GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

****No way at all that the above post is ever going to be safe.****

A 600 watt inverter at ~85% efficiency at full power is going to need about 50-60 amps. For safety the wiring would have to be large enough to supply this (fire hazard if run under carpet etc) whether you think you may need it or not.

As a minimum about 8Ga for a very short run (<1 metre), or 4Ga (for up to 4 metres) using a decent sized Anderson plug if you want to remove the inverter.

If you are unsure, CONSULT AN AUTO-ELECTRICIAN. Big currents, hot wires and some high voltages involved pretty much demand this.

I would suggest trying to get by from charging as much as possible from the 12V as possible, as this has the least "conversion losses" (12v - 240v - 12v would waste 25-30% of the Aux batterys' charge, meaning longer to recharge).

Phone/camera/startpack could all be charged by the 12 (via an adapter if required). Laptop computer can be charged and operated by a dedicated car-laptop converter (12v to 15-18v) available from Tandy/DSE for <$100.

GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

"...mainly to charge up camera, phone, torch, jump start and computer batteries while on the move..."

ALL of these do not require an inverter at all.

Be very clear. You are wasting money by putting in an inverter.

There is also the issue of having 240V around your vehicle in the event of an accident, with the possibility of causing injury to rescue personnel from electrocution, and the risk of sparks causing a fire following an accident.

I have really yet to hear of one valid reason to install a 240V inverter in a vehicle, and certainly none so far as to the safe use of such while the vehicle is in motion.

Member - Jack posted:

Hi Gary.

You make some good points. Sadly, the batteries come with the special chargers (Sony Handicam, Olympus camera and Dell computer) that all seem to insist that you use their chargers. I have an adaptor to run the Dell from Kerio, and it powers the computer but will not charge the battery. Thanks, Dell ... wish we'd have known that before we bought it.

The jump pack (all 1400 watts of it) does not seem to like being recharged through the 12v system on the car. In fact, when I tried this, it seemed to discharge more, going by the power lights it had. The torch is one of those Kinchrome lead acid torches that is terrific, and it will recharge on 12v, but seems to do better on the 240v stuff.

At least the inverter has a small fan, and I have a few of those 12v computer fans laying around from some computers I have cannibalised at different times.

I still think I need an auto elec though. Thanks for the advice.

jack

Ron George posted:

G/day Jack, mate I`ve pretty much got the same set up you`ve got in mind, except my inverter is a 300 watt pure sine wave jobby, works a treat, even get to watch movies with the little flat screen LCD TV/dvd set up. My answer to your Q would be, figure out where YOU want the inverter installed, then get a qualified auto sparkie to do the installation… Generally speaking, any variable voltage electrical equipment will always operate more economically & efficiently on 240V so YOUR solution to YOUR requirements is good & sound… Disregard the dooms day merchants… Hot wires/under carpet/fires… And I`m also thinking that if a vehicle is smashed up so bad that it has exposed the internals of the 240V system to the risk of electrocution, the power source would be cactus, effectively nullifying that risk.And besides, if the system is correctly installed it will be properly fused to eliminate any risk of 240V electrocution... as safe as houses. So go ahead mate & enjoy your toys. Cheers Ron.

Ron George posted:

Jack, a PS to my last. Q. Is your inverter pure sine wave or, square wave, reason for asking, lappies don`t like square wave electricity if you are thinking of running it with 240V, the same goes for any like equipment, just be aware that what comes out the plug hole is not necessarily the same as household power. The price varies accordingly also, expect to pay a few more $$$s for the sine wave technology. Cheers.

Member - Norm C (QLD) posted:

I know that's the often stated rule Ron (Laptops need pure sine wave), but we have run 2 laptops (both Dell) on our modified sine wave inverter for over 12 months. No problem at all.

GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

Ron, most AGM cells will operate with the bottom of the case ripped open as the battery acid is held by the glass mat, and as such every AGM should be considered to be able to deliver more current than enough to cause a spark/fire, even when subjected to an impact. This is the basis for the caution about the inverters and electrocution risks too.

If you crack open a wet cell and drain only one of the cells then the battery is effectively inoperable.

It is not a "doomsday merchant" comment, simply a statement of fact.

"...if the system is correctly installed it will be properly fused to eliminate any risk of 240V electrocution... as safe as houses..."
Fuses are NOT there to save lives, but to save the wiring. You will be dead in the time it takes a fuse to blow. Earth on your 240v systems is what is there to save lives, but if there is nowhere for the current to properly earth itself (in a vehicles case due to being on rubber tyres and/or having poor contact with the earth), then you are it, buddy...(effectively standing in a puddle of water holding a wet hairdryer), all the way up to 600 watts before the inverter says "enough" (it only takes less than a watt to kill you....).

One other thing you touched on is the inverter waveform. Square wave and modifies sine wave CAN (note that I did not say WILL) cause problems with switchmode power supplies, often transmitting serious power spikes through to your equipment and damaging it. True sine inverters are the best to use with SMPS's, but are far more wasteful of power. Check the warranty on any equipment that you may connect to and inverter, you may fall under the "non-approved charging method" clauses that nullify your warranty.

What I would say is to contact the manufacturer of all your equipment and ask them if the have any 12v options for charging them. Just because it wasn't included in the original box and original price, and wasn't mentioned by the salesman doesn't mean it is not available (eg, all phones have a 12 ciggie lighter adapter available). You would have a better chance of making a warranty claim if it was connected to an "approved" 12v charging solution from the manufacturer than by some dodgy other means.

GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

"(it only takes less than a watt to kill you....).'

should be "(it only takes less than 10 watts to kill you....).

Ron George posted:

G/day Gary. Yeah mate point taken with the AGM battery, The thought of exposed wiring in the event of a ding be it 12/24V or 240V would be a bit of a worry for me... not from the electrocution point of view...But from fire!!!!
You commented it takes less than 10 watts to kill... reminded me (I’m not going to tell you how) I’ve been bitten a couple of times by that 240 jigger... It bloody well hurt... but I survived... what would you say to that??? I’m givin ya a free kick here so take it easy on me... Ok
No offence meant with the dooms day comment mate, One has to be constantly be on the toes when writing as it can be so easily be misinterpreted. Cheers Ron

GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

You've only got to cut in the wrong place with the Jaws Of Life to really make someone's day.......

Most people will get thrown by the shock, "disconnecting" themselves. In the instance where you Cannot move away from the source of power then yes, 10 watts (240V at 40 mA) is enough to do you in, and technically it could be as little as 16 mA (= 4 watts at 240V)

Sand Man (SA) posted:

Jack,

For your info mate, Dell provide a combination power adapter for about $90.00 which is all you need.
It comes with a 240 volt AC power cord when connecting to 240 volt, or a 12 volt DC power cord that connects to a car cigarette socket, or Aeroplane socket.

It's a pity they don't supply this combination power adapter up front hey.

Member - Jack posted:

Hi Sandman ...
I have the 240v one but was not aware of the 12v one. Grrr!!! shall check Dell out tomorrow. Many thanks for the tip.

I went direct to Kerio in Korea and got them to send me one which will power the Dell computer, but would not charge the battery. One lives and learns.

Thanks again.

Jack

Member - Jack posted:

Hi Derek:

As I mentioned in my original post, I am a "technical gelding" on these matters. Can you tell me what 8 B&S cable is, please? I have taken on board the Anderson plug though though. That makes sense, even to me.

Cheers
Jack

Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators posted:

Hi Jack

8 B&S is 8mm2. This is around 5mm copper core diameter.

Have a look at my picture. 8 B&S cable

If you have the space and budget you may think of the 10mm2 tinned solar cable.

Regards

Derek.

Member - Jack posted:

Whoa! Hold on Derek ... you are making my head spin here ... 10mm2 tinned solar cable??? Now I *know* I need an auto elec But I may even drop a few of these terms when I go over to see him, just to impress. :)

Thanks, you have just confirmed my "technical gelding" status.

Cheers
Jack

Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators posted:

Hi Jack

It just sounds technical. It is just heavy two core.

Here is a link. 10mm2 Solar

It is the last picture on the page.

Regards

Derek.

Ron George posted:

Derek… mate for a moment I thought bugger… I`ve gone dyslexic…or sumpin… Your logo??? Have you had any comments from A.R.B.???? Cheers.

Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators posted:

Hi Ron,

Thank You for the interest. ABR is short for Affordable Batteries and Radiators. We do have arb's approval of our logo yes.

Regards

Derek.

GaryInOz (Vic) posted:

Derek,

I'm guessing that all you tinned wire would not be suitable for anything other than fixed installations, as tinning a wire can make the copper wires brittle.

Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators posted:

Hi Gary

Yes it is stiffer than the plain copper wire. Most wiring is of a permanent nature. The only point you may require some flex is the tow ball point or if you are making up some extension leads.

In the case of the inverter above you would assume it was to be fixed for a long period of time.

Regards

Derek.

Member - Jack posted:

Hi Andrew.

Yes I am looking at under the seat in my 80 series sa a place to locate it, but it is a bit "squeezy" and I have some concern about getting a decent supply of cool air to it. I think it will probably end up on the cargo barrier. But the thing I have gleaned from the replies is that anderson plugs would appear to be the best and safest way to go as well as proper heavy wiring.

I must admit I have found all the replies very interesting, and it has given me plenty to consider. Thanks for your input as well. it is all appreciated.

Cheers
Jack

Member - Andrew W (SA) posted:

Yep - mine would have been on the cargo barrier in a heartbeat - if I had one. It is the obvious place for it, and a mate of mine has his there. Works fine - he has set up a harness/conduit to make the cabling nice and protected.

I did grapple with all sorts of mounting in the rear, but there was nowhere that made a lot of sense and that felt as solid as bolted to the floor.