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Wheel Spacers – Good or Bad?

Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 16:43

Wohni

Howdy All, I have a question:

Fact is, the new Land Cruiser LC79 Bakkie has a front track 4” wider than the rear track (or axle). This was apparently done to accommodate the larger V8 Turbo Diesel engine, which absurdly may not even become available in Southern Africa.

Common sense dictates, and some seem to have experienced this already, that the narrower track in the back may present a problem, especially in sand. In our specific case we have added worries, because http://www.wohni.com definitely has a higher centre of gravity than a non-converted Bakkie would have – plus – we will more often than not travel on the limit of gross weight, thus exaggerating any phenomenon and/or occurrence.

The obvious thing to do would be adding Wheel Spacers at the back. However, a 2” extension of leverage on each side is no minor alteration and may or may not cause havoc in difficult terrain. Doing a quick thumb suck I guesstimate the increase in forces applied to be approximately 3-4% each side, yes?

On a positive note, we are ‘only’ concerned about the rear and hence don’t have to deal with reinforcing ball joints, etc. Also, as far as roll stability goes we would definitely have an added bonus. Still, forces on the diff, bearings and the axle itself are reason enough to be concerned.

I feel somewhat between a rock and a hard place about this, but tend towards going for the added benefit of the spacers versus the minor risk of breakage, hoping that Murphy is not around when push comes to shove.

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and/or input.
All the best
Tommy
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AnswerID: 332173   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 17:10

RobAck replied:

The front track is actually 42mm either side which is 3" overall. Having taken a fully loaded and that is at GVM across the Simpson Desert and for an extended off-road and remote area tracks evaluation covering over 3500km I do not agree with your assessment of the potential risks. Having done risk assessments on the vehicle and its derivatives for several clients I am quite comfortable discussing this particular vehicle.

My commentary on legal and technical requirements applies to Australia only!

You should check with the relevant road traffic/transport legislators regarding wheel spacers as they are normally illegal, in Australia at any rate. Further modifications and the like would require certification by a licensed engineer as well as additional coverage by your insurer again an Australian requirement.

If you do not need to purchase one then I suggest waiting until the update model appears around 2010 to comply with the ADR's for side and frontal protection.

RobA
Reply 1 of 7
FollowupID: 600213   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 17:01

Wohni posted:

From this website about the Simpson Desert:
*
Big Red, also known by its aboriginal name as Nappamerri, is a huge sand dune in the Simpson Desert that stands approximately 90 metres above sea level and 35 metres above the plain, although height may vary due to winds and dunal movement.
*

I don't mean any disrespect neither do I want to sound condescending, but in Namibia that's considered a farm road with a speed hump, some of our farmers drive these roads daily with a Citi Golf ... I consider crossing the Namib, especially East-West quite a different kind of a challenge.

All the best
Tommy
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AnswerID: 332177   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 17:22

Wohni replied:

Thanks Rob,

Correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying I should NOT consider wheel spacers - and if any than the 1.5" (42mm x 2 = 84 / 2.54 = 3.3" to be exact)

The info I got is 1515mm front and 1420mmm back, that would be 3.7".

Fortunately road regulations are not that strict here in southern Africa, which does not mean that I intend to take advantage of that and/or do something potentially stupid.
Reply 2 of 7
FollowupID: 600012   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 17:48

Member - Graham H (QLD) posted:

Why not just put some wheels with more offset on it .

Such as is done here when using the old solid axle wheels on the later IFS models
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FollowupID: 600016   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 18:03

Wohni posted:

Hi Graham,

Not a bad idea as such - what I don't like about it is the added challenge with regards to spares.
FollowUp 2 of 6
FollowupID: 600030   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 19:03

Member - Graham H (QLD) posted:

Would sooner carry two spares than shear my studs off using illegal spacers.

As we usually carry two spares here I dont see a problem.
Also may placate insurance company in the event of something nasty happening
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FollowupID: 600033   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 19:13

GerryP posted:

Wouldn't offset rims still place exactly the same strain on the bearings as spacers would? The track is widened by the same amount - it's only the centre of the rim that is moved across rather than using spacers. In fact, come to think of it, an offset rim would increase the load on the studs as well.

Gerry
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FollowupID: 600053   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:31

Wohni posted:

Gerry is right, I had the same thought ... offset rim will extend and thus increase lever arm by the exact same amount.
FollowUp 5 of 6
FollowupID: 600077   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 21:19

Middle Jeff posted:

If you use the Snake style spacer they bolt onto the original studs and the wheel bolts onto a second set of studs on the spacer, so the same load.

Have fun

Craig
FollowUp 6 of 6
AnswerID: 332200   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 19:13

Member - John (Vic) replied:

If the centre of gravity wasn't an issue with the previous 78 & 79 series tracks why should it be any worse with the 40 mm difference between front and rear now??

In fact given the front is now wider you could assume that it is in fact improved??

I remember reading somewhere that differing front and rear tracks is not an uncommon feature of lots of new generation vehicles to improve handling and stability??

I don't believe that I have ever seen a set of wheel ruts that are so consistently tight that a 40 mm difference will make any tangible difference to the vehicle and given when sand driving with the vehicle constantly sliding from side to side no one maintains a dead straight line of track anyway.
Its a none issue.
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FollowupID: 600056   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:40

Wohni posted:

Thanks John,

The centre of gravity I am referring to is with regards to the camper conversion we are doing (www.wohni.com)

I agree about the ruts and the constant sliding in made tracks, IMHO the difference will come in when you are the one scouting and making the tracks, no? I.e. beach driving on the wet and slanted part and/or steep, high, 'soft-ish' dunes.
FollowUp 1 of 3
FollowupID: 600064   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:57

Member - John (Vic) posted:

Yes I understood the centre of gravity issues with regards to the camper.
But campers have been fitted to the previous model with no adverse effects and as I said the extra width would no doubt add to the stability issue not subtract from it.

Plenty of these vehicles doing cross country work in the mining industry in this country in virgin territory with no track issues.

Also remember the pre V8 models also have a small track difference, 1435 mm on the front and 1420 mm on the rear with no adverse effect.

Its a non issue and not worth the "possible' negative affects of the spacers.

But in the end its your truck and you can do what you want with it.
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FollowupID: 600075   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 21:12

Wohni posted:

Thanks John, I appreciate the input ... however, if I intended to do what I want with my truck, then I wouldn't post these questions here.
FollowUp 3 of 3
AnswerID: 332239   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:46

Member - bungarra (WA) replied:

Wohni

As an owner of the LC79 and having travelled only some 14,000k since new all I can offer is my limited experience of this vehicles performance and handling as follows

Probably half of my usage has been seriously off road and the balance on either good dirt and or black top and in both on / off road maybe 9,000 has been towing an off road camper trailer

Issues / problems?.....none what soever!....yes I have heard all sorts of bull bleep about tracking. swaying etc from alll the doom talkers...maybe some of have some merit (if they have first hand experience)....seems to me most of it is from supposodly experts with their hypothetical issues

IF IT AINT BROKE THEN DONT FIX IT.........simple motto...place your faith in Toyota and their engineers .......not the back of the breakfast cereal packet qualified "experts"

regards

bungarra

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FollowupID: 600058   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:48

Member - bungarra (WA) posted:

Wohni

forgot to add if GONE BUSH doesnt see your post then I suggest you member message him.........he has first hand experience of the vehicle and spacers...the sort of information worth getting first hand

bungarra

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FollowupID: 600072   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 21:10

Wohni posted:

Thanks Bungarra, lot's of truth in your reply

Can't MM Gone Bush, because I'm not a member ;(
FollowUp 2 of 3
FollowupID: 600150   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 09:47

Best Off Road posted:

"place your faith in Toyota and their engineers "

I would agree with that it weren't for accountants.

The motor industry has a sorded history of taking the cheaper option in favour if the better option.

Cheers,

Jim.

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AnswerID: 332240   Submitted: Monday, Oct 27, 2008 at 20:47

Robin Miller replied:

Hi Tommy

There will be no issue in widening the track at the rear to match the front , I believe this is a hot selling item in Australia.

The high centre of gravity is an issue in these vehicles and I would reccomend that you go further and use offset steel wheel rims of at least 10mm as well to improve the stability and do not raise the car either either.
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AnswerID: 332286   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 05:09

Wohni replied:


Taking up the subject with some “local boffins” today – just because I wanted to hear more opinions, not because I don’t trust those I read here – the tendency is towards spacers in the back to align the tracks - and surprisingly often, apart from the tracking issue "fuel consumption" was mentioned when it came to sand and mud driving issues … some of these guys do the likes of the Namib Desert for a living and/or all their lives

To the spacers are a go ... just don't know which ones and where to buy yet
Reply 6 of 7
FollowupID: 600136   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 07:34

Robin Miller posted:

Yes Tommy , there is less rolling resistance with a narrower tyre track when you remove the 80 odd mm of difference and also less of a chance of staking a tyre.
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FollowupID: 600149   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 09:14

Best Off Road posted:

Tommy,

Robin is a modest man, hence he doesn't brag about his qualifications.

The man is a senior, and very expereinced Engineer. Hell of a nice bloke to boot.

I'm not casting aspertions on the others that have commented (they may well be equally educated and experienced), but I think it is a matter that requires properly qualified advice as to the safety, benefits etc.

Jim.

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AnswerID: 332378   Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 28, 2008 at 16:51

Wohni replied:

FYI:
__________________________________________________ __________
G'day Tommy

Spacers are made from steel, benefits of having the track the same are very important if traversing on soft ground.

Fuel economy plus the drag on the truck and camper making new tracks with uneven footprints is pretty obvious i think.

A wider track makes for a more stable vehicle / camper all comes down to how wide the tracks are you are driving on.

Thanks

Rhino
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