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Solar panels

Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 13:17

Member - Daryl N (NSW)

Dear All
I'm about to purchase solar panels to run a fridge - preferably 2 x 40watt - as they will be easier to pack in the limited space we have. Does anyone have any recommendation on what type and brand to purchase or what type or brand not to purchase.
Also is there any voltage regulators that should be avoided
Cheers
Daz
ThreadID: 73591 Replies: 13
Views: 1503 FollowUps: 72
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AnswerID: 390367   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 13:34

Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) replied:

Hi Daryl
I admit that I know very little about solar panels, but I know Engel have a 80 watt solar panel pack, complete with regulator, and ready to connect to your battery. They output 4.66 watts, which you may be aware that the 40 Engel only draws 2.5 amps max, so you are then putting a little in reserve into your battery and selling around the $950 mark complete with bag.

You will get a lot more replies from more knowledgeable people for sure.

Cheers

Stephen
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Reply 1 of 13
FollowupID: 658133   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 13:44

oldtrack123 posted:

Hi

A 80watt panel will put out 4.66amps max in bright sun between about 9am to 3pm
Your Engel depending on model will draw up to 4.5 while running
. Depending on how cold you set it & how much you open it & what warm goodies you put into it & the air temp around it, will determine how long it runs for.
It is very unlikely you will have any to spare & will most likely be drawing down on the battery
FollowUp 1 of 6
FollowupID: 658135   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 14:01

Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) posted:

Hi Oldtrack123
I have mentioned the 40 litre Engel, which will draw a maximum of 2.5 amps, regardless of if it is fridge or freeze cycle. I know that the 60 and 80 litre fridge will draw 4.5 amps, but sorry not the 40 litre. As you can see from my above reply, I made mention only to the 40 litre. Even in freeze cycle, when the compressor is running most of the time, the 40 litre Engel power consumption is 2.5 amps per hour. If you do a google, regardless of what panel brad you buy, they all say that the 80 watt twin panel are ideal for 40 litre fridges, regardless of brand of fridge.

Cheers

Stephen
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FollowUp 2 of 6
FollowupID: 658156   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 19:39

oldtrack123 posted:

:
Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) posted:
r. If you do a google, regardless of what panel brad you buy, they all say that the 80 watt twin panel are ideal for 40 litre fridges, regardless of brand of fridge.Quote "

Hi Stephen
2X 80WATT panels will run an Engel MOST of the time IF you Get 6hrs full sun @ 4.5amps per panel+ another couple of hours @ 3amps per panel.Giving total of approx 60amphrs .
Your fridge amphrs used CANNOT be the same irrespective of settings , ambient temp & loading..[Physics simply do not allow it]
Have you actually checked the current draw of an Engel you will generally find it is around 3.5<4amps. If you are using manufactuers figures,The quoted figures are averaged over 24hrs & NOT ON FREEZE CYCLE.
A single 80watt [or 2x40w ]Will give a MAX output of approx 30amphrs per day,.
Even based on 2.7 amps actual run current & only running for say 33% of the time it will use 21,6amps during that 8hrs 0f running.
During the night period, the battery will have to supply the amphrs & be recharged by the solar, WITH EFFIENCY LOSSES DURING DAY.
With perfect conditions ,tracking the sun, & the thermostat set to obtain about 4c, Fridge, in shade & kept cool you may JUST manage.
FollowUp 3 of 6
FollowupID: 658211   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:23

paulnsw posted:

Stephen time to do some homework on sunshine reality and panel outputs
This is seldom going to ever be possible "2X 80WATT panels will run an Engel MOST of the time IF you Get 6hrs full sun @ 4.5amps per panel+ another couple of hours @ 3amps per panel.Giving total of approx 60amphrs". These panel outputs are reality in the real world.

So many posts you see here about batteries, solar panels and fridge other equipment running times and power output or power consumption are fantasy.
FollowUp 4 of 6
FollowupID: 658240   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 10:44

oldtrack123 posted:

Hi Paul

An excellent link, giving the real picture, however I would suggest it is based on fixed panels set to optimum for location.
As such fixed flat panels would give even lower daily outputs

My comments where based on SUN TRACKING throughout the day ,with portable panels , heavy cables & of course bright sun

Yes agree too many figures posted are pie in the sky [such as fridge demands,very rarely high enough] & over optimistic outputs from solar panels.


To Others
Solar panel output is generally rated @ 17v approx,as per name plate. [& as stated by others is determined @ a standard light intensity & panel temp]
This is somewhat similar to a CLEAR sunny day With PANELS @ 25c.
Short circuit rating means nothing when charging a battery & should be ignored.
The panel output amps, is relatively constant[with the same light conditions] irrespective of battery voltage
The ONLY way you will get higher amps output is IF the solar input, due to highly reflective cloud etc increase the solar irradiation. This can occur @ times.
FollowUp 5 of 6
FollowupID: 658245   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:01

oldtrack123 posted:

Hi
An edit to above:
"This is somewhat similar to a CLEAR sunny day With PANELS @ 25c & facing directly into the sun"
FollowUp 6 of 6
AnswerID: 390373   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 14:33

KiwiAngler replied:

Daryl

I have had one of these for a couple of years now and it has been great.

Kulkyne Solar Panels

Quality is good, service is good - product does what it says it does
Reply 2 of 13
AnswerID: 390376   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 15:43

dazza62 replied:

I have been in the market for a solar panel myself and a recent post spoke about panels and pointed out this supplier

Solar Panel

I couldn't resist and made an offer of $350 delivered for a 80w setup.

It arrived yesterday and like a kid in a lolloy shop I have been running it all day today.

Temperature has been around 34 degrees and the Unit has consistently been putting out around 14 volts.

IMHO sufficient to keep my battery charged whilst the fridge keeps the VB cold.

Since I personally don't run anything directly off the panel it will suit my needs very well and at a much better price than others around.

Time will tell!!!
Reply 3 of 13
FollowupID: 658141   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 15:45

dazza62 posted:

Here's a link to the actual Unit

80w Solar Panel
FollowUp 1 of 45
FollowupID: 658146   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 16:58

Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) posted:

Hi Dazza
Keep us in formed. They look a top unit.

Cheers

Stephen
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FollowUp 2 of 45
FollowupID: 658158   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 20:11

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Who is the panel manufacturer ??

I've googled the only name used: "25 year Warranty on all *Informon* Panels"
with no results relevant to Solar systems on the first two pages.

The specs state:
"max power voltage 18v" <-a bit low ??
and
"Includes Regulator" <-what brand is supplied ??

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 3 of 45
FollowupID: 658162   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 21:01

Member - Porl posted:

Ir's not the volts output that makes the difference, its the amphours.

My BP Solar 2 x 40w unit puts out 4.73 amphours at around 25C in full sun.
FollowUp 4 of 45
FollowupID: 658177   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 22:44

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Porl,
are you suggesting a lower voltage rated panel is more efficient than a higher voltage rated panel ??

Your claimed "4.73 amphours" (is actually Amps) is unrealistic, because BP claim the maximum Amps is only 2.31

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 5 of 45
FollowupID: 658182   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 23:16

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

"My BP Solar 2 x 40w unit puts out 4.73 amphours at around 25C in full sun"

"Your claimed "4.73 amphours" (is actually Amps) is unrealistic, because BP claim the maximum Amps is only 2.31"

BP 40w panel

Model: BP340J
Max Peak Power (MPP): 40 Watts
Voltage @ MPP: 17.3 V
Current @ MPP: 2.31 A
Open Circuit Voltage: 21.8 A
Short Circuit Current: 2.54 A
Dimensions: 655 x 537 x 50mm

Multiply these by two. for 2X40w unit.

And 2.31 is not the maximum current, It's the current at maximum power point MPP in standard conditions. (solar radiation of 1 kW/m2 I believe).
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 6 of 45
FollowupID: 658183   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 23:41

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Lex,
Read the post as posted, don't pick bits and pieces to suit yourself,
The post is about the charge going INTO a battery

Lex, are you suggesting the BP340J panel will send the 2.54 Amps *Short Circuit Current* to the battery ?
Because if you are, yes your numbers are feasable
If not then 4.73 / 2 = 2.365 Amps per 40 watt panel, which is higher than the Current of only 2.31 Amps as I posted above.

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 7 of 45
FollowupID: 658188   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 00:08

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

Maîneÿ

You read the post as posted, don't pick bits and pieces to suit yourself.
My followup is to your followup that Porl's statement is unrealistic. Nothin more or less.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't understand solar panel specifications.

The 2.31 amps at MPP and the short circuit current of 2.54 amps
are manufacturers ratings at standard conditions of 1 kW/m2.
Thats 1 kilowatt per square meter of solar radiation impinging on the panel.
It is quite possible to have more than that in good conditions.

Even at those standard conditions the output at a typical charging voltage of
say 14 volts will be somewhere between the 2.31 and 2.54 volt figure.

This can be demonstrated because:-
At the open circuit voltage 21.8V the current is 0A
At the MPP voltage 17.3V the current is 2.31A
At short circuit voltage 0V the current is 2.54A

Therefore Porl's statement of 4.73 amps at 25C is quite possible.
Not unrealistic as you claimed.
That's what I suggested, nothing more, nothing less.


Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 8 of 45
FollowupID: 658190   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 00:14

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Lex,
Sorry I don't agree
but it's typical of you, you get asked to clarify a question and you don't

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 9 of 45
FollowupID: 658192   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 00:19

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

Maîneÿ

I'm sick of your games.

This was your question

"Lex, are you suggesting the BP340J panel will send the 2.54 Amps *Short Circuit Current* to the battery ? "

This is my answer.

Therefore Porl's statement of 4.73 amps at 25C is quite possible.
Not unrealistic as you claimed.
That's what I suggested, nothing more, nothing less.

That must be too many big words for you. I'll try again.

My answer is NO

Happy?
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 10 of 45
FollowupID: 658194   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 00:30

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Lex,
see it was just a one word answer, and you (eventually) got it to print

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 11 of 45
FollowupID: 658206   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 07:41

Member - Boobook posted:

Mainey,

I am curious why you say the panels are no good because of this:-

Mainey said
"The specs state:
"max power voltage 18v" <-a bit low ?? "

That is pretty typical for any '12v' panel and I would have though the lower the Max power point voltage the better for a simple, typical 'inefficient' PWM controller.

In fact if I look at your panels that you often claim to be great compared to no names, the BP and Sharp Multis. they have lower maximum power voltages of 17.6V and 17.2V respectively, both lower than what you claim to be no good.

Your comment seems to have no relevance to the credibility of the panels from what I can see. Can you please explain it to me. Thanks



FollowUp 12 of 45
FollowupID: 658213   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:34

paulnsw posted:

Boobook a little knowledge is wrong wrong wrong and missinformation "typical 'inefficient' PWM controller". Suggest you do your homework on what PWM is and does and how it functions.
FollowUp 13 of 45
FollowupID: 658217   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:44

Member - Boobook posted:

Paul, Can you please explain why that is an issue. And can you show me an example of an efficient PWM controller for a 12V panel. Say over 75% efficient in terms of power
FollowUp 14 of 45
FollowupID: 658218   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:54

Member - Boobook posted:

Oops meant 85%. (75% is pretty common).

FollowUp 15 of 45
FollowupID: 658220   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:56

paulnsw posted:

Bookbook you are clueless to what PWM is and means and functions. Toddle off like a good boy and spend time finding out what PWM is, does and functions. This webiste would not have sufficient storage space to hold all the data on efficient PWM solar regulators up to 97% efficiency.
FollowUp 16 of 45
FollowupID: 658222   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:12

Member - Boobook posted:

Step up to the plate Paul. You called it.

As you said a little information is a dangerous thing. In your case you don't even seem to have a little information. Just grand baseless insults.

I will repeat. Show me a few examples of PWM controllers for recreational use that are above 85% efficient in their power delivery to a charging 12V battery. You say you have so much data that this web site isn't big enough. Just a couple will do. Show us model numbers and specs. Shouldn't be too hard since you seem to have LOL

BTW what FORMAL qualifications do you have that make you the 'put down king'.


Big hat, no cattle. Ha
FollowUp 17 of 45
FollowupID: 658227   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:15

Member - Boobook posted:

Should read "Shouldn't be too hard since you seem to have so many examples. LOL "
FollowUp 18 of 45
FollowupID: 658229   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:21

Member - Boobook posted:

Paul, Actually reading the entire thread, it seems you have attacked 3 posters and just thrown up insults or baseless criticism of what they say. It would be more useful and informative if you held off on the groundless attacks and put up some facts. You will look less inane too.
FollowUp 19 of 45
FollowupID: 658237   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 10:12

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

Boobook

"max power voltage 18v"

Some people only read every third word, hence
"Maximum power point voltage" becomes "maximum voltage"
Quite different things as I'm sure you understand. :-)
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 20 of 45
FollowupID: 658238   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 10:22

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

Boobook and Paulnsw.

Re efficiency of PWM regulators.

It depends how you measure efficiency.

A PWM by its nature switches the available CURRENT to the battery with high efficiency.

As you probably know without MPPT you cannot extract the available power from a solar panel.

So is a PWM efficient. Depends.
Do you get the rated panel power into the battery - no, about 75%-80% of it.
Do you get the available amps into the battery - yes, almost 100% of it
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 21 of 45
FollowupID: 658244   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 10:58

Member - Boobook posted:

That is exactly how I see it Lex M.

Though, while the current can be constant through a PWM there is still a 20- 25% power loss in the system. A correctly selected resistor in series could equally be considered as a 100% efficient on that basis :-)


However, in follow up 16 of 21, where Paulnsw posted that I am clueless on this matter and suggests that I toddle off, claims that "This website would not have sufficient storage space to hold all the data on efficient PWM solar regulators up to 97% efficiency." He is specifically referring to my posts above about *power* efficiency.


It appears that Paulnsw is quick off the mark when it comes to off hand comments and insults, but when it comes to backing up with facts, he "toddles off" LOL.

I guess his initial follow up was his only accurate one.

"Boobook a little knowledge is wrong wrong wrong and missinformation "typical 'inefficient' PWM controller". Suggest you do your homework on what PWM is and does and how it functions."

I just didn't realise at the time that he was referring to himself. LOL



FollowUp 22 of 45
FollowupID: 658247   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:11

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

And also the efficiency or otherwise is not that relevant except during the bulk charge phase of charging. After that the regulator will introduce losses depending on its charging algorithm.

For anyone who is trying to establish the capacity of their solar system, it is necessary to keep the regulator in the bulk charge mode by arranging a suitable load to keep the battery from charging fully. In bulk mode the regulator is putting all available current into the battery.

Once the regulator switches to second stage charging it is controlling the voltage by varying the current, therefore some of the available current is lost.
The Amphours into the battery as measured by the regulator will be less than what was available from the solar array.

Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 23 of 45
FollowupID: 658249   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:29

oldtrack123 posted:

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:
The 2.31 amps at MPP and the short circuit current of 2.54 amps
are manufacturers ratings at standard conditions of 1 kW/m2.
Thats 1 kilowatt per square meter of solar radiation impinging on the panel.

[a] It is quite possible to have more than that in good conditions.

[b]Even at those standard conditions the output at a typical charging voltage of
say 14 volts will be somewhere between the 2.31 and 2.54 volt figure.

[c]This can be demonstrated because:-
At the open circuit voltage 21.8V the current is 0A
At the MPP voltage 17.3V the current is 2.31A
At short circuit voltage 0V the current is 2.54A

Hi Lex
Re above
[a] I would suggest those conditions are rare. Only occur with highly reflective clouds increasing the radiation on the panels.

[b] panel output is relatively flat irrespective of battery voltage for same light conditions. Can you explain how you get 2.54amps.

[c]I believe you may be misinterpreting these figures, if you check a graph of ouput you will find it is not linear.
For most panels it is relatively flat from about 16v.
14v is not a short circuit, so how/why do you apply shortcircuit current to a load that is not a short circuit.
FollowUp 24 of 45
FollowupID: 658250   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:30

oldtrack123 posted:

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:
The 2.31 amps at MPP and the short circuit current of 2.54 amps
are manufacturers ratings at standard conditions of 1 kW/m2.
Thats 1 kilowatt per square meter of solar radiation impinging on the panel.

[a] It is quite possible to have more than that in good conditions.

[b]Even at those standard conditions the output at a typical charging voltage of
say 14 volts will be somewhere between the 2.31 and 2.54 volt figure.

[c]This can be demonstrated because:-
At the open circuit voltage 21.8V the current is 0A
At the MPP voltage 17.3V the current is 2.31A
At short circuit voltage 0V the current is 2.54A

Hi Lex
Re above
[a] I would suggest those conditions are rare. Only occur with highly reflective clouds increasing the radiation on the panels.

[b] panel output is relatively flat irrespective of battery voltage for same light conditions. Can you explain how you get 2.54amps.

[c]I believe you may be misinterpreting these figures, if you check a graph of ouput you will find it is not linear.
For most panels it is relatively flat from about 16v.
14v is not a short circuit, so how/why do you apply shortcircuit current to a load that is not a short circuit.
FollowUp 25 of 45
FollowupID: 658254   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 12:04

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

Oldtrack123

re queations
[a] Agree totally.
[b] The 2.54 is short circuit current from the specs. No battery attached.

I would like further information on the statement "panel output is relatively flat irrespective of battery voltage for same light conditions" Some graphs I've seen of output current versus output voltage seen don't seem to support this.

[c] Did not claim it was linear. And did not try to estimate voltage at 14 because I know it's not linear. Nowhere did I apply the short circuit current to a load. What I said was at 14V the output would be "somewhere between 2.31A and 2.54A."
My guess would be somewhere about 2.34A but I'm not into guessing. :-)
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 26 of 45
FollowupID: 658333   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 22:02

oldtrack123 posted:

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:
I would like further information on the statement "panel output is relatively flat irrespective of battery voltage for same light conditions" Some graphs I've seen of output current versus output voltage seen don't seem to support this.
Cheers
Lex M

Hi Lex
If we take a Bp 380J as a typical case @ 25c & 1kW/mt sq
OCV =22.1v
Vmp=17.6v
A@Vpm=4.55amps
A @ 15v =14.7amps
A @14v=14.75amps
A@sc= 14.8amps
From above you can see that the current ouput thro the battery voltage range[15v max] to sc is relatively flat[0.66% change]
This is fairly typical of all panels though there small differences with manufacturers & type
But with most the change in output from 14v to SC is a straightly sloping straight line,There is always a rapid rise in current from 0amps to A@Vpm[near vertical] which is why they can be considered constant current devices over the normal working range[battery charging],
FollowUp 27 of 45
FollowupID: 658354   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 08:20

Member - Mike DID posted:

Talking about Regulator Efficiency is totally meaningless unless you state "Efficiency compared with xxxxx".

A PWM Regulator is 100% Efficient compared with connecting the panel directly to the battery - that's what the Regulator does. It connects the panel to the battery until the battery approaches full charge, when it starts to switch the connection off and on quickly, to reduce the average current going into the battery - like any charger.

Compared with an MPPT Regulator, PWM is 80% efficient, because MPPT can put 25% more current into the battery than is coming out of the panel. STOP - if you're thinking of posting that it's impossible - firstly search the many posts here about how solar panels work.
Mike R
FollowUp 28 of 45
FollowupID: 658372   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 13:00

Member - Boobook posted:

Another way to measure it Mike is power output available for charging against maximum available power input from the panels. This is how MPPT chargers are generally measured and get 92 - 98% efficiency. On that basis I originally claimed PWM's are inefficient as you only get out 75- 80% of the maximum available panel output power. ( Ie the power that you pay $$$ for in panels.)




FollowUp 29 of 45
FollowupID: 658376   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 13:31

trainslux posted:

Hey Dazza.

Had a look at those panals.
Very tempted to get a set as well.
Do you know what amps its putting out, and what type of controller do they come with??
You say the output is at 14v, do you know the amps there putting out??
The website is pretty lean on info, as too is a google search on the make.

cheers

Trains

FollowUp 30 of 45
FollowupID: 658377   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 13:55

dazza62 posted:

Hey Trains,
Unfortunately I am not that technically minded and only have a multi meter that measures volts.

The Unit ran from around 8 am on Saturday and is still going despite me not being there. It is connected to a battery that was fully charged at the start and is running a Waeco Fridge full of VB.

When I returned home last night from a day on the bay the VB was cold and the battery was showing 12.65 volts. Nothing better than a cold VB whilst cleaning snapper!!!

Forgot to check it this morning will check it tonight when I get home.

Panel is unbranded as is the regulator but so far it looks like it will do what I want it to and at one third of the price others are quoting.

As I stated earlier time will tell but right now I have a Unit that is doing what I want it to do and I have money left over to spend on bait.

Cheers Dazza.
FollowUp 31 of 45
FollowupID: 658399   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 16:39

trainslux posted:

Ahh, got this one Dazza.

If you have the time, when your home, can you put the multimeter on the batt with the panels connected, and in sun, and let me know the voltage.
Very tempted as yourself.
What is the dimensions of the folded unit?

Maybe do a voltage test in the morning, after no sun, then one in the evening after the sun for the day, to see how its going.

cheers

Trains

FollowUp 32 of 45
FollowupID: 658408   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 18:24

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Trains,
believe relevant answers may be:
"panels connected & IN SUN" = 13.6v

"Voltage test in morning ( before ) sun" = 12.6v
"In evening ( 3 hours ) after sun" = 12.6v
(fridge N0T running)

Maîneÿ . . .

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FollowUp 33 of 45
FollowupID: 658425   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 19:45

dazza62 posted:

Hey Trains,
Other post was moderated. Not 100% sure why but have requested reconsideration by the mods.

Panels are approx 540 x 420 folded.

Everything still all going well from my point of view. It is all set up in a sheltered area in full sun. With days in excess of 30 degrees this is probably helping.

Oh Mainey, next time your in my back yard can you shut the gate on the way out LOL

Will post results after weekend.
Cheers Dazza.
FollowUp 34 of 45
FollowupID: 658431   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 20:02

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Dazza,
You say: "with days in excess of 30 degrees this is probably helping"

No, this is definitely *NOT* helping, in fact it will be hindering your results

Maîneÿ . . .


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FollowUp 35 of 45
FollowupID: 658432   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 20:10

dazza62 posted:

Like I said Mainey, I don't profess to be an expert in this area.

So far they are doing what I want them to do.

As previously stated "time will tell"

FollowUp 36 of 45
FollowupID: 658467   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 21:54

trainslux posted:

Thanks Dazza.

Let us know in the other thread how its going after a few days.
What size is your waeco btw, and what temp you running it at?



yeah mainy I realise that in full sun you get the max from it.
I was interested in the voltage in early light, ie not full sun.

yes it also helps if battery has rested for some time to remove surface charge etc to get accurate voltage readings without load on it.

Was just after a rough idea on how it went.


Trains


FollowUp 37 of 45
FollowupID: 658515   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:14

trainslux posted:

Hi Dazza,

Thought I would try and clarify my questions for you a bit better.
Was tired, and trying to wade thru the other posts that were also thrown in confusing the matter.

Getting a voltage reading before sun, or near it, in the morning, shows that the batt has been used during the night, and a voltage reading at the end of the day may show that its not only run the fridge, but topped up the battery.

What Im really interested in, is what the panel puts out at low light conditions.
Ie morning, where the sun is not strong, or in a part shade / low light situation.

If you try this, just put the mulitmeter at the end of the clips, with it disconnected from the battery, it will show what the panel is putting out, without the battery getting in the way.

If you could describe the conditions you test it in with low light, that will help me in my decision making, and would be much appreciated.

Yeah, I know theres probably many other better ways of testing it, but as your only armed with a multimeter that reads voltage, and not amps, its a pretty good start.
Hopefully this wont turn into another bickering session.

And looking forward to the updates after the weekend to see how its going.

Its damn hot here, hows your temp over there??

Trains
FollowUp 38 of 45
FollowupID: 658516   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:30

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

trains,
Only *Amps* will charge a battery

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 39 of 45
FollowupID: 658517   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:39

Member - Porl posted:

And just for the record Mainey, not trying to be inflammatory or elicit a response as to my lack of technical training in such subjects, but my BP 40w solar panels do say clearly on the back of each: Maximum Output: 2.37amps.

They are about 5yrs old.

Trains, trust the roof racks are holding up mate!
FollowUp 40 of 45
FollowupID: 658520   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:57

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Porl,

Below is the present BP tech specs, your panels are obviously different specifications
BP 340J 40 watt panel tech specs

what this means is BP have reduced the power output from their 40 Watt panels in recent years, nothing wrong with that, probably have done it to create less 'green house gass's in manufacturing' or to make a bigger profit from using less material, or they have found a more acurate way of checking the panel tech specs, either way it is not relevant as is only O.O6 Amp.

Maîneÿ . . .

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FollowUp 41 of 45
FollowupID: 658521   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:58

Member - Mike DID posted:

. . . . but the Maximum current out of a Solar Panel ONLY occurs when feeding ZERO volts into a short circuit.

Not much practical use, but it's all part of the way that Solar Panels are specified.
Mike R
FollowUp 42 of 45
FollowupID: 658522   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:59

Member - Porl posted:

yes well i never suggested you were wrong or mistaken. My guess is they found a cheaper way of making them which led to a minscule drop in output.
FollowUp 43 of 45
FollowupID: 658544   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 12:04

trainslux posted:

agree mainy

but maybe you missed the part where Dazza couldnt measure amps with his setup.

maybe you could offer a clamp meter to him so we would see.
I feel this would be more helpfull than your previous posts in this.

Trains
FollowUp 44 of 45
FollowupID: 658545   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 12:12

trainslux posted:

Hiya Porl.

Yep, there fantastic.
Have a rola roof basket on top, (love ebay bargains) as well as that side awning too that I sent piccies of.
Cant live without it now. :)

Strangely, it dosent affect the fuel burn, were still on 10.5lts/100kms in travelling mode with water, fuel, food fridge etc, and pram on the racks. Even with bad head winds.

Thanks again mate, they are much loved, and appreciated, and used.

Trains
FollowUp 45 of 45
AnswerID: 390384   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 17:24

spike46 replied:

Hi, do these portable fold-up solar units simply connect to the battery terminals by alligator clips ? They seem a good alternative to an installed system but I guess they would be easy to steal
Reply 4 of 13
FollowupID: 658149   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 17:57

Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) posted:

Hi Spike
They come with alligator clips, and yes they have to be connected to the main 12v battery that the appliances are connected to.

Cheers

Stephen
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AnswerID: 390388   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 17:56

Mandrake's Solar Power replied:

Of course you could check Members Rewards and find 50 watt panels for $212.50 on special at the moment with a 20 Amp reg - $525 - that leaves a few dollars to buy cables and plugs ...

Rgds

Steve -
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Reply 5 of 13
FollowupID: 658214   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:38

paulnsw posted:

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Inappropriate Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
FollowUp 1 of 7
FollowupID: 658225   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:14

Mandrake posted:

Not a particularly nice term of phrase Paul - However it deserves more than the response I will give it ...

The reason for me not naming the brand in open forum is because I am not at the moment a licenced dealer for the product -
However each panel comes with the manufacturers label and contact details should a warranty problem occur assuming Mandrakes Solar Power is not running of course -
To date I have sold 50 panels and have had only praise for the quality and output that they supply - I have had 1 panel that was faulty and it was replaced by the manufacturer in my next order. It has now been repaired ( a minor problem in the junction box wiring ) and now adorns the roof of my Jeep putting out 8 amps at 19.6 Volts all sunshine long !!

Please do NOT make false assumptions again - It will not be treated as gently !

Rgds

Steve
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FollowUp 2 of 7
FollowupID: 658275   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 15:56

paulnsw posted:

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Inappropriate Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
FollowUp 3 of 7
FollowupID: 658281   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 16:27

Mandrake's Solar Power posted:

Care to quote the consumer law I am supposedly committing fraud under ?

I actually do have a clue about what is good and what is bad - I am good you are bad - My solar panels speak for themselves - I count satisfied customers as proof of that - People who are smart WILL buy from solar suppliers reputable or otherwise - I believe I am reputable , honest and unused to attacks of this nature . I also do not tell lies and stating that I do in open forum is somewhat malicious .

Exploroz is a great website ,with some really good people in it who pass on information and are informative and knowledgeable - none of which applies to you .
Kindly take your malice and don't come back .

With all due respect ..

Steve



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FollowUp 4 of 7
FollowupID: 658282   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 16:43

paulnsw posted:

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Inappropriate Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
FollowUp 5 of 7
FollowupID: 658283   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 16:47

Member - Boobook posted:

Ha ha.

Paulnsw, I see that having demonstrated that you know very little about electrical law, you have moved on to consumer law!!

Are you on a mission insult every poster even though you have no idea what you are talking about? LOL

Why don't you clean up some of your earlier dog droppings and come up with the facts you claim to have, instead of 'Toddling off like a good little boy" when you come up with insults and incorrect information, and starting new baseless insults.

Man you are a piece of work.

Disclaimer - I have no relationship with Mandrake other than being attacked and insulted by someone that doesn't have their facts straight.

FollowUp 6 of 7
FollowupID: 658290   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 17:55

Mark Howlett posted:

Paulnsw your post was uncalled for. You can't attack people for something they haven't done. You could have asked a question on 'what if...' but to go on the attack is unjust.

Mark.

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FollowUp 7 of 7
AnswerID: 390397   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 19:35

ABR - SIDEWINDER replied:

Hi Daz

When you have all the facts, figures and prices feel free to email me for confirmation of price and quality.

Regards

Derek from ABR
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Reply 6 of 13
FollowupID: 658165   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 21:08

Mandrake's Solar Power posted:

And Me too

Cheers

Mandrake
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FollowUp 1 of 1
AnswerID: 390402   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 20:18

Maîneÿ . . . replied:

Daz,
Then when you have done all the above, place some relevant information here, so it can be talked about, it may be something that makes you want to buy a generator :-)

Maîneÿ . . .
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Reply 7 of 13
AnswerID: 390428   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 23:35

Member - Lia H (SA) replied:

Hi All,

Myself and my partner are newbies here, but are planning for our big trip next year, so will be regulars!

I have been trying to follow the posts on solar, and still get a bit lost. I am very interested in the members offer, and we are coming to Vic next weekend, so that could be an option for us (picking up our camper trailer woop woop).

Would someone mind answering the no doubt often asked, but often answered in tech jargon Q: We are running one fridge, few lights at night, no TV, heavy on laptop usage as we are home schooling and I am a photographer, so need laptops on most hours....

I know we need solar panels, and the more W the better. We are putting in a second battery under the hood to charge as we go. Other than those things, I thought we would need cables (how long, how many), an invertor for 240V... I don't know and need some advice on what else we need, and after reading this post - there's different kinds of regulators?? I didn't even know I NEED a regulator!

Any help would be great. Mandrake, are you close to Melbourne?

Thanks, and Hi again,

Lia (and Pete).
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Reply 8 of 13
FollowupID: 658185   Submitted: Saturday, Nov 07, 2009 at 23:55

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

Lia,
now that's good reason to actually *talk* to people in caravan parks who use Solar to power the same type battery system and products you want to take, to get true and realistic answers, not the numbers quoted by solar panel manufactures as their *highest Amperage ratings available* from their panel but the lower realistic Amps available under realistic conditions.

Sure you can use the higher hypothetical numbers and then make an 'allowance' (wonder how big or small) to make up for the low light times and the other times too, but they are only hypothetical numbers and nothing more.
I did a real life test a few weeks ago and posted the results, I was amazed and also embarrassed at the LOW numbers obtained under the conditions at the time.

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 1 of 7
FollowupID: 658193   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 00:24

Lex M (Brisbane) posted:

I would suggest you do some research from an unbiased and authorative source such as
http://www.motorhomesaustralia.net/solar.html

and suggest this book as a good fairly non-technical but accurate reference.
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/books/solar_really_works.htm
Cheers

Lex M
FollowUp 2 of 7
FollowupID: 658198   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 05:51

Member - Sigmund (VIC) posted:

Yes, the Rivers CT handbook also shows how to calculate what you need and provides some case studies of setups and what they need to power them.

There are big diffs in the amount of sun available in diff parts of the country.
_____________________
Cheers, Ern
Subaru Forester and Ivan the camper trailer
FollowUp 3 of 7
FollowupID: 658203   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 07:24

Mandrake's Solar Power posted:

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Advertising/Self-Promotion Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
FollowUp 4 of 7
FollowupID: 658209   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 07:44

Member - Lia H (SA) posted:

Wow. Thanks for replies. Some other people must have kids waking them up as well!

Yes we do need to talk to people..its been hard so far until we pick up our camper this weekend!

Have a few trips planned in between now and the trip around.

I have read a lot and some has sunk in but we need to SEE them working. I think we will go for overkill on both panels and extra batteries as we are very basic campers ...no power normally... But with my work and two kids on lappys all day and we are going for at least a year maybe more...

Ill go now and read the suggested book. Steve can we come through friday? Coming from adelaide so its not off track.

Lia
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FollowUp 5 of 7
FollowupID: 658277   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 16:01

paulnsw posted:

Lisa make sure you buy branded panels from a reputable dealer. Unbranded panels are usually rejects. Being branded needs to have a manufacturers website backup whom you can contact and has a recognised distributor in Australia if you need a warranty claim. Buying no name brand you get left holding the baby and no bath water to put it in.
FollowUp 6 of 7
FollowupID: 658514   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:00

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

FollowupID: 658203
Mandrake's Solar Power posted: ....................................??

Mandrake's post was removed, I've read the "Advertising/Self-Promotion Rule" and understand a legitimate advertiser can mention his own product in the course of replying to a post.

Other 'advertisers' do it, and do it often too

The small advertisers will possibly become larger advertisers probably actually paying for those annoying 'flash' adds we all luv, because of their good advise and service to members, any wrong or misleading information will soon become evident and reported on here anyway and then they will then downsize and vanish.

Remember; big trees start from just one small seed

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 7 of 7
AnswerID: 390439   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 07:47

Member Brian (Gold Coast) replied:

Good morning everyone...... Here is my two cents worth on this subject, but please note that I am directing this reply to Daryl N and Lia and Pete in particular and anyone else that is interested in solar panels, but, like most of us, dont understand, or need to understand, the inner workings of them.

I went down this track about 2 or 3 years ago. We have a Trailblaza 70l fridge, Trailblaza's are probably the toughest, most reliable car fridge there is IMO, but they do like to suck power from the batteries. After many episodes of having drained batteries when we were camped up for a couple of days with no driving, I decided to invest in solar. So far I have not regretted that decision as the panel I bought has not let us down. The next big decision was which panel to buy??? My philosophy with 4wd'ing, camping and adventure type touring is simple. We go to remote locations, where a repair shop may not be close by, so I want accessories that will go the distance. In my mind, this largely equates to "You-Get-What-You-Pay-For". So based on limited knowledge of solar panels, I researched a few different items and then decided to wait until I could afford a good one.

I eventually decided on This One HERE available through ABR. Derek is an advertiser on this site and was never too busy to answer my questions by phone or email and at the time of my purchase was busy relocating his business to a new address if memory serves, yet still met us on time for us to pick up our panel. Can't recommend him highly enough. I took my panel home and set it up in the back yard, hooked up the 4by to it, and ran the fridge from "hot" (i.e. previously switched off) with a full payload of water bottles with warm water, for the next four days, monitoring the fridges performance. Usually just over 24 hours would be enough to drain my second battery, but for four days my battery was running the fridge like a champion. In that four days we did not start the engine once!

The ONLY thing I can say about the conditions is that it was NOT bright sunshine all of the time, I did use my volt meter at times to keep an eye on the battery levels, but to me the ONLY thing I needed to know was that the fridge kept operating. We have used it often and it has not let us down once.

So for me, I am not interested in the technical aspect of my panel, it's not that I'm not tech minded, I certainly am tech-minded, but the solar technicals are of no interest to me. What matters to me is "real-world" trials, which is what I have done time after time with my panel. That's what is important. Give Derek a ring, he's a good bloke who's very easy to deal with.

DISCLAIMER:
1) I have NO affiliation with Derek Bester or ABR in any way, except as a happy (multiple) customer.
2) I am not interested in replies telling me my set up is not performing the way I describe it..... I am here, you are not and it does!!
3) Likewise I am not interested in becoming involved in a shouting match with any "experts" out there, if you don't agree with my post, see my point #2 above.
4) If anyone is in the South East Qld area and wants to see my panel in action, let me know, only too happy to demonstrate it.

Cheers

Brian








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"Common sense will get us through....might be a slow trip but Australia's better seen at 80kmph rather than 120"
Reply 9 of 13
FollowupID: 658216   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:44

Member - John M (NSW) posted:

Brian

In reading this thread, your reply is excellent and for many of us, this is why we ask for opinions on products, equipment and the like on this forum.

We are not after the intricate technical detail of the equipment, but what is the best product for the application from experienced users.

A few days ago I asked about solar regulators and got some good advise on products that I have now researched and subsequently ordered.

I was asked a question from a member why I was not asking for the cheapest unit and the place to buy it. Like most of us we are looking for the right equipment for the job.

Yes, sometimes we have to wait a little longer and put a few more pennies in the jar as someone above said "you pay for what you get"

Again, great comments.

Regards

John
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FollowUp 1 of 5
FollowupID: 658232   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:54

Maîneÿ . . . posted:

John,
I assume your referring to my reply to you:

" Maîneÿ . . . replied:
John, It's probably the first time I've read some-one wants "THE MOST SUITABLE AND BEST / HIGH QUALITY SOLAR REGULATOR, WITH-OUT ALSO ASKING, what is the lowest price unit or where to get it at the cheapest price "

That’s *definitely not a question* by any stretch of the imagination.

I was clearly stating it's really good to see you are prepared to do the research and buy tested and quality products, not the elcheapo unknown quality products.

As I also said it will be good to read your thoughts of the product you have selected .

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowUp 2 of 5
FollowupID: 658252   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:46

oldtrack123 posted:

John M (NSW) posted:.

We are not after the intricate technical detail of the equipment, but what is the best product for the application from experienced users.
Regards

John

Hi John
Unfotunately that approach MAY not get the best result /
Many are quite satisfied with their setup because it APPEARS to meet THEIR needs, but does that mean IT will meet YOUR needs ???.
How often do such posters give FULLl details of their set up, type of use etc??.
Some times the statements made by some experienced users are so lacking in detail as to be completely misleading.to those who do not know better.
FollowUp 3 of 5
FollowupID: 658253   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:53

Member - Norm C (QLD) posted:

Hi Brian, like your post.

As you might recall, I have the same 100W Bifold from Derek. It is a very good unit - very robust and comes with an excellent carry bag, regulator and cables. Just plug and play. Like you, I have some technical knowledge, but when it comes to this sort of stuff, I just want it to work. And I'm prepared to pay a bit more if necessary for quality stuff as I go to pretty remote places.

I use the panel to run 2 x Engel 40 litre fridges when camped up, via 210 AH of AGM batteries. The fridges draw 2.5 Amps each when running (real world, checked with clamp meter). The panels put around 6.5 Amps into the batteries in good conditions (also measured by clamp meter).

From my experience, one of these panels will keep the charge up on your batteries to run one 40 litre Engel, plus a light or two. As I am running two fridges, I fall behind a bit each day, so have to supplement charge every two or three days days (connect to van which has 390 Watts of solar, driving or generator.

Have been in the rain at Girraween NP and Dumaresq Dam (Armidale) for the past few days, so supplemental charging has been needed a bit more than usual.

Norm C
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FollowUp 4 of 5
FollowupID: 658349   Submitted: Monday, Nov 09, 2009 at 06:57

Member Brian (Gold Coast) posted:

John M..... Thank you for your comments, if it helps just one person, it's worth it IMO.


Maîneÿ..... *sigh* John wasn't having a go at you, he was reaffirming his principle of "buying the right gear to suit HIS needs"


Hiya Norm! Armidale..... nice area, we'd like to have a bit more exploring time around there! Did you get to Wollomombi Falls? I guess with the rain there might be not much to see at present.... Did Gayleen tell you she found her keys??? LOL...
Anyway, Yes, I thought you had the Bi Fold 100w, and again for anyone wanting real world testing, Norm and Kabby are full time travellers, living ALL of OUR dreams... LOL.... so if anyone is doing REAL world testing it's these two!! (Obviously I'm just a little bit envious.... LOL) Your comment there Norm, with the fridges/batteries/temps detail, is IMHO, worth far more than to me than a run down on the tech jargon.
OT, we've decided to do the centre next year, so we won't be coming fishing... but the Cape in 2012 looks a certainty!
Travel safe mate and we'll be in touch.

Cheers

Brian

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"Common sense will get us through....might be a slow trip but Australia's better seen at 80kmph rather than 120"
FollowUp 5 of 5
AnswerID: 390463   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 13:02

Member - Daryl N (NSW) replied:

Reading all the replys has gone a long way to getting me up to speed on the technical stuff which I admitt I am still stuggling with.
I guess my problem is how do you know what is a good setup. Prices are variable with the cheepest 80watt setup about 400 dollars. Most suppliers don't indicate what brand panel they are selling only the type (mono crystalline) and some provide more information that others (see below). I also suspect that the quailty of the regulator is important
Am I correct in thnking that the quality of the solar panel is the most important consideration - If so how do you tell which ones are good, and that the type of regulator is also important.
As my wife is always telling me don't buy cheep buy quality



Brand A
80W
Specifications
• High efficiency mono-crystalline cells
• Power Output : 80 Watts ± 5%
• Short Circuit Current : 5.44 amps
• Open Circuit Voltage : 21.6 volts
• Optimum Operating Current : 4.62 amps
• Optimum Power Voltage : 17.2 volts
• Weight : 9.5 kgs
• Length : 550 mm
• Width : 540 mm x 2
• Thickness : 35 mm x 2
• Specifically designed for camping solar applications
Warranty
25 Year power warranty on our own brand of Solar panels.
?
Brand B
Specifications
80 watt
monocrytalline
Rated Voltage 12V
max system voltage 1000v
Operating temperature: -40 to +80 Degree
• Cell monocrystalline silicon solar cells
• Application: DC 12V system
• max power voltage 18v
• Weight Approx 12kg
• Includes Regulator
• includes Battery lead includes alligator clips
Warranty
.
25 year Warranty on all Informon Panels

Brand 3
Specifications:
• Max. power: 100W (Peak)
• Max. power voltage: 17.2V
• Max. power current: 5.80A
• Open circuit voltage: 21.6V
• Short circuit current:6.60A
• Number of cells: 72 (2x 36/panel)
• Temperature coefficient of ISC: +0.08mA/°C
• Temperature coefficient of VOC: -0.37V/°C
• Temperature coefficient of IN: +0.08mA/°C
• Temperature coefficient of VM: -0.37V/°C
• Total Weight : 14kg
• Conversion efficiency: 15%
• Output tolerance: ±5%
• Dimensions: 770 x 539 x 106mm (Folded)
• Dimensions: 1080 x 770 x 50mm (Open)
Reply 10 of 13
AnswerID: 390466   Submitted: Sunday, Nov 08, 2009 at 13:21

Mandrake replied:

Don't forget about your intended use of the unit too -

I used to have an 80 watt panel on the Jeep roof running an 85 aH AGM connected to a Waeco 50 Litre fridge - Up north we had 3 consecutive days over 35 degrees and the fridge was running flat out in the 50 plus degrees of the rear of the Jeep - Battery got dangerously low by end of day 3 - Fortunately for me - I had a 140 watt panel on the trailer and hooked it in to recover the battery and keep the fridge running ... So 80 watts might not be enough on its own .

There are solar calculators here which you can use to work out your requirements .

Rgds

Steve

The Solar Powered Pod !!
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Solar Power does work .. I proved it ..
Reply 11 of 13
AnswerID: 390847   Submitted: Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 at 09:11

Maîneÿ . . . replied:

dazza62,
am posting here because I don't wish to interupt your own thread ha ha

Can you tell me what the second 'black box' is on the panel on left, in the picture you have indicated above you use?
Maîneÿ . . .
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Reply 12 of 13
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Gondola Cruise on the Yarra - Vic Gondola Cruise on the Yarra - Vic
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Enjoy the luxury of cruising Melbourne's Yarra River in our opulently appointed Venetian-style gondo
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AnswerID: 390978   Submitted: Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:36

Maîneÿ . . . replied:

Mandrake
I truly feel sorry for you, having any post moderated because it's due to a breach of the "Advertising/Self-Promotion Rule" when it's so obviously evident your a BUSINESS MEMBER of the EO Forum.
Stick with it :-)

Maîneÿ . . .
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Reply 13 of 13

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