companies and the forum

Submitted: Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:31
ThreadID: 64539 Views:2817 Replies:12 FollowUps:17
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I will start with a note to the moderation team, this post is not a troll to start problems but a genuine question to be discussed.

We all like to let the forum know of good dealings we have had with companies relevant to topics EO covers, it helps others make informed choices. Everyone is happy.

Now if we receive not so good or down right crap service, how far are we allowed to go with venting our frustration? If just the facts are quoted is that OK?

If you are truthful in your post and the company dislikes the post and requests its removal, have we lost our freedom of speech or are there legal issues of which I am not aware?

Anyone like to put their $0.02 worth in?

Cheers Stefan
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Reply By: Cruiser .- Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:39

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:39
Stefan,

Fair question I reckon.

To be fair it should be a 2 way street. If we get good service and want to tell everyone, but on the other hand if we want to complain then as long as the facts arent distorted and the post doesnt resort to name calling and is not slanderous, then I see no problem.

Will be interesting to see Davids take on this.

Cheers,

Cruiser .
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Reply By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:50

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:50
Interesting question and one to which I could write pages and pages of responses however let me just make a few points.

1. There is no such thing as freedom of speech when defamation law around.
2. People who post are anonymous and no one has any clue who you are so when you come on a site (any site) and slam and name a business (or person for that matter) you are treading on very shaky ground.
3. If a business comes to us and asks to have posts removed we will make a judgement call on the validaty of the claim and act accordingly. We will not be taken to court to test your rights for you.
4. We are very aware of the law in these matters and have in the past had several law suits filed against us for things people post in the forum so rest assured we will act in the best interests of the business in all cases.

So to answer your last question, yes there are legal issues however we will not remove posts that do not directly name a business or person. There is no such thing as freedom of speech in todays society like it or not.

Understand it from the business perspective you come along as an anonymous poster and slam my business (whether you are right or not) name me (without naming yourself) and post your side of an issue - it is a bit rude to assume that I would just have to live with it because you said so, don't you think?

David

PS: I do not want to enter into a long winded series of posts on this topic as I really hate this topic, everytime a defamation issue arrises it always costs me significant time and money and generally you guys are completly none the wiser that anything has even happened.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:57

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 17:57
fair point David, I am really unaware of what happens in the back ground.

I guess most people will post a one sided argument, its human nature to do so.

Thanks for some background info

cheers Stefan
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:01

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:01
No worries - have a Merry Christmas.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Follow Up By: Cruiser .- Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:10

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:10
David,

Thanks for your take on this subject.

You make many very valid points which I am sure are based on experiences that most of us would never have.

I can understand your point of view.

Thanks,

Cruiser .

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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:15

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:15
I'll add to that; to make a comment in a Newspaper "letters" section one must provide their full name and address before the paper will print.

On forums, cowards can log on under some obscure alias and say whatever they like. Whilst most are traceacble, any computer savvy stirrer can find a way to log on without trace.

In time I guess legislation will be introduced to tighten this up.

Cheers,

Jim.



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Follow Up By: ross - Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 21:05

Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 21:05
I think its great when the aggrieved party,when after a period of fruitless negotiation, post up their complaint and invite the business/individual to respond.

From reading both sides of a story you can usually see a vein of truth somewhere.
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Reply By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:05

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:05
Stefan,

This is a very tricky one.

First let me say I've never had anyone bag my business here so I have no sour grapes. BUT, I have become aware of some people slagging a company and only telling the part they want to tell. Then when you here the other side of the story you start to get a real understanding of the truth.

The problem is that the company being maligned may not know it has taken place and hence not have an opportunity to put their case.

Further, should the company be aware of it and ask for it to be deleted, IT Beyond may have a responsibilty to remove it. After all, should David and Michelle leave something on the forum that is unable to be substantiated the maligned company may have a right to take legal action against them. I say MAY, as I'm no lawyer.

Freedom of speech is a very important facet of our society, but it is not a right to say whatever one may like in all circumstances. Abuse of freedom of speech could severely harm a person's livelihood and it a right to be exercised judiciously.

Cheers,

Jim.

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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:09

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:09
so really unless you and the company enter into open debate on the forum.....you are treading on shaky ground.
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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:21

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:21
I'm not sure Stef.

Perhaps it would be considered good manners to inform a company of what "you" intend to post so that they are aware and have the right of reply.

Jim.

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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:26

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:26
you would be more likely to not 'bend' the truth if you have let the other side know where to find your vent.
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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:31

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:31
Indeed, and I think this needs to be tightened up.

As society and technology moves on, it is necessary to regulate accordingly.



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Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 10:08

Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 10:08
Having reread what I posted, I think I should clarify.

When I said tightened up and regulated, I meant by way of legislation.

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Reply By: donks1 - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:26

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:26
Gday all

Does that mean that ther will be no more Ni$$an bashing ???



Donks1
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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:28

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:28
good point!
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Reply By: Saharaman (aka Geepeem) - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:33

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 18:33
One place you can vent your frustration and anger of bad service or products as well as compliment good results is:

www.notgoodenough.com.au


Cheers,
GPM
AnswerID: 341263

Reply By: RV Powerstream P/L - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:04

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:04
What you have to consider is that TRUE or FALSE anyone can litigate against another person and the sad part is it costs money to defend yourself and defend yourself you have to even if it is false so it is better to remove litigous material for the continuance of the forum for all to enjoy not crucify it for a few.

Ian
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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:15

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:15
this is what I am after, facts. Thanks for your input

Cheers Stefan
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Reply By: troopyman - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:25

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:25
David and michelle have to make money to keep the site going . Advertising are there bread and butter and that is why thay can and should moderate how they choose . Its a bit hard to attract new advertisers when they would look at the forum and see its just a heap of of topic posts or negative posts . I guess this is how it works . Correct me if i am wrong .
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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:26

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:26
Why not just explain the problem without naming the product or supplier??

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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:38

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 19:38
my point is.....say fred blogs 4wd spares from down the road did me a sweet deal on some coopers and an engel and I am happy as

Now Joe from shonky 4wd spares did a real dodgy thing and sold me a new fridge which turned out to be a reco unit. Now how do I let everybody know about this with out legal problems? I have quoted the facts and Joe has contacted David to remove said post cause it makes him look bad!

where is the line?

Stefan
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Follow Up By: RV Powerstream P/L - Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 06:33

Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 06:33
Stefan
What you have just done in your above post actually posts your concern and is as far as you can go.

Then you have to WIN your case by using a regulatory authority as it appears you have been dudded.

Once you win your case you may be able to post without fear or favour and it could be fair to assume that any demands or litigation should not follow.

Even with the above my first reponse still stands and the commencement of litgation usually means money even if false.
Ian

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Reply By: Member - Jack - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 20:23

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 20:23
I worked for just over 20 years in media. Internet is "new media".

Organisations I worked for were sued on a weekly basis, but we never lost one. However ... during the Kerry Packer/Goanna allegations period, KP sued virtually every media outlet that ran the stories.

We escaped being sued on this occasion. He rang to say we provided "balanced coverage" and would not have to go to court.

I commented to him that he would be spending plenty to sue everyone, and he commented, in his laconic way .. "suing is a rich man's sport, son".

I doubt that David makes enough to adopt that philosphy, and therefore needs to consider the consequences on issues such as this. After all, it will be his house if he gets it wrong.

Merry christmas.
jack
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Follow Up By: stefan & 12 times Dakar winner - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 20:32

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 20:32
so its almost a case of money buys freedom of speech. so if you want to have your say you need cash behind you incase some one wants to challange you on it
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Follow Up By: furph - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 21:32

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 21:32
Stefan et al
Isnt that the way it should be?
History demonstrates that so far it is.
As Jack reminds us, Packer set the guidelines on this.
His is one demise I dont regret.
furph
PS Jack. If you get in anyones firing line, you make sure you dont have any assets connected to you at all.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 21:40

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 21:40
Or carry defamation insurance, as we did. Not cheap, but better than none at all.

Jack
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Reply By: robertbruce - Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 22:38

Wednesday, Dec 24, 2008 at 22:38
I encourage people to write complaints,

dont let them take advantage of your AustralianA!

some of todays big companys lack the courage to develop a clientele...all they want is rip a customer ..

imho, if you make a complaint to the ACCC then you blabber about it as much as you want...lol...

finding the time to identify exactly what is the complaint is often difficult, but with some practice you'll be pulling a dozen points of interest in no time...

pretty soon, like me youll become a professional complainer...

complaining is differant from whinging,

whinging is prorastionation,
harvest your procrastionation, write it out, print it, then punch the crap out of the printed page. Smash the printer against the wall, throw the computer out the window then trash the rest of the house, niebourhood and life...ummmmm, yer, tha's what they would have you do...

written compaints work much better than selfharm....i encourage to start your protest

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Reply By: Willem - Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 09:46

Thursday, Dec 25, 2008 at 09:46
Stefan

The trouble is that when there is a complaint most likely only one side of the story is heard. And normally that is only from the complainants point of view and the way he/she sees it.

Naming companies is bad business as the re could be many factors involved.

One factor is that the company is just the reseller of the product and whatever the issue the company is loath to go back to the supplier. It also depends on which terms the supplier had supplied the goods.

I have had a number of issues with products over the years and have mentioned some of them here on the forum but have not mentioned companies involved as far as I can recall. Brand names have been mentioned, yes.

A media (including the Internet) highlighted complaint can destroy a business or an individuals employment and the issue may have not been fairly portrayed. I have seen this happen with Newspapers getting the story wrong. These days the Internet is worldwide and adverse media coverage can be detrimental to a company if it is named .

In some instances in the past, named companies have come back on this forum with their side of the story. Maybe a complainant can approach a company first before making the complaint public on the internet. Just last week there was a company named on this forum which I think was grossly unfair as only part of one side of the story was vented in the post.

To everyone posting on forums....take care in what you say as you could be sued and taken to the cleaners in no uncertain way.

And on that note....a Merry Xmas to you all!

Cheers
AnswerID: 341333

Reply By: Joe - Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 19:40

Sunday, Dec 28, 2008 at 19:40
However some people know the system very well and arrange thier affairs and behavior accordingly.
I have a dispute with 4wd shop at moment that involves a large sum of money.
I was in hospital for long time and my family forwarded funds for work they knew I wanted done.
The operator get's recommended on this site at times as well as being active on many other forums.
He hides behind a $2 company so taking legal action becomes a bit of a hollow victory.
I recently approached the Criminal Investigation Unit of the Victoria Police and senoir detectives have taken it up as a formal investigation.

AnswerID: 341640

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