Do landlubbers understand the sailors?

Yep what she said!

Pesty

Josh, apparantly she cannot have a support crew. If she does have a support crew, and succeeds in her adventure, apparantly it is not classed as a solo effort.
I know what you are saying about tax payers having to probably foot the rescue bill, but at least she is an Aussie, she is having a genuine go, and what she is doing is not illegal.
Even if we do have to rescue her, and lets hope it doesn't come to that, our Govt seems to think it has plenty of money to waste everywhere else.
Keep an eye out in Tassie and you might see her sailing past.......lol
Karen
:-)

It was mentioned in the news this morning that they have some kind of "rescue insurance". If that is the case, then at least they have thought about the possibility of something going amiss and have it covered.

Gerry

I say good on her for having a go. She seems well prepared with what you have said. We all venture out into the unknown in our 4x4s so why not in a boat.

that much of "taxpayers" money gets wasted on utter crap and no hopers

anything spent on her if any would be a pitance
- lets get things in perspective

get outmore, to true. enough said.

Josh,

None of the people involved in those rescues ever complained about taking part. Neither the Naval commanders nor the crew of the ship involved had any reservations about doing their job.
As far as the cost goes the performance of the rescue is the best training anyone can get. I am in an emergency service organistaion which has a high expectation that regular training will be carried out. The only reason for drills to be cancelled without question is attendance at an actual incident.

The cost of those rescues would probably be diverted from some other budget, most likely training, because having done the rescue they have done the training. The commanders, who would know what it cost, never mentioned the economic consequence.


Duncs

And to follow up on Duncs....

The provision of rescue/emergency services is a fixed cost, regardless of whether they do 1 or 100 it is still going to cost the taxpayer money.

I agree gouger,

People cant do anything now days that involves risk.

I hope she makes it and she is safe, but the main thing is she has the guts to try.

I also believe she is a great role model for young girls. That they can do what ever they want and not just be a pretty airhead who cares more about celebrities then their own intelligence.

Cheers Wilko

Gouger. You can turn your capitals off. You dont need to "shout" at us. We are all friendly on here!
Karen
:-O

Gidday karen

This is the coverage that SPOT say they cover

SPOT world coverage

unfortunately there are large areas of ocean not covered so SPOT wouldnt be the best device for Jessica :-))

I have seeen a website that shows her GPS track 'breadcrumbs' but I can't find it now. Perhaps someone will post it for us all to see

Just found a tracking link on her Facebook page.

Follow Jessica

here it is

PINK LADY tracking website


suggest you 'unclick' most of the stuff and leave ' yachts and others' ticked

You will need to zoom into Sydney area and she is the small pink arrow you will see

I forgot to mention

Once you find her double click the small pink arrow and that brings up a details box - click on the 'show vessels track and that will show you her 'breadcrumb' trail

Bucket if I can see her!!

I think Kiwi Angler might have a little pink yacht drawn on his screen. I cant see any little pink yacht on the marine traffic screen.

That AIS project only has a very small coverage area by the looks of it, and needs to have the associated system online to work.

Andrew

AIS operates on VHF and only has a coverage of 10 to 100 or so miles.

John, thanks heaps for that site link. There must be thousands of people checking it out, it is taking a very long time to open. It is now in my favorites.
Karen

Yes the site is probably a bit overloaded atm, maybe they need David to take a look and sort out any problems :-)
I'm sure they will get it running well soon.

I will watch her with interest and keep my fingers crossed that all goes well for her.

Here is her Face Book site also with tracking links.

Jessica Watson Face Book Site

Got it now thanks John. Well so far she is heading in the right direction to New Zealand...............lol

Good on her, I just hope she is safe...

I don't think she goes near NZ??
She must head further North and cross the equator before heading south again and rounding South America.

Does that mean that one in three sailors who do enough miles to circumnavigate the earth die? Frankly I think her chances are better on the ocean than on some of the roads I have shared with drivers of dubious repute.

owen

Owen, Your point being? Your analogy of the roads is a silly one, I am merely reporting the real facts she faces. In fact Andrew Short the sailor who was killed last week when their yacht hit a reef wrote her a letter advising her she should not go, in irony he died a day after the letter was sent. The statistics are the statistics Owen, they are there in reality. I support her doing what she wants, so I can only report the dangers she faces, certainly far more dangerous than driving a car, please.!

The point is that of all the books I read and all of the sailing I or friends have done, thirty three per cent did not die. The person who put this figure up is demonstrably wrong. Even the idiots who take part in solo round the world racing do not have a thirty three per cent loss rate. And they push the envelope big time. (analogy) It's just a figure pulled out of the air. Not the real facts as you put it. Figures are not facts and I would love to hear the facts.

A well prepared boat and a well planned voyage with fully briefed and practised crew is, in my opinion, a safe one. Driving to the jetty is the dangerous part of the journey witness the hundreds of people who are killed or badly maimed on our roads every year.

The analogy is not a silly one and I take offense. I would not accuse anyone on this forum of being silly however dumb they sometimes seem to be.

Tip: Use "ironically". There is no "in irony" in good English.

Owen

Books on sailing do not portray the ferocity of the ocean Owen. The figure of 33% was in fact raised by Andrew Cape, a legendary sailor from Australia. Andrew Cape and Andrew Short wrote her a letter stating the dangers, Andrew was killed in a yachting accident the next day. If the weather is kind to her she has a chance of making it, I'll say it again, I hope she does. If the weather dishes up just 75% of its power at the wrong times she will have problems. Whilst you may correct me on my spelling I will correct you on your analogy of comparing driving on the roads vs. sailing solo around the world, wrong very wrong, but hey your entitled to your opinion. Owen, I brought up the facts and you chose to challenge me , and you have not had any sailing experience, your are entitled to your opinion but you have failed to convince me that driving is far more dangerous than the journey Jessica has undertaken. Experienced sailors would laugh at your analogy and call it more than just silly, but we wouldn't want to offend you, so let’s leave it at that.I wish Jessica all the best and hope she stays safe, I believe Google are tracking her which should be fun to follow.

Terra.,

Owen, I take offense to you liking driving on the road to a 16 year old girl sailing solo around the world. I will give you the benefit of the doubt but your analogy is laughable at best. Every year the world's best sailors are killed competing in crewed events, she is a 16 year girl with no experience. A better analogy and one you might understand Owen would be a 16 year old girl climbing Everest on her own with no previous experience, that more like it. Too many people like yourself have no idea whatsoever about the dangers of the ocean, I think Terrafirma was kind to you personally.

I am sorry you dont read well but I did mention I have sailed and to add to that it was blue water in the southern ocean. Also worked crayfishing and studied navigation.

The girl has experience. You would have read that if your eyes were open. Two sixteen year old kids that I know of have circumnavigated the globe that I know of and survived easily. There are numerous accounts of circimnavigations written by people who did them.

You dont seem bothered to base your opinion on any experience of your own either. Maybe you heard about it in a Hollywood movie.

Please just give me the facts and spare the rhetoric. I want to know the data, not throw away lines.

Meantime I am having a lot of fun with this. Keep it up

Owen

Owen , I find you amusing and I love the way you keep repositioning yourself. However I would like to give you the following information so we can put our difference of opinions to rest. Firstly in 1995 I built and raced a yacht called Terrafirma and won the overall Sydney to Hobart. I have circumnavigated the eastern seaboard, sailed to Hawaii, but for now that doesn't matter. I think I know enough to qualify my opinion, which by the way was nothing other than disagreeing with your driving on the roads analogy, I support Jessica in doing what she wants.

Here is the article I based my previous comments on, this is fact, refer to the published article below for further reading. By the way I suggest you research Andrew Cape before you give me your Hollywood movie theories. I only reported the facts as stated by Andrew Cape, so when your man enough an apology would be a good place to start, especially after accusing me of creating a Hollywood movie, god I love that one ! LOL ...


(By the way I do not feel Andrew Cape handled himself very well here, but nevertheless that's besides the point, he is more qualified than anyone in Australia right now to give an opinion on Jessica's journey)


Quote


Veteran yachtsman Andrew Cape, who has sailed around Cape Horn seven times, wrote to Jessica saying she had just a 33 per cent chance of completing the treacherous journey through the Southern Ocean, The Australian reported.

He said there was a 33 per cent chance of damage to the boat or crew, and 33 per cent chance of total loss of boat or crew.


But Waton's camp was this morning incensed by the yachtsman's doomsday predictions, saying the teenager had clocked up 10,000 nautical miles on the open water ahead of her world voyage.

"Two questions: why didn't he talk to Jessica a year ago about this and why did he, or a colleague of his, decide to leak it to the media?" Jessica's spokesman, Andrew Fraser, told brisbanetimes.com.au.

Mr Fraser said the 16-year-old had been inundated with feedback following her collision with a 63,000-tonne bulk carrier off the Gold Coast last month.

"There's nothing that Andrew's told Jessica that she doesn't already know," he said.

"We appreciate people offering advice, but there's a right and wrong way to go about it. Enough is enough."

In his letter Mr Cape, who is serving as navigator on the Puma Ocean Racing team's 21-metre racing yacht on its way to Alicante in the Mediterranean, compared Jessica's attempt to "growing up on a farm and, upon acquiring a 303 rifle, [feeling] you are ready to take on the Taliban".

"You would also not climb Mount Everest on your first climbing adventure," he wrote.

Mr Fraser said Jessica had already battled the perils of the Southern Ocean in March, although he would not comment further on her sailing experience.

"The critics need to be educated about their comments instead of leaking misinformation to the media," he said.

"It's disappointing that we had to find this in the press, before we had a chance to speak to him [Mr Cape]. If Andrew is aware of the preparation and the technology that Jessica's got behind her, he may have reviewed a few of those comments."

Maritime Safety Queensland found Jessica had probably dozed off moments before her 10-metre sloop Ella's Pink Lady collided with the Chinese bulk carrier.

The Buderim schoolgirl last week completed an incident-free sea-trial from the Gold Coast to Sydney, where she is preparing to embark on her world voyage.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/teen-solo-sailor-watsons-camp-rejects-death-warning-20091009-gqct.html

In closing Owen, let's move on, I only ever felt your analogy of driving on the roads, being as dangerous as Jessica's journey, is fanciful at best. That's my opinion and you have yours.

I think Jessica's camp do not like the dangers being put into percentages such as Mr Cape has suggested. I also believe she faces far more serious dangers than driving on the roads, whoever suggested that. There is no doubt most people believe she is brave and support her, but if she were their daughter most parents would not allow her to undertake such a risky adventure. The fact she hit another ship on her first attempt makes a mockery of everyone who suggested she has enough experience, lets hope they save her if something happens.

She is making steady progress at the moment, the tracker is a nice way of following her, I have found out she has some of the latest Epirb equipment on board which gives her a better chance of rescue in case of emergency than Jesse had, provided she does not have an accident that renders her unconscious. I have been posting on these forums via the office today on an associates computer and our office of 22 males have put Jessica's Google track on a 50" monitoring screen we have here, we are in the IT Support business, it's amazing what technology allows you to do sometimes.

Whoops, I have been talking to more than one person here!

Well I do apologise for the hyperbole in using the road toll to compare with ocean racing. It was not meant to be taken seriously but to highlight the faulty percentages given which were probably not meant to be taken as fact either but to press home a point.

But then again I read in time magazine recently about a study that highlighted the most dangerous things you can do. Yachting was not mentioned but driving came came high on the list as did walking, believe it or not. I wont say this was a fair statement because I dont know how they did the study. (The fact that there are more people walking at one time may affect the results.)

It has been said by sailors that the most dangerous part of an ocean voyage is the approach to the destination. I would agree with that on account of the traffic (shipping) and a tired crew prone to taking a risk.

But I still feel safer when I am out of sight of land than traveling on the roads for right or wrong. I felt safer when I was in Vietnam (6RAR)

Owen Evans

Owen, Yachting in general is not dangerous however I think to put this in perspective one needs to remember that she is only 16 solo sailing around the world and does not have the strength of a male, however perhaps she will make up for that with ability elsewhere? You are correct on the destination often being dangerous, my biggest concern is the weather turning nasty and dishing up a dangerous sea state. We do not seem to be able to track her journey at the moment, which is a pity.

Regards, Dean
C.C. Steve

I think any pursuit like this is all about risk management.

Know the risks,
Understand the risks,
Mitigate as much risk as you can,
Decide whether the residual risk is acceptable, and
Have a strategy/process as to how you will deal with unforeseen circumstances.

If you can tick these boxes than you are well on your way to a successful conclusion regardless of age as that should have been taken into account when working through the risks.......

Everything is inherently risky; managing the risks is the trick.

Cheers.....

Jessie Martin was no different and he made it.

Maybe she will, maybe she won't time will tell but good luck to her for giving it a go.

With you John...he was a bloke that the teachers had little time for..in the end he had tens of thousands of school kids from around the world following and learning from him. And it all started wityh a dream and belief in his own ability to meet whatever was thrown at him.

All the marks too her for backing her own ability.........

While I accept your argument to an extent I would just point out that there have been considerable advances in technology since Jesse Martin made his circumnavigation.

I grew up the son of a sailor. And have spent a bit of time sailing. Mum and Dad lived on board a boat for nearly 20years and as they aged they introduced some of this technology to make the sailing less physically demanding. However, they eventually got to the point where they decided to come ashore permanently because they were no longer capable of making or carrying out the decisions necessary to safely sail the boat.

From my understanding she has spent a considerable amount of time sailing, I am confident that she will have encountered foul weather in the past and considered her ability to deal with it before setting out on this voyage. Not to have done so would be irresponsible, the family does not strike me as irresponsible.

I am on her side. I will stand and argue her right to attempt it. She will have my support, for what its worth whether she makes it or not.

Duncs

The best in the business including Jessie Martin (I guess he is well qualified to form that opinion) says she can do it.
The boat is by all accounts a perfect one for her to do it in, set up to suit a solo sailer of her physical stature and abilities.

No one says it will be easy or safe, if you want safe then stay home.

I wish this young girl a safe journey, however I would not consider a 16 year old girl or boy to have had considerable amount of time sailing at that age.

John Bertrand is someone I would consider to have had a considerable amount of time sailing, I am not being argumentative just realistic.

Well said BOR, perhaps you could send Owen a post, he believes driving on the road is more dangerous than Jessica sailing solo around the world, and has read books to justify his beliefs. The ocean is a killer, she'll need plenty of luck and God on her side.

Oh and as a father of two girls 17 and 19 I'd much rather they took inspiration in their chosen fields from Jessica Watson than some druggo in a bad "reality" tv show.

Geoff

Thats one factor that obviously makes doing trips like this solo a bigger risk and test of stamina.

I agree Mike,

She hit a ship five hours into her first attempt.

It's a damn stupid, dangerous and very risky indulgence. And I stress indulgence, it proves little. Some before her have been lucky, but sooner or later one of these children will die.

And for what?

Makes about as much sense as trying to jump 50 buses on a motor bike.

Cheers,

Jim.

You sure the ship didn't hit her??

Says a lot about a bulk carrier with a supposed professional crew maintaining an effective watch and equipped with the latest radar technology etc and it still manages to hit another vessel.

John,

You've obviously never been in a boat. Even something as simple as fishing in Port Phillip Bay dictates that you keep out of the "Channel". That is LAW. It is an offence to anchor in The Channel in Port Phillip.

Cargo Ships have right of way. They cannot change path in a few seconds like a small craft can. These things disperse around 80,000 tonnes on average. They actually start decelerating and going into reverse to pull them up long before they get to their destination.

In short, anything that gets in their way gets crushed. That is why there is Maritime Law. It is to protect people.

I hope this helps you understand the Seaways.

Regards,

Jim.

Jim

People usually do things for their own reasons, not other people's...

Success or otherwise will depend on her, but something she has already achieved is the courage to follow her dreams, and that is something we should never take away from the youth of today!


Good luck...

Yes Jimmy never been in a boat in my life let alone near a really big ship, you would know of course. (Did I add that I'm scared of water also??)

"disperse 80,000 tonnes on average"?? Based on what average??, maybe you should understand what you are talking about before opening your mouth and removing all doubt.
By they way Ships "Displace" and its an expression of displacement that gives an indication of the vessels size.

The port channel control in restricted waters such as Port Phillip or Western Port are a different situation to largely unregulated sea lanes off the Eastern Seaboard were vessels are not constrained by draft (Traffic Separation schemes aside and its not been suggested that she was within such a scheme area) but lets not even debate that point nor the claim by you that "Cargo Ships have right of way"
Maybe you should do a little research before you next go out on Port Phillip Bay in your dingy to catch a few Flathead, this might be a good start for you.
The International Regulations for Prevention of Collision at Sea Rule 18 —?Responsibilities Between Vessels:

I submit again that given a Professional Crew manning a relatively new bulk carrier equipped with the latest anti collision equipment and fully maintaining a maned watch as required by the IMO and its Class Society that still manages to hit another vessel big or small is telling in its own right so lets see what AMSA and the ATSB have to say in the wash up before apportioning blame to a young sailor.

Landy very well said.

I think you will find that older ships have to stop their engines & restart them in reverse. If they are running on crude oil they have to switch to refined fuel before they can do it, that is why it takes so long.

Also ships have absolute right of way in designated shipping lanes.

A boat displaces an amount of water equal to it's own weight.

A solo sailor usually sleeps with a kitchen timer set on under 20 minutes, as this is about the amount of time that it takes for a ship to come over the horizon & collide with a vessel.

Didnt she leave from Brisbane to go to Sydney.

If so she must have hit the ship in Morton Bay which has a clearly designated shipping channel.

You must give way to ships in this area.

Boy do they creep up on you really quickly as well.

Have been going to Morton from Bribie several times and thought I had miles

of a gap and the ship is really moving faster than it looks.

They are supposed to only do 6 knots down the channel but it seems faster than that.

Graham she was supposedly 15 miles offshore so not in Morton Bay.
Vessels constrained by draft are permitted to maintain a speed conducive to maintain safe steerage so the 6 knot rule you speak of will not necessarily apply to large vessels and will in all likelihood be applicable to small vessels to reduce wake issues??

Shaker there is a difference between a Shipping Channel and a Sea Lane and the rules governing ships constrained by draft and possible inability to manoeuvre are what controls right of way in Shipping Channels.
In Sea Lanes ships do not normally have absolute right of way.
I quantify the statement with the term "normally' as there are a few odd places around the world where separation and other special traffic rules apply because of local conditions.

Constraint of draft rules did not apply in this instance and it was the responsibility of the ship under power to avoid the collision although she should have also contributed to the avoiding the matter by maintaining a better watch and doing more to avoid such collision.
Even if the rules are with you discretion is the better part of valour when your in a 10 meter yacht about to get run down by a bulk carrier, you may be right but your still gunna hurt.
This is the point that she has been criticised on, lack of judgement and her watch keeping abilities a big learning curve for the girl.
Having said that I have seen very poor judgement exhibited by Master Mariners with many years of experience with much bigger vessels more than once in my lifetime.

No ship I have worked on in the last 27 years have required a fuel change before changing gears so to speak, not sure where that came from??
If a vessel displaces an amount of water equal to its own weight its termed neutrally buoyant, vessels must displace more than their weight to remain positively buoyant and do the job they are designed for.

Isn't displacement worked out on Archimedes Principle?

"The word "displacement" arises from the basic physical law, discovered by Archimedes, that the weight of a floating object equates exactly to that of the water which would otherwise occupy the "hole in the water" displaced by the ship."

Also in regard to ships needing to change to refined fuel, I did qualify that by saying "older ships"

Also, it goes without saying, that you never test the 'power gives way to sail' rule, when you are in a comparatively tiny vessel.
A lot of vessels are virtually invisible to ships radar unless they are equipped with a radar reflector.

My concern is based on experience rather than what I have read in the paper.

My most recent boat was a 38 foot, Ken Lacco designed, displacement hull motor cruiser, driven by a GM 371 diesel. Anyone familiar with Lacco's boats would know she was an immensely seaworthy old chugger.

I took that old girl out into Bass Straight both from Westernport and Port Phillip. Even in 20 knot winds you develop a very healthy respect for the Sea and it's power.

And knowing dangers intimately is crucial. I only ever went through the Rip at "Dead Water" and that was scary enough. To make a mistake and tackle the Rip at the wrong time in a relatively small craft would be suicide.

I'm just not convinced that at 16 one could possibly have sufficient experience to deal with dangers that may present.

Jim.

Alec & Ken Lacco of Mornington, arguably built the finest timber boats in Australia!

We just sold a 40 footer for $260,000.

John, small point

"No ship I have worked on in the last 27 years have required a fuel change before changing gears so to speak, not sure where that came from??"

large 2 stroke diesel ships engines run on "bunker oil" which is like a cross between tar and treacle. Needs to be heated to flow and be used. These ships will change to "gas oil" or "HSD" (high speed diesel) when approaching port and for manoevering.
Hence you will often see as a ship departs port and is outside the "seabuoy" a large cloud of black exhaust smoke for a minute or 2 as they change to bunker oil.

It is very bad practice to attempt to manoever or stop/restart while on bunker oil.

Thanks fisho64, I thought it would be right, hate to have to tell my father that all his years in the shipping industry were wasted.

"(or the narcissism of her parents)"

Ya know what? I think ya mighta nailed it there......

Having said that, I do wish the young lady all the very best.

:)

Hi Andrew,
All great points.

I thought about the sponsors and their responsibility too.

I can only speak for my thought processes here but if I was approached by Jessica and her supporters to be either an equipment or financial sponsor my first reactions would be similar to your points.

It'd take some fairly comprehensive and convincing arguments and information to sign me up as a major sponsor to someone so young.

That's one of the reasons I came to the conclusion there must be some substance to the attempt.

Surely every single sponsor Jessica has isn't a cowboy, there may be one or even three or four but almost certainly not all of them would be cowboys.

I think from memory your a business owner, maybe look at it as if you where sponsoring her. You'd want some pretty convincing information before the cash or equipment left your pockets!

Anyway, interesting debate. Only time and weather will tell!

Geoff

I work on the theory that if you fail to try you will succeed to fail.

"Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right"!

I was inexperienced, got lucky, now I'm an expert.