious dealer ( they do exist) for 20 years...and good luck to you.

But they most certainly are not all like that.


There are certain towns and localities where the reputation of the local dealer is testified to by the presence or absence of that particular brand in the area.

There are certain locations where a dealer with a good rep has people driving significant distances and past other dealers to obtain good service.


As I say the standard of work is so variable......there is some good work done by good people...but there is also a hell of a lot of apauling work going on.

cheers

I had a client threaten to bad mouth us all over our relatively small town, because I told him a broken headlight wasn't covered under warranty!

So it's only the Ford dealers hey.


The reputation of many brands have been tarnished by dealers.

Locally there was a facebook campaign against a Hyundai dealer that also sells Holdens.

I also know plenty of others that bypass the Toyota dealer in the area.

How about the ZD30 dramas and the responses from the dealers with that.

Another mate drives straight past the local Holden dealer but won't go there.

It's also why I drive 60km and past 3 separate Mitsubishi dealers to get my ute serviced

Grow up

Problem is that 'once upon a time' there were people called Mechanics who learned their craft from watching and learning from their senior /elders who had learned the craft from their senior /elders and all took pride in their craft ,,,, Now in the present where the almighty $$$$ rules the 'learning' is done without the supervision of those who went before but from a 'service supervisor' who generally has not touched a spanner and got the 'required qualification' simply by reading a text book and is capable of generating a large profit thru charging $130 per hr by utilising a 1st yr apprentice on $9.50 per hr…….

well spoken John an Regina
with all the arm chair experts on this forum .how can there be so many people with vehicle problems . Some of the comments on here are laughable , the one above , good example , all my 42yrs in the trade , don,t know anyone who got a Qualification from a text book
mechpete

Yes there are good and bad in every profession, the trick is to find the good ones and avoid the bad ones. You often hear of the string of complaints about being not happy with what the dealer has done and yet they continue to use them. If their work is not up to scratch don't use them, I am on one of those capped price cheap service deals with my vehicle, only used them once and not happy with the outcome so prefer to pay double with a good private mechanic and know my vehicle is correctly maintained.

Johnny boy,
You must know me well. I have never, ever worked in an office sunshine and I have always done my own repairs on vehicles.

Just pointing out the warranty issue and some very, very poor workmanship.

Have a nice day and don't wear out your hand.

A childish response slow one.

Johnny boy...you sound like a wanker yourself...another negative comment...you don't want to deal with armchair wankers and yet here you are gobbing off again ....didn't take long for a thread to turn sour once the usual know all crew jump in...

Johny precious,
Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it - you're one of the first to whinge at others.
I’ve seen TV docos exposing brake service companies where they put the car on a hoist, just blow everything clean with compressed air but charged for a complete service.
In my younger days I knew a shoddy mechanic who serviced air compressors.
All he did was clean them down and give them a coat of paint before returning them to the mining company - charging them for taking the head off and inspecting for wear. He boasted “nothing ever goes wrong with an air compressor”.

My 4WD was dealer serviced since new. I took it to my private mechanic when the warranty ran out. He showed me evidence that the diesel fuel water accumulator had never been emptied – it was a scheduled service item.
There are some shonks out there.

Armchair forum experts and shiny bum technicians. Good luck.

I think you better get Regina to write your material sunshine. Boo Hoo

Congratulations John &
You have once again cast judgement on all the people who you have never met or know of their experience and capabilities.

Auto electrics is a limited field and is only one type of system in a motor vehicle.
A GOOD mechanic has to know ALL of them and in considerable depth of scientific principles and how they operate.

My qualification meant I had to know 14 different subject/system areas, in both theoretical and practical. Can still make a mistake though, but try not to at all times.
My qualification saw 4 out of 44 actually gain the qualification.
Many of them should also have been "Senior" mechanic rated to be able to attempt the above 2 day examination. To pass you had to gain at least 75% of all theoretical and practical abilities in EVERY system/subject and practical examination/test in order to pass.
(Auto elecs do not have to do anything like that.)

The real ratios. are 1 :11
That is 10, NOT qualified and continue to work in the trade.
That means 1 Does qualify and continues to work in the trade.

And they are the ones regarded as mechanics and not the unskilled/semiskilled, or apprentices in training, who work in dealerships, of which there are MANY.

Not a good ratio for the customer who is looking for a good mechanic.

Slow One has realized this and makes an appropriate comment.

I've seen plumbers & electricians exposed by under cover surveillance too, I expect there are a few here, any care to comment?

The qld government realsied that a very large proportion of experienced and licenced electricians, did not know their business.

They actually conducted surveys.
In particular
Many electricains did not understand the MEN earthing system.
Many electriians where not up to date on current reguations and standards.
and
Many electricians could not save a mates life that had had an electric shock.

SO

the licencing system went from licenced for life to 5 year renewal..subject to either an on line exam or a skills maintenence course AND a current CPR certificate.


Still...the standard of electrical work has suffered since self inspection was introduced.

There are still, a lot of older electricians out there who are not up to date...they get younger electricans or apprentices to sit the on line exam for them or help them pass and persist unusing the old yellow AS3000 from 1991, becuase they do not understand the current version.

Back in the 90's, it was prtetty well normal that every electrician carried a copy of AS3000....very commonly sat on the dash of the van.......it contained most of what an electricain needed to know.......back then the rules cost about $50.
Now the standards have been expanded and made more complicated and far more expensive.

A basic minimum set of standards that an electrician needs costs about $1000.
As a result...I have not seen an electrican with the standarcd in their hand on a job site or sitting on the dash of his van for ages.

The QLD law states that all live work must have an individually written risk assessment prior to commencement......but there are plenty of electricans out there who remain in the habit of working on live circuits because they are too lazy to find out where it is fed and turning off.


I could go on at length about what is common practice and some of the things I have seen that would frighten the Bjesus out of most people.


The legeslation has got a hell of a lot stricyter and the penalties have skrocketed....but the likleyhood of getting caught is so very low...the general electrical community has go very slack and careless.



Just a typical examle of the parlous state of affairs in all the trades these days.


AND this aint from the armchair...this is from working with these guys and seeing this on the job site.

cheers

Bantam - you amaze me.
I can’t understand why you, as an unqualified electrician, rant on so much about fully licensed electricians being incompetent.

That is because I am not an "unqualified electrician".
I am a licenced electrical worker and contractor, just not an "electrician".

In most other countries I would hold a full electrical ticket by now.....but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket.

I have to know a hell of a lot of what is required By a full ticket sparky, and then a hell of a lot more besides, I have to carry the same insurance as a full ticket sparky, and I bear the same responsibilities under the act as a full ticket sparky.

I hold more technical tickets than most full ticket sparkies.

For decades I have had to instruct electricians and know their business as well as my own.

I have by necessity had to know certain boundries and be able to quote chapter and verse, to prove that certain work I do, is my right with my qualifications and licences and that it is not "electricians work".
AND how to arrange installations so work is not "electricians work".

I install and maintain equipment and cabling right alongside electrical every day

I find it disturbing when I have full ticket sparkies come to me, and ask questions, because I know their rules and regulations better than they do.

I find it even more disturbing when I see work and work methods that are plainly and obvioulsy nothing like compliant.

I find it even more disturbing again when certain electricians tell me to my face that they know what they are doing is not compliant and they that don't care and they will do it how they see fit.

The underpinning principles of regulated electrical work are pretty universal and straight forward they apply and should be known just as well by an allied electrical worker like myself and a full open ticket electrician.

cheers

Bantam,
why can't you get a ticket. I have seen many adults do it through the system.

Do the blocks and practical + the documentation and RPL and there should be no problems, when you are deemed competent and signed off, you get that ticket.

Good crane driver mate in his late 40's has just been signed off as a fitter, under the same Queensland guidelines.

Bantam your quote
“but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket”
That’s rubbish Bantam – you can do an adult apprenticeship if you can find someone to take you on – it’s quite common.
I don’t know about Qld but in WA you would be classed as unlicensed, unqualified, a restricted license holder or something less than a fully qualified electrician.

Dennis,
Queensland is the same as WA.

There is one way and one way only to get a full electrical ticket in Australia and that is to serve an aprenticship....even if you are a qualified electrical engineer.
There is no trade test or RPL outside of that very narrow entry point.

A freind of mine that is about a year older than me who started as a railway apprentice about a year earlier than me now teaches and assesses electrical subjects at TAFE after over 30 years in the railways.

He ran me thru the whole process and it is, in theory, possible....in theory.
Knowing my experience and what I am capable of with RPL and accelerated learning I should have been able to knock over the apprenticship in 2 years. If and only if the employer was pushing the shedule.

A few years ago I gave it a red hot go, looking to get someone respectable to apprentice me.....I was even prepared to tolerate apprentce wages for a few years.

But there are a hell of a lot of people in my position with the same idea. Lots of them much younger than me. I've sat in the trade tests and eyeballed them at the interviews....and I got interviews.


Then there is the issue of group training.....there are very few employers who actually employ apprentices directly....the majority outside the large institutional companies are employed by group training organisations......their idea of a mature age apprentice is 25.....if you are over 40 you will be older than the managers in the group training companies....One group training office I walked into, I was old enough to be the father of everybody in the office.....and all women.....a midlle aged man goes over in a situation like a lead baloon........yeh been there...their profits revolve arround supplying cheap subsidised labour.....they realy are only interersted in young kids unless you can make a strong case or have a sponsor and you are under 30.

No there is no practical way a middle aged person can get a full electrical ticket regardless of their experience or knoweledge.

When I turned 50, I decided that it simply was not going to happen.

cheers

Quote.

Bantam your quote
“but the Australian electrical training and licencing system provides me no mechanism for gaining a full electrical ticket”
That’s rubbish Bantam – you can do an adult apprenticeship if you can find someone to take you on – it’s quite common.
I don’t know about Qld but in WA you would be classed as unlicensed, unqualified, a restricted license holder or something less than a fully qualified electrician.

I don't live in WA where anybody who turns up every day straight and sober is considered a good worker.
Yeh I've got mates working over there....they tell me how it is that is why they go there.

The government takes my money and issues me paperwork so I must be licenced.

As far as qualified......mate....people have been trying to tell me and other people like me we are inferiour to full ticket electricians for decades.......sorry mate it cuts no ice with me...I know I am better and more extensivly trained and smarter than most electricians.

My only regret is that I did not know about the restrictive trade practice that is the electrical regulatory system when I was 17.

If I did I would have got me an electrical apprenticship at all cost and my feet would now be firmly placed an the road paved with gold that is the electrical regulatory system career path..

A system run by and in the interests of the large electrical companies.


Appart from that mate...you can go and drop on your head.

cheers

Bantam,

I can appreciate your exasperation with the situation of attaining electrical licensing. You clearly have applied yourself to the objective and become totally frustrated. Bureaucracy can be so defeating. It was so much easier in my day.
I am sorry that I can provide no solution for you other than to make the best of your present career path which I presume is related to communications/data.
Sincerely, good luck mate.

OH...if there are some..smart electricians that know their business, have the aptitude and can give a damn...I have no beef with you...you will know what I am on about.

I know a few....a very few...electricians who realy know their business.......they confirm exactly what I say...and the standard in the industry frustrats them no end.

There are plenty of electricians out there, where the only reason they are not plumbers is they passed the optical colour test.



Its just a job and they are in it for the money

cheers

Bantam,
you are correct about the adult apprenticeship, one thing though, they will recognise prior learning that then shortens the apprenticeship, and that can be by quite a bit. So you can get a ticket as long as someone will indenture you. Linesmen often do it.

So stop feeling sorry for yourself and go do it. You were the one that stuffed up when you were young. Most of us choose our path in life and can change that, if we have the brains and want it badly enough.

Guess you don't remember when electricians got way less than brickies labourers, truck drivers and many other tradesmen, and that was probably when you were around 17. You most likely went for the bucks me thinks, as apprentices got way less pay.

Life is a bitch sometimes, but we make our own destiny. Even if we have been dropped on our heads.

Thanks Alan.
I've gone back to doing what I know best after a few of years doing other things.

These days fortunately I am being paid fairly well and working as many hours as I can tolerate.

Yes these days i would be classed as a communications technician (my actual first qualification), but the work is much broader than that.

what I do ranges from basic phones and intercoms, data, large antenna networks, large sound systems, av systems, thru to the lower end of television boradcasting.

we do pretty well anything the clients electricians wont.

We have just landed a refit on the sunshine coast.

cheers

Bantam,
if you have gone back to knowing what you know best, and you are qualified, you should then know that communications techs are in big demand in mining industry, due to the advent of remotely controlled machinery.

There is the opening, all you have to do is go and sell yourself.

"There is the opening, all you have to do is sell yourself"......err....umm...sorry, I fell off my chair...that's good advice for a number of professions. :-)

4x4, travel and camping please people. Lets keep it relevant to the core topics of the site.

Thankyou


The modsquad

Mate,
I couldn't agree more. This the first new vehicle I have owned and thought I would do all the right things. Boy was I wrong.

One of the big problems with new vehicles is, if you don't use them you don't get any software updates.

I just had a shed slab poured and the concreter has the same vehicle, he has had similar problems from the dealer regarding workmanship.

So far I have been accused of being a shinny bum expert amateur that uses his hand a lot. Ha Ha. This is in spite of spending all my working life in, around and under big noisy things.

Scott M
I know of one dealer, who is being taken to " the beak" as you say, and it is definitely fraud on quite a large scale, with multiple vehicles being involved. Same dealer has been in Fair Trading/NCAT more times than they have had hot dinners. Almost a weekly booking, perhaps a seasons ticket would be in order.
Both mechanical repair, severe trading law and registration law violations and financial deception too, just for good measure.

On a more pleasant note,
There are some good mechanics and also some honest ones who have a real"feel for engines" (and not a feel for what John & was referring to), they are in the minority though.

Hi Olcoolone
Your quote
“Yes I do have qualifications across a few fields and I do own my own successful business operating two workshops and a fleet of field service vehicles”
Whoopee do – I am suitably impressed.
I could tell you about my investments and qualifications - but really, who cares.
Everyone is anonymous on the internet – you could be a Nigerian transvestite for all we know.

Yeap I would of expected nothing more then a brain dead smart ass non contributing remark from someone like yourself.

If this is the calibre of EO forum uses it's time for me to move on and wish everyone the best, this site is getting so pedantic with that much in fighting and a handful of people who own this site..... Well think they think they do

This site is reaching new low in standards.

I take your remark as offensive!

Olcoolone,

I actually didn't twist your words but I may have been wrong in posting the exact quote.

What hit a nerve was the reference to certified workshops and warranties, and the dealers ramming threats and warranties down my throat.

To start with none of the dealers in this town are struggling.

Now in reference to my vehicle. The price was quoted at the very large and supposably reputable 4wd accessory establishment. I didn't pressure them about price or time, in fact I left the vehicle with them for a week with the words "I just want it done once and right" Well, this DIY person was the one who found all the faults and the faults were on everything the company had touched. It is up to the management to make sure there workmanship is up to scratch, no excuses about price or who is doing the work. There words were. You were unlucky.

As for the dealer, they had the attitude which was all about threats and warranty voiding. Their workmanship was also abysmal and down right dangerous in the sense of the unfused 16sq mm cable left floating in mid air with the REAL risk of starting a fire + the brake control feed being left off. They worked on it twice, and both times there were serious stupid faults. Again it is management who are not controlling the workforce and not the unsupervising apprentices.

In the case of the air filter, there is a real possibility of a dusted motor. Guess what, they would have denied they had caused the problem, and blame someone else.

Even the installation of the accessory by the dealer would void warranty as it was not connected to the correct ford earth point.

You seem to see it as an attack on tradesman. It is the account of what has happened, and if the blame lies with tradespeople or management, then so be it.

"Dennis Ellery", You must be a clairvoyant, how did you know I was a trench coat wearing Nigerian transvestite. Good skills.

Oldcool mate...good on ya.....at least someone is trying to keep the stsndard up.

As far as the qualified to unqualified ratios.

It is a pretty sad inditement that you are seeing a 20% failure rate of jobs from people who should know better.

As far as DIY workers.....the problem is you would not see any of the good DIY work from those who have made it their business to know what they are doing....be cause it does not fail and wont need your help.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there doing their own work...and that is nothing new.

It is also nothing new that there are plenty of rough as guts DIYers out there...and they know it..their mates know it.....we who come across their mistakes certainly do.

But there is a massive gulf between the standard or work by DIYers working beyond their care or limits and those who should know better.

cheers

I don’t usually wade into these arguments but I must say that your response (Olcoolone) is probably one of the best considered I’ve seen in quite a while and certainly paints a picture from a small business perspective. You also outline your experience and qualifications which provides credibility to the points you make and something that is required due to the unfortunate and un-needed nature of some responses, responses that add absolutely nothing to the debate what so ever.


I am not in small business nor do I have any trade qualifications. I’m probably what one of our resident red-raggers calls a “shiny bum”. I do try and do some minor works here and there on my vehicle but will be the first to admit that given my lack of skills, I prefer to have suitably qualified tradespeople do those things for me. As I don’t waste money on wine, women and song (more’s the pity) I am prepared to pay well for this work and the quality of the work is my No. 1 expectation. Yes I have suffered disappointment through poor quality work from dedicated 4x4 premises and also from Dealer service centres. I’ve had some bloody good work done as well.


By far, the worst problems I have encountered while travelling have always been on vehicles where people have insisted on doing the work themselves or had “backyarders” or mates do it. This is without exception, my experience in the Australian outback. Yes shit happens to even the best and most professionally prepared vehicle but, having had a consistent history of skilled tradespeople work on my vehicle pre and post trips, I can generally ensure that problems are identified prior to them happening. The advise provided is often invaluable and makes for a much safer trip all round. This level of consistency may well be lacking when we place cost over skill in our recreational pursuits. I need to make the distinction that many people have a lot of skill and experience but no qualifications and these people are great to travel with. I know that the blokes I travel with could crochet a remedy for broken suspension parts out of dental floss if need be but.... the intricacies of a modern, common rail twin turboed, computer controlled engine requires a degree of sophistication and expertise that can surpass even their miracle working.


My point in all this is that there is always a risk getting work done professionally or with an amateur, but my experience shows that the risk is always greater when it’s DIY.


As an aside, I spent many thousands of dollars preparing the electrical systems in my vehicle to ensure that I have a level of redundancy that ensures I have the best chance possible of making it back to civilisation. Much of this stuff doesn’t appear in a text book but was thought out by a qualified electrical trades person fluent in vehicle engineering, DC electrics and the rigours of outback travel. He took the time to speak with local manufacturers to ensure that his thinking around their capability was correct. The solution has been unmatched in quality and I have not even blown so much as a 10 amp blade fuse in any part of the system over the past 4 years of hard, rigorous travel. Very different from my earlier experiences with unqualified ‘experts’ while putting my first couple of vehicles together. It was worth driving my car 800 km for and I have had no hesitation in recommending his work to other members on this site who have been equally pleased with his expertise and service quality. Not cheap but worth it. Money well spent the first time round! I guess I’m one of the happy 15%.

Hi Olcoolone
Before I retired, one of my positions involved hiring out engineers and designers to mining companies.
Many were rejected for the lack of qualifications.
Some knowingly lacked the qualifications required.
Some didn’t even know they weren’t qualified.
Claims of qualifications on forums like this are unverifiable and should be treated with caution.
As for the Nigerian transvestite – I wasn’t trying to insult - it’s a joke

"My point in all this is that there is always a risk getting work done professionally or with an amateur, but my experience shows that the risk is always greater when it’s DIY." - very much the truth Mick.

All my travelling companions get the vehicles fully serviced and checked head to toe before any major remote trip. Best insurance you can get, in fact we insist on it.

Not meant as a criticism, one of the difficulties you face with a mechanic who isn't a 4wd specialist (and some who claim they are !!), is trying to educate them on the sort of conditions you are going to face on remote tracks like the CSR, AB Hwy, Rudall NP etc. etc. especially when you're getting them to do modifications. The concept of robustness and redundancy makes them think you're being a pedantic a-hole. :-)

"Sorry mate I want at least two latches on the canopy of this thickness", or "I want this diameter bolt with lock nuts" or "no mate - a single spot weld ain't gonna do it" or "please double check that bit of work as failure could be fatal" etc. etc.

Takes time.

Dennis, your response probably could have been delivered a little better and with more thought. In its initial form it comes across poorly.

Scott, couldn't agree more with you there. I've had issues with auxiliary fuel tanks from three manufacturers. Two, those who do nothing else but make these types of things, were very responsive. When I explained what the conditions were like out there and why (more people travelling on them etc), they realised that they would have been mad not to listen and take this into consideration. They sell a lot of products that will return to them pretty darn quick if they can't handle the rigours of those iconic outback trips like the Canning and Gunbarrel. There is never a quibble when I tell them I want extra mounting points or corner gusseting when I get them fitted.

Like a good butcher, dentist or hairdresser, when you find a good mechanic, you will always gravitate back to them regardless of the distances involved.

Cheers to you both,

Mick

Dennis,
I always took the Nigerian transvestite as a joke. Now where can I get some Hash cookies.

Most of travelling group have had this problem is degrees Mick. Bit hard when you're the layman tell them a qualifed tradesman how to do their job. :-)

"Yeah, I know you've got a lot of experience fitting out DMR/Transfield/council etc. trucks to their requirement, but with all due respect, unless you've travelled there you've got no idea what this is going to be put through..."

I usually tell them to imagine the worst corrugated road they've ever been on .... wait a while and then tell them to image 1000k's of that !

My basic rule from experience is:

"If it can vibrate it will wear, if it can wear it will snap eventually" - so either fully weld it or rubber mount it ...

I got to say that Olcoolone's post is on the money, even if he is a Nigerian Transvestite he has summed it up well

To counter the complaints about tradies , I have been told by a number of Dept of Fair Trading inspectors that they have a lot more trouble with consumers and their unreasonable expectations than they do with poor trademanlike work

No Dennis it wasn't the Nigerian transvestite part that I took as an insult........

Moving on what I find on forums is most degrading comments come from people who have no idea about what they are quoting about or were the cause of the problem lies or stems from.

Believe me there are many who work in dealerships and other places of repair who get very frustrated on the quality of work or parts use...... Unfortunately most of these people require a weekly pay check and if they become to vocal they loose that weekly pay check for not towing the line........ Many good ones simple move on or out the industry.

Making money is everyones purgative in life and it's the same for employers and business owners..... Some want more and some are happy with what they get.

One thing I am against is performance bonuses to employees...... Make them (employers) more money or save them money and you get a bonus at the end of the period, this is bad for the customer as it encourages the employee to cut corners or do things tat are not needed...... The employee looks at the customer as a cash cow who is going to fund the extra cartoon of bear next week.

People are a funny creature....... They want more but when it comes to giving they want to give less, they want top wages and conditions for them selves but are happy to force another business who employes people to do thing cheaper and pay less with worse conditions.



Slow One........ Dealerships and vehicle manufactures know they can not legally get customers to return to them for servicing and repairs and it is illegal for them to say different; this is enforced by the ACCC........

But the condition of warranty is all servicing and repairs has to be done by a qualified tradesman or registered business in that field.... And not Mr Joe Backyard the florist.

If there is a problem with the work the qualified tradesman or registered business in that field does then there is a legal claim for associated costs and rectification, something hard to do with Mr Joe Backyard the florist.

The other thing you have to understand is the legal ramifications there are if something you do goes pear shaped compared with a qualified tradesman or registered business in that field does........ You hear people on this forum asking about brake repairs and wiring trailer brakes...... If something goes wrong due to there (DIYer) work or advice that has been given to them then and someone gets hurt or killed there is a good chance of a big fine or jail term for all involved including the forum owners and the person giving advice (hence why I against giving some advice).

The same applies to qualified tradesman and registered businesses in that field...... But the difference is they have insurance and can fall back on their qualifications and competency.

Did you know it's not illegal to change a powerpoint or plug on the end of a 240v cord...... But it is competency based, if it goes pear shaped they (the authorities) will be looking for competency proof..... And youtube or Google doesn't count....... But if you have done 30 of the same for your employer then your deemed competent, you will still get raked over the coal, maybe a fine and jail but it will be less server.

Think of it like the guy or girl at the vacuum cleaner factor who fits the 240v power cord....... They are not qualified electricians but the do have competency for the task.

This can also apply at dealerships where competency can be classed as qualified...... A tradesman must reach a certain competency level before being signed of on that task....... Doctors and dentists are the same.

Everyone is looking for someone to blame including the authorities and it won't be long before insurance companies do the same...... It's getting to a stage whereby individuals are dealt the same as big business.

So if I have come across arrogant in some of my posts I apologise BUT i will alway take the stand that some things should just not be asked on a forum if you have no idea of it...... And especially if it can cause injury, death or financial hardship.

And I'll stand behind my view of doing it right the first time.

One last thing on the four dealerships in your area doing alright....... Obviously you have made this assumption on the outside view, smoke and mirrors can mask a lot of underlying problems.

You don't really know the real financial situations of the dealerships, how much money they have borrowed or re borrowed,what assets they have had to sell to stay afloat or what loans they have altered or funding they have and how much they own the creditors including employee entitlements, Workcover or the ATO what future plans they have and how close they are to folding..." Yeap paint can hide everything.

Anyone can have a new sports car, a big boat, a expensive house and all the luxury trimming with a beautiful wife and perfect kids...... What you don't know is how perfect is it and what lies underneath..... For all you know they might have a $3 million mortgage with credit card maxed out and struggling to buy new shoes for the kids....... But to you they look well off and perfect....... Something your envy of and wish you had........only if you knew the truth.

We have had 6 large companies we do work for go into administration in the last 4 months, 1 still trading and the other 5 gone for good...... Plus the other 4 last year....... Some Places are doing it tough.

When you had a look at these companies from the outside they were booming with good contracts, newish equipment and plenty of staff...... The only time we knew something was wrong was when we got the dreaded letter from the administrator. When you read through the creditors listing and see what they owed you were gobsmacked...... $8 million owed to the creditors, $700,000 secured and $300,000 of sellable assets..... But on the outside they were going great!



Mick O....... John is a remarkably talented guy...... Don't know about the floss thing but I know he can knit a stove out of steel wool.

Seeing him tomorrow..... Something about a thick sump guard he wants me to bend for some 100 series.....

And by the way your warranty expired last week. LOL

I got sick and tired of reading on here about shonky work and I can do it better....... Most people don't see, understand or know how a business functions or associated parts operate. that's why I replied how I did.

The bantam....... Yes there are still people who want to do it properly and there are still people who teach how to do it properly..... Yeas I an anal and the people who work for me would say the same.

It's funny how people who do shonky work seem to stick together and the same goes for those who do it right.

The buck stops at the boss and it's the boss who has the final say on how something is done..... Some bosses don't give a dame are are profit driven and other bosses do give a dame and won't compromise their own name, business name or reputation.

The hardest thing is quality and skills come with age and so does wages...........younger workers + less wages X more profit or competitive edge divide by what the majority of people want = poor workmanship now and in the future.

Most of these people have never been taught the right way of doing something and why........... Zinc plated bolts used in corrosive environments and stainless bolts used it hight tensile applications....... Why do you use. 8.8 bolt instead of a 10.9 and vise versa.......

We use SikaFlex in a lot of sealing, many still use silicon and wonder why it fails in a few years.......try telling some who should no better silicon doesn't bond to plastic....... Primer and deburr holes you drill......use a snug fitting convoluted tubing, if not it can rub through the very wires your trying to protect........ All these things are not taught and many don't know the pros and cons...... It's sad......really sad.

Australians really need a kick up the as...... As we are very capable of quality work but most have a care factor of ZERO..... Think they work in poor conditions and are under payed.

I would agree with most of that Olcoolone, except your ..........

"Did you know it's not illegal to change a powerpoint or plug on the end of a 240v cord".

Actually that is illegal unless you hold an appropriate licence, generally a "Restricted Electrical Licence" as a minimum. Exemptions apply to appliance manufacturing assembly lines.

Sure, Bunnings will sell you a plug top complete with packaging providing fitting instructions, but fitting it is limited to licencees as Bunnings disclaimer signs will tell you.

Arrhhhh... This is where this competency thingy comes into play, it's illegal to fit a new GPO unless your qualified as part of your qualifications is design and installation but replacing a GPO as long as your competent and if some goes wrong you can prove you followed acceptable standards it is legal.

The electrical act is a funny one as it is mostly to do with industrial/ commercial applications and then there is the rule of thumb.

Under industrial/commercial there is a limitation on the number of GPO's one can run off a sub circuit....... In residential there is no limitations as long as you have two or more sub circuits. But there are other parts of the standard that comes into play.

Now if you bought 25m of flex and put a socket on one end and a plug on the other end that is illegal as it comes under the design factor...... Buy a lead all ready made, cut it in half and put a plug and socket on it that comes under competency.

Competent and qualified is such a grey area...... You can have someone who is qualified but not competent and the can be prosecuted and you can have someone not qualified but competent who doesn't.

Bunnings have the signs for a very good reason...... It's called legal liability reasons and we warned you!

It's nothing to do with the standards or anything else......just legal liability.

As alan B posts.

At least in QLD ( the act I know)
What constitutes "electrical work" is explicitly defined in the act, and a unlicenced person most certainly can not replace a power point or change a plug on a cord legally.

There are some specific case exemptions....but very few.

Under the old QLD act there where some very interesting exclusions.....like engineers and primary producers.....they all went away with the a current act.

You could be the 30 year experienced masters degee engineer that designed and managed the manufacturer of a companies whole, range of power points, light switches, plugs and sockets.
But in this country without an electrical licence you cant legally do a damn thing.

cheers

In NSW anyone can go and do a 1 day course and be qualified to test and tag electrical appliances and replace plugs if necessary
Other states may vary

Yes Alby, I think that can apply in other States also. It is one of the "appropriate licence, generally a "Restricted Electrical Licence" that I referred to.
But as I said, to be legal, you still need a licence, even if it one simply obtained by completing a course of several hours.

To be honest Olcoolone, I am a little out of touch with current regulations being retired, although I once held a South Australian electrical licence (and Vic, NSW and Qld.)
So maybe the regulations have changed but it would surprise me if they have changed in the direction of relaxation in this era of "Regulation".
And I do realise that you are not promoting relaxation of electrical standards any more than you would endorse inappropriate works standards on vehicles or elsewhere. I recognise the quality of work that your company performs and endorse it.

Yes, I realise that "Bunnings signs" are for reasons of legal liability etc. but it relates to Regulations, not "Standards". It is the Government Regulations that control these matters and which refer to various Standards as part of the Act.

In fact, I doubt that anyone is likely to be prosecuted for replacing a plug-top, but doing so incorrectly can produce a lethal safety hazard.
I personally know of one fellow who damn near electrocuted his wife simply by transposing the active and neutral connections on a GPO.

But we are getting off-topic methinks.

Allen,
good thinking about the electrical side of things.

To be come an electrician you have to be competent in a number areas you will encounter whilst being an electrician but you can also become competent in one area you'll be working in and not the other area..... But you will not be qualified as an electrician......If that makes sense.

There are so many specific industry based qualifications available and some you only have to a member if that industry group to obtain it.

Competency comes in many forms including on the job, class room, recognition of prior learning and time based.

I have signed off on a few on my guys trade school subjects to saying they are competent in what they do....... Last week we got approached by one of our big customers to do the same for one of their apprentices because they don't do work in the subject.... We do it for them.

It's no different to how it use to be done in the 50's, just that there are more RTO ( recognised training organisations) who you can apply to.

When you do a trade now you have set subjects that can not be altered but you also have a fair few elective subjects they have to do..... These elective subjects are from a number of different trades.

An apprentice motor mechanic can also get qualifications in food prep, hygiene and a raft of other weird stuff.

As for electrical this is how people who repair power tools, generators and some other stuff get away with it..... There are stringent rules they have to abide by.

People have to make their own judgement on there competency on stuff they are going to try and do....... I think it makes a big difference if it is part of your work BUT the risks are much higher.

If in doubt seek help and get a professional AND don't rely on Youtube or Google for qualified advice.

You cant get a restricted electrical licence in a one day course.

You can get a competency certificate that allows you to test and tag......finish end story.

It does not allow you to do electrical work, even work as simple as changing a plug on a cord.

AND there are restrictions on who's and what equipment you can test and tag....and what testing equipment you can use.

A Restricted electrical licence requires a related trade pre-requsite and additional training & assessment.

There are several levels of restricted licence ranging from plug and cord electrics to 3 phase disconnect / reconnect.

cheers

Honestly, every third thread on this site turns into a bun-fight over electrics and licensing. Getting a bit tiring.

Take it here folks if you need to....

http://www.electriciantalk.com/

WHAT THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO THIS FORUM?
It used to be a fantastic source of information for travelling this great country.
Now it's become a mixture of arguing, whinging about products & services , or where can I screw the lowest price & then whine about lack of back up.
How come other forums can have discussions on things like solar, fridges, batteries etc, without descending into gutter level arguments, time for the Moderators to do their job!

Let's get back to how it was & leave the whinging for sites like Not Good Enough!

Gutter level!...a tad emotive and some what inaccurate and probably not a true reflection of the content of the 107727 other posts on the Exploroz forum.

That said, lets keep it relevant please people. 4x4 camping and travelling in case you need a reminder. Nothing is being advanced here and it's all getting a tad repetitive and off topic.

Thank you

The squad

"On another note, I think the Exploroz shop should stock some chill pills....." - amen to that

It would be better if they sold some Hash cookies.

Or as my dear old mum used to say "A Bex powder and a little lie down" always help.

As always, it is just those special few time and time again. Not much positive to say, add no real value, deliberately inflame or troll, always the first to fling an insult or denigrate someone else, promote Nigerian scams and drug use and should be finding the "grumpy old couples" forums to add nothing there instead of here.

It's always the same few!

You can get away with using non genuine parts as long as they meet or exceed the OEM part.

But OEM parts are not much more expensive the non OEM and in some cases cheaper.

But it is a good idea to use OEM just in case of a claim...... One hurdle your all ready overcome.

In vehicles less then 10 years old we still use OEM coolant and the same goes for radiator hoses.

OEM parts are very competitive...... Unless you want to penny pinch.

Good that Isuzu are paying attention and acting on your problem.

Most dealerships it's the person your dealing with who is the problem and not the whole dealership...... Unless you own a BMW or Merc!

Alan,

I would agree with much of what you say. I also have had both good & bad experience with Dealers, just as I have had good & bad experience with independent workshops. It's probably 50/50 but certainly I do not have sufficient data sample to provide a quantitative analysis and probably neither does anyone else.

The significance between Dealer and Independent perhaps lies with there usually being a choice of only one Dealer for your brand in your district whereas there may be a number of independent workshops to choose from. Having found, by reference or experience, a quality competent workshop one would almost certainly stick with them and develop a good relationship to mutual advantage, something more difficult to achieve with a Dealer.

It took a couple of attempts but I now have a trusted 4x4 workshop for the Troopy where the two owners are also the mechanics, together with a couple of well supervised apprentices. Now the Camry will be serviced there as well. Besides it is way cheaper than the Toyota Dealer workshop.

If I did have a problem with my independent workshop I would be happy that I was dealing with the proprietor directly than a Dealer Service Manager.

Allan

Probably also comes down to location, small towns compared to cities where ther is a choice of dealers. If your not happy you have a choice and can change. living in the city I can just find another dealer if i am not happy.


Amazes me that people have bad experience with a dealer so all dealers of all different makes get tarnished with the same brush. Yet when there is bad experience with a smaller independant people just find another workshop. They certainly dont then tarnish all independants the same.


Alan

I have had quite a few new cars over the years and have always found dealers to be the worst when it comes to servicing.

They are happy to charge you a premium, but aren't always as keen to complete the servicing as it should be, but rather they tend to skip over things to cut down time and maximize profits.

There are many stories from plenty of others who have also had bad experiences with dealers, with work not being done as per the book.

Mechanical workshops such as the one I now go to, need to be on the ball and do the job as it should be done, they are small and I would assume rely heavily on word of mouth recommendations for quality workmanship.
They can't afford to stuff up because that same word of mouth recommendation can have a very negative affect on their business.

evaredy
I made a dealer principal realize that the number of drivelines not being serviced ie change all oils, was easily known to be happening.
I pointed out to him he would/should be able to work it all out by the amount/quantity of driveline oils, he WASN"T using at his dealership, for the number of vehicle being serviced.
He then realized people do take notice of dealer servicing. Same Marque as yours

Yeh that only works if the people doing the servicing aren't theving the oil they don't use.

cheers

Many dealers carry on about the need to have them service the car, because they have all the proper equipment. They also convince people that they have to take it there because of the cars computer system, they also go on about the need for genuine parts etc.

Because of this, many people still think they need to take it to the dealer for the servicing. They don't understand or realize that they can take it to any mechanic, as long as it is serviced as per the book and genuine parts are used.

My daughter is one of them, she recently bought a second hand car, it still had some warranty on it and she told me the dealer told her that she had to take it back to them for the servicing. It took some time to convince her otherwise, because she was scared she would loose her warranty if she took it to anyone else.

I understand they like anyone else want to make money, but I disagree with the crap they dish out to people, then they do a shit job and charge a fortune.

I estimate I have saved 50% on service costs by not using the Land Rover dealer...checkmate, game over. :-)

Oh Mike, not so fast on the check (mate).

Apparently, after I took delivery of the Land Crusier the Land Rover specialist went into a tail-spin trying to work out how he is now going to fund his retirement – and if that wasn’t bad enough he’s had to cancel those annual holidays he was taking in the south of France!

Maybe you can help him out ;)

Cheers, Baz – The Landy (Oops)

The first service on my new Land Rover in 08 with only 12k on the clock cost me $550 at the dealers. Not bad for an oil change. The second service at 24k was $950. This was on a new car that wasn't even a year old. The average cost since then at my local has been around $300 and that includes a few brake replacements. You can only gasp at what a dealer would charge for that. If I am going to be taken for a ride either way, I'll take the cheap seat. I've had 13 services since the dealer experience saving around $5000-$6000 :-)

And I think your comment on the “cheap seat” is key to my point and some of the other points being made in this thread. For me it is about getting value for the money I pay, less about what the actual amount is. Actually arriving at a point where this can be properly assessed takes time, whether you are using a “dealership or specialist” and presently I’ll run with the dealership on standard servicing.

The two Land cruiser services I have had to date (10,000 & 20,000 kilometre) has cost a total of $600 under fixed price servicing – cheap or false economy? Only time will tell, but I am monitoring and keeping an open mind on dealership vs. 4WD specialist servicing, but there are sound reasons to lean towards the Toyota Dealership network.

My other point, albeit slightly tongue-in-cheek (If I didn’t laugh – I’d cry) was that I found there was nothing cheap about owning a Landrover, no matter who you use to service or do work on them! And rest assured I am well qualified to form this view point after owning three Landrover Defenders…

Thanks for your thoughts…

"There was nothing cheap about owning a Landrover"....100% agree on that. :-) Still, I'm glad I have owned one as I am about my Jeep, it's all an experience. I like them both but will probably move on when they hit 300K. I'd take the fixed servicing at that price too. Cheers.