Diesel fuel additive.. Yes or no

Thanks Bill, is chem tec like an algae killer substance? Bloke I work with, has a landcruiser ute, v8 turbo diesel, had his water watch go off a few times, was found to have algae contamination.. And has been using an additive, vehicle only had about 30000km on it, first time it went off. Just interested to here what people are using, and benefits.. Thanks for reply.. Btw, mine is a 150 prado.. Cheers

Odog,
As I said, haven't had to do any work yet, so I'm not sure what benefits there are.

Trucks use a variant of Chem-Tech and my diesel mechanic swears by it. Algae, water, cleans fuel lines, lubricates pumps are some of the claimed benefits.

I trust him and I did buy a HJ60 off him with 350,000kms on it that ran like a new one. So I have kept using it.

Like others say, if your injectors and other fuel links are clean or working longer than normal, it has to be the difference.

I have done the kms with the Focus (touch wood) with no problems so I don't think there will be a backlash.

I had a KZ 2003 Prado, that I started Chem-Tech on it at 270,000. By 310,00, the fuel consumption had improved from 15k/100 back to 13.5k/100 pulling a little van and there was a noticeable difference on hills and unladen pickup.
It also had a clean throttle body where before hand it was black with soot.

I am hoping that the additive will clean the EGR and associated bits as well.

My sump on the 120, is clear (pulled it off at 70,000km) to check for gumballs and I am thinking that the additive should soften and dissolve any deposits in all areas where fuel and perhaps exhaust goes.

Not a scientific thought, but heh, it might work!!

Will not know until I do some strip down repairs.

bill

Thx Bill, that's good info, I'll have a read on the chem tech. Sounds like it is an all in one fix.. Thanks

I think your warranty may be at risk if used in the common rail diesel.
Please see this thread I started on Pradopoint http://www.pradopoint.com/archive/index.php/t-12780.html

Pedro

Seeing as you put that thread up Peter, where you thinking of fuel additives, oil additives, both, and / or other ?

I have been using Castrol 2T Activ in my fuel at 200:1 since 50k, and I use the dose of Nulon Diesel engine oil additive to the oil when serviced.

Both do make the engine run smoother and quieter.

Les PK Ranger, it was fuel additive, and was prompted by the fact the dealer had put in an additive prior to me speaking to diesel specialist.

The specialist did say that older engines could take the additive but not the new common rail.

As you will note in thread the dealer gave me a written undertaking to be responsible for any costs caused by the additive.


Pedro

Ta Peter, I did notice my Ford dealer added a fuel additive $6 or so at the 10k service.
I didn't ask for it, and due to a couple of errors in servicing, I have never been back to a dealer for these since.

Using 2SO in the fuel, I see no way it can harm anything in any diesel system.
In a 126lt tank I add just 625ml, and the right 2SO it is totally soluble.
As a mineral oil it just burns, and can't be any dirtier than diesel.
Certainly quietens down injector noise, and supposedly lubes pump etc.

Sorry Peter, meant to say, on your prado point thread, in relation to the winter mix diesel for up the mountains, I used to work at caltex depot here in Canberra, we would pump a couple of rail way cars 50000-70000lts each, into the main diesel tank ( couple of hundred thousand litres ) straight heating oil, it would mix with the diesel, and stop it gelling up under cold conditions, so all servos including local would be running a mix of heating oil and diesel... Maybe that explains the rattle we get in our engines in the winter.. Lol Cheers

Always wondered what they put in the mix for winter diesel, good old heating oil hey ?
What ratio, do you recall ?

Sorry Les, was 25 years ago.. Wow we're has it gone.. Am I that friggin old.. Ha. No mate don't think there was any real formula, it was just, "yep righto, that rail car will fit into that tank" was more about storage I guess than worrying about mix quantities.. We would unload 8 cars at once, 16 cars in a load, once a week I guess.. Put it where it fits, as long as petrol n diesel don't get mixed. Think storage tanks were half million litres, up to million or so. Cheers

No worries Odog, sounds like no real science to it back then, maybe not that important.
But I imagine today there'd be a ratio of whatever they use now.

Alpine diesel: http://www.caltex.com.au/sites/caltexenergynsw/documents/winter%20diesel%20faq.pdf

Thanks, I think I have seen that before, but good to read again.
While it doesn't say what they actually add, it has probably progressed from using 'heating oil' as an additive :)

What I did find interesting is that the Alpine mix resists clouding only 4oC lower than normal diesel, would have though it would be more.
Could be that regular diesel is ok down to - temps ?
Alpine can get quite a lot below 0.

I know some guys who only fill with AD when they plan on parking overnight.

Falls Ck as an example would be cold at the height of winter at -5 overnight.

I've camped at 4 Mile Hut in the Snowies when it got down to -14. Wish I'd had the human equivalent of AD! Thawing the leather ski boots out in the morning was, er, memorable.

AFAIK, pretty much all servos anywhere near resorts sell the alpine mix.
Usually advice is to get to near the destination with as near empty tank as possible, and fill up.
As fuller tank as possible best when you park.

Yep. They only sell Alpine.

I was at Falls Ck today in the Vic alps. It got down to -9 last night and roadside assistance was very busy in the morning. Neither Alpine diesel nor additives *nor both together* stopped the wax from clouding at that temp.

Very odd Sigmund.
It routinely gets to well below 0 often in the alps, and -9 or more is not uncommon.
Cars literally buried in snow on mid week stays must get down to extremely low temps, like a deep freeze.

Les, the locals say that -9 is unusual.

And snow can work like a blanket. Antechinus up here in winter survive in tunnels in the heath that have a temp a bit above freezing.

Thanks Ross, need to do more research, it is a shot in the dark I guess. The idea of 2t oil in the fuel maybe worth it.. But that saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! But for long term, who knows? Cheers

With yacht diesels the algae ('black bug') grows in the water condensation which is hard to completely eliminate so an algicide is added when tanks aren't used for a while.

Geezs with the number of CRD Prado, Hilux and Hiace on the road these diesel places must be booked out for months on end replacing injectors..... surprised there is not a world shortage.

SShhh keep it quiet...... you don't want the general public to here it as it will make selling then hard.... you will have to give them away.

Why is it with the many who own theses money pits on dedicated vehicle and 4x4 forums you only ever hear of a few now and again..... I would expect more to winge on a public forum.

Pradopoint is a good example, must be thousands of regular contributors on there with the D4D engine....funny how only a very small number are vocal about it.

I see more people who don't own them complain about it. jealousy is a sad thing!

Yeh you can piss on the idea all you like, it does not change the fact that common rail diesels ARE far more vunerable to damage to the fuel system due to fuel contamination.

It is known, it is proven and it does happen.

While the number of peopel who experience damage to their fuel system may seem small....the number who go and post about it on forums will be even smaller.

The fact is it does happen and the costs when it does are rediculous.

cheers

It's just the signs of the times and an evolution that may take a while to rectify.

I can remember diesel pumps and injectors getting pulled out every 3-6 years with some costing 3-4 grand back in the 80's and 90's..... that was 1/10 of a new house or 1/6 of a yearly wage.

If you gathered the real data of then and now it is probably not much different.

Most that are failing today are at that 6+ year mark and a few have failed much sooner, no different to back in the 80's and 90's

Like anything, new prices will as they are now come down greatly.

A lot have short memories.

I hope the whole common rail technology matures soon.

Its taken nearly 30 years for the petrol motor to recover from the introduction of polution gear.....some of the early post polution motors where absolute dogs compared to their non polution gear predecessors.

As it stands as a group the cureent petrol motors are some of the most efficient and reliable machines ever made.

I hope the common rail diesel does not take that long to get sorted out.

cheers

Hey Serendipity. Must do the job, how much, or what ratio do you use? That is the old school 2 stroke, being mineral based I guess? Be interested to give it a go, just to see if does make it a bit quiter, no harm in trying it, don't really notice that much of a rattle really, but just to see. Thx.

That would be injector rattle.

The right 2SO is important, full mineral type, anything full or semi synthetic is no good.
Castrol Activ 2T is the one I use (bought by 20lt drum), it is JASO FC low ash grade, and I believe there is a good Gulf Western one around same specs, just the Castrol is more easily found.

You can get that in as little as 1lt from Supercheap, 4lt too.
Use at 200:1, very little in the scheme of things.

Try it, and see if you can pick when it hits you engine (smoother, quietens down).

Thanks Les, think I may wait till the warranty is up, then I'll check it out, thanks for the feed back. Cheers

I am currently using Gulf Western from Supercheap with a 200:1 ratio.

The sound is injector rattle but only gets bad when not using the 2T oil.

Sometime in the next year I will update my injectors for the newer diamond like coating tip ones that came out 2010 and after. The choice will be from toyota or from Baileys Diesel. Not sure if they have the injectors for 70 series yet.

I also make sure I keep my fuel clean with a water watch system and using a Mr Funnel whenever I am refueling from jerry cans or dodgy places.

Cheers

Serendipity

Hi Bantam
Can you see any problem with any moisture in the fuel being converted into microscopic particles so that it can go through combustion process? as stated buy Fuel Doctor. I have been eyeing this product for a while, just wasn't sure about that part. Do you use the Fuel Doctor and 2T at the same time and do you ad Fuel Doctor as per the specified amount each time you fill up. My vehicle is a Toyota 1HDFTE.

Blue, apparently this happens through the normal air intake too, anything that gets through the snorkel and air filter goes through ok.

I don't run fuel docxtor and 2 stroke at the same time..thought I have heard of those who do.

The 1HDFTE is a conventional fuel system so you don't have the issue of extreeme sensitivity to water in the fuel that a common rail system does.

Conventional diesels will tolerate relativly small amounts of water in the fuel system ......conventional diesels have filters and water traps that while not perfect will prevent large amounts of water getting into the fuel system.

Even then....getting large amounst of water into a conventional diesel injection system may not be fatal.....just requiring the system to be drained and blead.

where as any significant amount of free water in a common rail system is likley to require a rebuild because of the narrow tolerances and the rediculously high pressures.

back to the fuel doctor.
look at their videos and their web site ( though it is not as comprehensive as it was pre castrol buy out)..I am not sure of the process, but the water does not seem to be "imulsified" which would mean just mixed with the diesel.....it would seem that it is more intamately combined......others may know more.

One thing to understand with the two stroke in diesel......is that it is oil in oil.......it is not any sort of.....um.....foreign additive with a specific chemical action.

It is just another fairly similar oil to the diesel...further more it is an oil specifically designed to be burned cleanly ( particularly good quality product).

One benifit that has recently come to my attention, is that modern good quality two stroke will have additives that are designed to surpress carbon buildup ( a problem in two stroke engines).....It seems to help with carbon issues in diesels too......more hard evidence required though.

Considering that fuel doctor is internded to combat a range of contamination, I cant see that it would react badly with the two stroke.

cheers

I do throw in a bottle of Moreys Deisel Smoke Killer into the 20lt Castrol 2SO.
Moreso for the anti fungal part of it, and because it is supposed to increase cetane a little (which 2SO might reduce very marginally), makes little difference to the overall cost, so what the heck.

That 1lt Moreys to the 20lt 2SO works out a slightly milder dose of the Moreys, to play it safe.

I don't believe alfae is supposed to be an issue if you regularly fill your tank with diesel, thus it is fresh virtually weekly / fortnightly.
The main issue is supposedly where a vehcile is left for a long time, or where temps are constantly high, like the top end of Aus ??

The two stroke will actully slightly increase the cetane of the diesel up to arround the 200:1 mark at some point after that it tends to reduce it.

Um...I'm not real cxonfident in the morey's product.

If you want to knock diesel bug down...fuel doctor seems to be the best choice.

But I don't see the necisity to run it every tank...unless you are looking for the water issues.

cheers

It is true that a great many automotive additives produce little or no benifit....OR...are now well and truly outdated and have been overtaken by normal product formulations.

Many of the genuine and viable fuel and oil additives of the past have now found there way into normal fuel and oil.....so are redundant as stand alone products.

The european consumer association testing of diesel additves proved the notion without a doubt.

they found that many of the diesel additives on their market did bugger all and the majority where less effective than two stroke, only a hand full where worth the asking price.

as far as additives go, two stroke in diesel is different to all others, because there is no salesman making a extortionate profit by making assertions of effectivness.

In fact most of the claims about two stroke are modest and simple.

It is a grass roots concept and has been proven to be effective over many years my a great many people, both on an observed improvement basis and by real actual scientific tests.

It is cheap, effective and accessable to all.

Above all, I have yet to see any claims of damage or impared operation using two stroke in diesel as reccomended.....and while ago I did an awful lot of reading about it, before I was satisfied enough to try it.

From what I have read and my personal experience and those I know who have used it..two stroke in a conventional diesel motor is a no brainer.....in a common rail it bears more thaught.........but don't expect any mirricles.

cheers

I think that is where it lies..... people expect miracles and I am sure many have a placebo effect as well.

There is no doubt some additive are beneficial but for the average user it's hard to say.

The two stroke theory is a good one, there seems to be many good results and happy people...... just make you wounder how many fuel additives are nothing more then 2 stroke oil that your paying 500 times the price for.

I remember when Nulon treatment first came out if the 80's and their claim of running a car with no oil from Melbourne to Sydney.

Sure I ended up using it but that was the days before I became skeptical and had a little bit less knowledge to know any better..... aarrrrrhhhhhh the marketing hype.

The only additive I use every 6 months is petrol fuel system cleaner and that's on the motorbikes.... all fuel injected.

Placebo effect, very probable with fuel econ etc, people are looking for improvement, and tend to drive lighter on the fast pedal :)

Noise though, definitely helps there, just about all that try it notice their engines (injectors / pump) are quieter.
Smoothness too. My UHF aerial wobbles about when running without 2SO (or the Nulon Diesel Engine Treatment), noticeable less with these additives.

There may be one or two addtives that are more or less commonly available products like two stroke repackaged.

In the past I was pretty keen on certain oil additives......but I have learned a little about oil and additives since.

I think a lot of the general public and a quite a few mechanics have a very poor knoweledge of available products.

In particular what constitutes a good and appropriate oil.

A lot of the oil that is heavily sold and at high prices in the retail market is very ordinary.....most would be surpassed by one of the diesel spec multifleet oils that can be purchased in 20 litre drums for about $4 - 5 a litre.

A great many people simply have the wrong grade of oil in their sump.......we are still being sold the idea that thicker is better.

It occurs to me that a lot of the benifits that came from some of the additives actually came from the big dose of detergent that came in them.

I was right into the PTFE/Teflon additives in the 80s and 90s......yeh

I think that there where a lot of claims made that would not pass muster these days.

I have seen the film left by some of the teflon products from the 80's and 90's......but I now question if it was a good thing.....it certainly seems that any idea of permenancy as touted in the 80's was...um...over stated...as for the notion that teflon/ptfe actually reduces engine wear.......yeh......Dow Corning don't think so and they make the stuff.

As for the claims of high milage...yeh well.....if you used a good quality modern oil with a strong additive package.....those sorts of high milages claimed as mirraculous are commonly achieved.


As I said...some of the viable oil additives that where arround in the 70s and 80s..and may still persist as after market additives will actually be found in good modern oils...I have seen commercially available oils move from being quite pedestrian, to being pretty sofisticated as they are now.

We only saw the "friction modified" oils come in with the in the mid 80s that would have been the beginning of real viable antiwear additives in commercially available oils.......that is realy not that long ago.

There is one brand of oil additives marketed by a bloke I'll call "Val", because that is his name...that is fifties technology that he baught the rights to in the US back in the 80s.
Well and truly surpassed technology, that you will find better in any modern spec commercial oil.

A lot of people will tell me I'm imadining it....But I am pretty certain my vehicles sound smoother with fresh new oil.....the very same oil I have just drained.

I can also tell you my diesel sounds smoother with a full tank rather than a nearly empty one.

So its not unreasonable to say that many of the uninformed will belive an additive can be doing miraculous things when it is realy not.

As for two stroke in diesel...I am convinced.....particularly in higher milage engines.
The difference in my hilux is significant.......I finally convinced a mate to try it in his very sad kubota diesel mower.......he reports striking improvements in how much smoother it runs and it seems to be improving in power.....he was very scheptical.
I put it down to improving injector action due to better lubrication...and perhaps the additives the the two stroke shifting some of the carbon.

ANYway

cheers

cheers