Member - Tonyb (FNQ) posted:

All Good Questions Ruth -

Feathery - Take note of these questions from this person who's knows quite a bit about what you are asking.

Cheers Tony

feathery posted:

ok it is a track eagle very strong and light though june rig road east to west french back 2 other 4wds

Member - Ruth D (QLD) posted:

Feathery, contact me on email - ruthdoyle2@bigpond.com - I will tell you privately the answers to the questions you have asked and some you haven't - the 'boys' are too fuelled on whatever to have the discussion in public.
More than I'd tell them anyhow! Most of them know what I will say!
Happy to talk to you.

Willem posted:

You obviously have never been to the Simpson

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Willem
I have, and I agree totally with DIO. Especially if travelling without enough patient souls to get you out of the trouble you've brought on yourself.

feathery posted:

the pathfinder with my self driving has done the gunbarel , csr, simpson, boggyhole , old garn line cape york and crossed nolans brook with 1 meter of water Iam not a idiot as DIO may think but just looking for senable replies such as Willem has given thank you Willem

Willem posted:

Your mate is probably just inexperienced at desert driving

Member - Tonyb (FNQ) posted:

Willem - Swinging your way - I have only done a few of the desert sandhills but a lot of beach sandhills over the years.

It boils down to tyre pressures and correct gear selection for the initial run at the dunes.

If you get it all right there is not a lot that should stop you in Australia.

14 & 8 as you said will do the trick - On the other hand the authorities are trying to stop people taking trailers...so maybe its only a matter of time.

Cheers Tony

Krakka posted:

Kimberly kamper can, depending on the model weigh around 1.2 tons empty, mabe 1.6 to 1.8 loaded. I am not surprised he struggled. Towing that sort of weight through ANY sand environment is going to be hard work for any 4wd.

Krakka

Crackles posted:

And to add to that 1.5+ tonnes Krakka, Kimberly's often have ridiculously long drawbars to belly out on the dune crests. Great quality & features but a shocking trailer to tow through the desert.
Cheers Craig............

Willem posted:

National Parks discourage the towing of trailers as it is impossible to stop the inexperienced drivers from going out there with trailers in tow. Rescuing them or having abandoned trailers in the desert goes against the grain of work ethics by the rangers. That is really the crux of the matter.

The incidence of trailer failure compared to those crossing the desert must be miniscule

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Willem, your hormones are showing!! It is not about proving how skillful you are, or how strong your rig is. It's more to do with (a) unnecessary hard work for you: (b) inconvenience for others while you go sand mining on the track; (c) avoidable damage to the track. Then there are the issues you raise, like gear failure (sometimes not the trailer but the overworked tug) and rescue/retrieval.
Yes, Willem, it CAN be done, but the relevant question is SHOULD IT be done.
And the asnwer is no.

Willem posted:

Chris, I cannot recall meeting you in person. So I am not sure what the 'hormone' quip is all about except to draw me out to make a comment that may be moderated.

You sound like an OH&S Officer walking the beat espousing safe work practices. And we all know how over the top modern day workplace related rules are!

Too much emphasis is placed on what is good for ones health or daily practice in going places.

The original tracks bulldozed by the Mining Companies in the 1960's damaged the environment in the first place. There is no such thing as track damage in the desert where there is an existing wheeled track. Wind erosion, shifting sand and vehicle wheels pounding the sand surface change the configuration of the sand from time to time. As there is no track maintenance, no damage can be attributed to the track, be it the French Line, WAA, QAA, Rig or other tracks of the Simpson

If National Parks Authority really wanted to exclude trailers from being towed across the Simpson, they would have done so already.But it may kill business in Birdsville and other places so that is left in abeyance.

Should you tow a trailer across the Simpson or other desert tracks? Why not?
The incidence of inconvenience would be minimal. Trouble is lotsa people are in a tearing hurry to nowhere and make comments like yours above.

Cheers

Member - Scoof (SA) posted:

Willem you are spot on, it can be done and it has been done without damage to track or trailer.
We did it in 2005 with stock standard vehicles and had a ball never got stuck or bogged once.
We did see a couple trailers that didn't make it left to rust on the side of the track.
The trailers were not fit for the trip across the desert all had broken draw bars and were not off road trailers but garden trailers at best.

Tyre pressures , sand flag and UHF radio is the most important for your safety and others coming towards you.

Don't be put off by others that may not have even ever given it a go.

Happy travels and take your time its a awesome place.

Kind Regards Scoof . :-)

Member - Mfewster(SA) posted:

I am with those advising against it. Yes, it can be done, but consider the following. There are something like 800 dunes to be crossed. Towing a trailer you often will be working very hard with little room to manoeuvre about the time you get to the crest. It is good practice to have had a look at what you are going to be dealing with the moment you go, virtually blind over that crest, usually with quite a lot of revs up. There may, or may not, be an oncoming vehicle and they may, or may not, have a sandflag or have been in communication with you already. There may, or may not be a steep drop off that you need to know about. A trailer gives you very little room to manoeuvre. A vehicle without trailer in front has a better chance to have a look and talk aver the radio to you. On your own, with a trailer it would be very prudent to walk to the top first and have a look. That’s quite a lot of getting out and walking up.
If you really insist on taking a trailer I suggest that you are in a party of three vehicles, the other two not having trailers. One travels in front of you, the other behind. This allows you to be snatched either forwards or backwards as the occasion requires. In many places there wont be the option of one vehicle going around you, so you need one at either end. This arrangement will save you a lot of digging; backing a trailer down steep, soft slopes with bends; unhooking and winching or snatching a trailer etc.
I’d also be very nice to the mates in the vehicles you are travelling with. They could be getting a mite impatient by the end of the trip.
PS for Willem. I don’t think this has anything whatsoever to do with the work ethic of Rangers. More relevant is what it’s going to cost you to be recovered if things go pear shaped. Ruth's initial questions are especially relevant.

Willem posted:

As with most things in life....some people see the donut while others see the hole....:-)

Mfewster....you would have done well in Geoffrey Robertson's TV show Hypotheticals....LOL

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

It's called a different opinion, Willem. No need to resort to abuse, of either me or Mfewster.

Richard Kovac posted:

Well there got me "Willem. No need to resort to abuse," where was that?

Member - Mfewster(SA) posted:

Willem, I'm scratching my head trying to follow your post. As I said, Ruth's original questions are highly relevant. Time of year? Number of vehicles? etc. All very pertinent to an informed answer. Or don't you think they are? I don't say it can't be done, I just tried to give a picture of what it is like and why, if you are going to do it, being in a group might be a good move. I've been in a group of vehicles over the Simpson where one had a trailer. Absolutely nothing hypothetical in my post at all, just trying to explain the reality of what it is like. So your point was?

Willem posted:

Sigh!!........I was going to leave my last comment at that....nevetheless here goes.....

Quotes:....

"There may, or may not, be an oncoming vehicle

and they may, or may not, have a sandflag or have been in communication with you already.

There may, or may not be a steep drop off that you need to know about.

On your own, with a trailer it would be very prudent to walk to the top first and have a look.

If you really insist on taking a trailer I suggest that you are in a party of three vehicles, the other two not having trailers. One travels in front of you, the other behind. This allows you to be snatched either forwards or backwards as the occasion requires"

.....end quotes

All pretty much Hypotheticals and ' WOT IF ' to the extreme

Most of us just drive over the dunes (trailer on tow or not) and enjoy the desert ambience. Every now and then one may have to reverse down and take another line or if the worst comes to the worst, find another place to cross over.

In 7 treks through the Simpson (all of the tracks and some offtrack) including 3 with a trailer, I have been bogged twice and have had to find an alternativer crossing once and have reversed down maybe three dunes. Its no big deal.

And here endeth the case. No further correspondence shall be entered in this thread :-)

Member - Mfewster(SA) posted:

Willem, you have to admire it when a post is concluded like that. Sort of like Abraham receiving the 10 commandments from on high and being told to just do them and no further correspondence will be entered in to. Is it OK if I touch my forelock?
"Hypothetical" is usually taken to mean an outside possibility. Nothing hypothetical or extreme in my scenarios, they are the actual driving situations you have as you cross most dunes. You see nothing until the nose of your vehicle tips downwards and you can see what is waiting for you and what you have to react to. And lets face it, it's also a lot of fun. And I can only agree about enjoying the desert ambience. I have tried to show why, as post after post from others to this thread have stated, towing a trailer, especially for a lone vehicle, is not the way to enjoy the desert ambience.
Perhaps you might like to re read the reason you initially gave as to why trailers are discouraged. Did you really mean that?

rocco2010 posted:

Giddya,

10 Commandments? That was Moses. Or was it Burt Lancaster ...

Cheers

Rocco

Member - Graham H (QLD) posted:

Well as far as I know it was Charlton Heston

Member - Tonyb (FNQ) posted:

To answer the original question posted :-)

Very Experienced - So will have no trouble with 4 x 4 issues there.

How much trouble will I get in - Well trailers are not banned as yet, so I can only assume you will not get into trouble when you tow you Camp Trailer across the Simpson.

Have fun doing it.

Cheers

Member - Leave_enough_space posted:

Well, it all depends on what you mean by "get into trouble"!
LES

Shaker posted:

Quotes:....

"There may, or may not, be an oncoming vehicle

and they may, or may not, have a sandflag or have been in communication with you already.

There may, or may not be a steep drop off that you need to know about.


These situations may occur with or without a trailer, having a trailer makes them no worse.
Isn't it normal practice to keep others informed of your whereabouts & if in close proximity announce by radio that you are about to cross a dune?
Or is that just me?

Member - Mfewster(SA) posted:

Shaker, of course its normal to warn others that you are about to cross. But does that oncoming vehicle have a UHF? Is it on the same channel?
Having a trailer makes it considerably more difficult. How much so depends on the grunt of the tow vehicle and the size/weight of the trailer. On big soft dunes, especially those with a vertical lip, hidden dropoffs and sudden changes in direction, a trailer adds significantly to traction issues as you try to maintain revs and find a line or try to avoid any sideways movement. If you decide to take a trailer, having a vehicle in front to read you over is a big help.
I wonder how many of those reading this thread have also been reading the thread currently running of a report on a recent crossing and the conditions they struck?
No-one has said it can't be done, the question is more about whether it is wise to give someone who asked for advice the impression that it isn't a problem, with no discussion of the trailer/size/weight/tow vehicle/number of vehicles etc.

Shaker posted:

I agree that having a vehicle without a trailer leading is a good idea.

However, I don't agree that you wouldn't take a trailer based on the assumption that others may be ill prepared & have no UHF or be on the wrong channel.

We just did the CSR, 3 with camper trailers & the lead vehicle without.

olcoolone posted:

I have to LAUGH.....it is really funny.

I'm with you on this one Willem, we tow our Ultimate everywhere and including some very hard going virgin ground.

We towed the Ultimate with three other 4x4's towing Ultimates through the Simpson 2 months ago.

Our Hilux weighed in at 3100Kg and the Ultimate at 1400Kg and we had no real problems (except Big Red was a hard slog), we had to back down a few dunes to get a bit more speed but in all it was a relatively fun easy drive.

I would call myself experienced but in no way a professional.

We ran 20 psi on the front, 18 on the rear and 14 on the camper for most of the trip, I think a couple of times we had to go lower.

And please don't get beach sand driving mixed up with desert sand driving, in the desert the sand can have very little body to it as opposed to beach sand that has a moister content.

Sure they are close to one and other but desert sand can be very soft.

All I can say is do it!

It's a great experience and even better with a camper in tow.

You might want to lift the Pathfinder a couple of inches and get some better tyres....and thats about it.

I think some people have lost there sense of adventure and may I suggest a bus trip for future travels.

Member - Mfewster(SA) posted:

Shaker, I didn't say that, I tried to give an idea of a number, repeat, a number, of the things the driver needs to be dealing with as you hit the crest of a big dune. I agree, it's good fun, but trying to deal with a trailer as well kind of takes the edge off it.

Member - Scoof (SA) posted:

Yeeehaa olcoolone ,
I don't see what all the fuss is about either. It's really not that hard.

I would rather set my camper up any day tents are a pain in the butt.Been there done that it's yesterdays.

Flip the top of the trailer over, beds all ready and so is every thing else on the trailer ready to use and enjoy.

Beats stuffing around putting up a tent unpacking the bedding and mattress putting it inside a tent then pack it all up next morning , thats real fun. LOL

Kind Regards Scoof . :-)

Member - Tonyb (FNQ) posted:

olcoolone - Your quote "And please don't get beach sand driving mixed up with desert sand driving, in the desert the sand can have very little body to it as opposed to beach sand that has a moister content".

The silica sand of Cape Flattery in the heat of the day in the dry season I would say is very much like desert sand. Some of the climbs make Big Red a baby.

I have done both - The desert only a few up to date have I had a play on. In the future a lot more. The only time I thought I would not make a climb so far is in the Hot Silica beach Sands.

So I would say it would be much the much depending on the conditions at each place at the time you try the climb.

One thing you do see on the Cape Flattery beach climbs is Boards, nets logs etc etc. A lot of experienced drivers can not always get off this beach.

Willem posted:

Kim

'settles the sole'



Que?????.....LOL


Cheers

Kim and Damn Dog posted:

Your an evil fella. LOL

Regards

Kim

Krakka posted:

Have YOU tried it? I'll also bet the NUT in the wheelchair is not doing it alone!

Krakka

Member - Tonyb (FNQ) posted:

Dean - Bet you he did not ride up the sandhills :-)

Bloke in the wheelchair will not be climbing the hills himself :-)

Go do the Simpson in a well prepared car and Trailer in the heat of summer in the heat of the day and then post with some knowledge and answer your own question "So how can it be so damm difficult to tow a well prepared trailer!" :-)

Cheers

Member - greg S (QLD) posted:

Krakka,

"the Nut" you are probably talking about is Kurt Fearnley. He is one tough bloke. I have met him and he is a nice bloke as well. He will give the Kokoda all he has got.

Willem posted:

Now that comment might have some merit....LOL

Member - Roachie (SA) posted:

I've changed my tune a fair bit on this subject over the years.

I've only ever crossed the Simpson once. I was towing our Ultimate Camper (in 2004 from memory) and had very little trouble. Didn't need any assistance going from east to west (which is supposed to be the more difficult direction).

I had to reverse back down one dune as I'd selected the wrong gear and ran out of puff in my then 4.2TD Patrol. Reversing down, even with a dog leg to negotiate, wasn't all that difficult as the tracks acted like train rails and sort of steered the camper around the kink.

We were lucky as the desert had been closed for several days leading up to our trip (we actually had to spend an extra night in Birdsville because the tracks were closed). Closure was due to the preceeding rains. The rain served to dampen-down the sand , hence our journey was relatively straight forward and trouble-free.

This has led me (in previous posts when this subject has come up) to be an advocate for the "YES" camp.....as in "Yes it is okay to take a trailer across the Simpson".

However, all things considered, I don't think I would attempt it again. We were lucky with the wet sand, making our trip relatively easy. Also, I still do believe that a vehicle plus trailer WITH THE 6 TYRES REDUCED TO APPROPRIATE PRESSURES, will cause less damage to the track than some of the w@ankers who INSIST that they don't need to drop their pressures (or don't know any better), because they have a powerful engine and they aren't towing a trailer.

So, why have i changed my tune? Well, on balance, I feel there are probably more people who are ignorant of the tyres pressure issues (OR who choose to ignore what has been well publicised in this regard), than there are those folk who do the right thing.

I've seen far too many sand tracks turned to almost un-drivable muck by these idiots who won't reduce tyres. The worst ones I have seen were a variety Bash through the tracks out in the Gawler Ranges (SA). I think they may have been along Goog's Track doing the same thing too. Most of the vehicles were 2wd of course, but that didn't stop these fools from thrashing their steeds as far up each dune as they could, before calling in a 4x4 with snatch strap to get them over the top. I wasn't there when this was happening, but I saw it on the TV reports that were so proudly shown by channel 10 , as they had a reporter travelling with the Bash. Just a pure shame they had no idea.

Sorry, I went off on a tengent there for a minute..... ;-)

Anyway, that's my take on it. It's okay IF (and it's a very big "IF") the vehicle is powerful enough AND the tyre pressures are down very low.

Roachie

feathery posted:

the fact that i have experenced a lot of 4wd is the reason why i ask as i am not to proud or arrogant toask as you appear to be

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

I for one one do NOT think you are the least bit arrogant to ask. I also think there are quite a lot of us who say, yes you can, but no you shouldn't. The tracks are increasingly being wrecked by whatever ( traffic, seasons, dryer years) and only blind freddy will say keep going the way we've been used to.
We should be saying yes we can, but no we won't. And that goes for trailers and 40 PSI fast traverses and a few other things too.
Having crossed five years in a row via the Rig Road, I can say that the condition is fading fast. With no maintenance ( and no one willing to step in to perform maintenance) it will not be long before the tracks are re-designated as simply NO-GO.
Under these circumstances, "I can so I will" is a pretty weak attitude.
But ...

Crackles posted:

Sorry Feathery. I simply asumed seeing you had "done the .... csr, simpson..." etc in the car in question that you would be able to tell if it could tow a trailer or not. I was mistaken. In that context it seemed a strange question to ask.
Maybe if you respond to Ruth's initial reply (How many vehicles? Type of 'off-road' camper? What time of the year? Which way travelling east to west or other?) then everyone would have the basic info needed to accurately answer your question. Without it everything is pure speculation.
Cheers Craig..........

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Thank you, Ruth. That needed to be said.

Richard Kovac posted:

Ruth

I'm sure by now you know that this Forum is just a weeing contest for Big blokes with nothing else too do... LOL done it 5 time's done 2000000 times.

Lets hope that one day before they die they grow up... :-)


Richard

Willem posted:

Dear Ruth

Yer getting soft living on the east coast.......pandering to sooks :-)

Wot's wrong with some robust debate. Gotta sort the men out from the boyz, what!

Dear Richard

Yer'll keep!!!

Who wants to grow up?...lol


Cheers

Richard Kovac posted:

Willem my dear, that was not directed at you...

but If you like it you can have it... LOL

you can see the 2 months on the wagon is over ... I can't remember sending it.. :-)

I Bruce Rock for the Vietnam Veterans week, parade today and night out at the rec. centre to night.

today

lots of money

Cheers

Richard