Snatch straps

A jacket would only be useful for wire rope/hooks and other fixed fittings flying back. As the snatch strap has already created and lost all of its spring, and the object has already reached maximum velocity by time the strap stretches back to its original length. Just like a sling shot, snatch straps stretch up to 2 metres during recoveries so even that 2 metres of snap back is enough to hurl up to 3kg a fair distance. Seeing how the object had enough power to go through a vehicle and still land another 90 metres behind, the only thing that can prevent this from happening is proper recovery techniques and equipment. Its pathetic though how there is no law or mandatory information on these straps. Its not hard to be misinformed or ill prepared with these things.

The jacket/blanket or other forms of "airbrake" are myth. They have never been shown to be effective, and do nothing to stop a broken recovery point or shackle.

Snatching from mud or wet sand is the most dangerous form of snatch recovery because the vehicle is sucked down into the mud. A slow and steady winch is the better way to recover in these situations.

And the Coroner in this case needs to be congratulated on his well informed and sensible findings.

Cheers
phil

Hi Phil,
It's an interesting subject, but sad that it can result in people dying.

The "air break" may well be myth, but isn't it better to have one and hope it works than not have one and know it won't? In the recoveries I have seen over the years, it's amazing how many people forget how dangerous it is. I have seen several where I was told "Nah.. you don't really need an air break," and on one occasion the strap did break and flung back smashing the tail lights of the tow-er. I asked him then what he thought of air breaks and he swore at me. LOL... can't help some people!

What I have found is that the winch dampener available from major 4x4 places is useless on a snatch strap, I have seen those become rockets more often than not. They are designed for winching, not snatch straps, in our recovery kit is a large heavy towel that is always tied onto the strap for recovery. IMHO better to have it than not.

Just an opinion.

Cheers

Brian

Muntoo,

That's exactly why the "jacket" (or towel or blanket or whatever) is used. To slow the object, not necessarily the strap itself. The object is what does the damage. A flying strap will cause a lot of damage if it hits someone, but would it kill? I guess it could, but I can't recall reading/hearing of one that has.
In the report above, the coroner (I agree wholeheartedly with Phil that the report seems well informed for a change, and not full of hysterical rhetoric) seems to blame the tow ball as the cause of the death. Again, using the tow ball is a no-no, you know it, I know it, but it's amazing how many people don't know.

As above, "The "air break" may well be myth, but isn't it better to have one and hope it works than not have one and know it won't?"

Just an opinion, and not intended to inflame anyone.

Cheers

Brian

Gday Brian,
This is a good topic to discuss, and I respect your opinion (which is a very commonly held opinion).

The dangers of using something that is useless is that people think it will make a difficult snatch safer. The user will use an airbrake and think it won't matter if something breaks. And you and I both know that a difficult snatch from mud or wet sand is always dangerous.

My opinion about airbrakes changed about 10 years ago when our 4wd club was doing some experiments on a training day. To mimic a broken recovery point, a bow shackle was attached to the end of a strap and the strap loaded and allowed to fling into a 20mm thick plywood sheet. A variety of airbrakes - blankets, tarps etc all cable tied to the strap did nothing to stop that shackle from plummeting through that sheet and out the other side - they didn't even slow it down compared to the no airbrake test. On the other hand, a heavy object (we draped a chain over the strap near the shackle end of the strap) did slow it down. Conclusion is that a heavy object will retard the damage from a broken recovery point.

A few years later our association removed airbrakes from the teaching of snatch recovery.

I disagree that the commonly available "winch dampeners" are useless. They are designed to be filled with sand, mud or a few rocks - without which they are useless. They must be placed towards the end of the strap which is considered to be the "weak link" or which poses a threat to vehicle occupants. Ideally you would need two of these.

Interestingly enough I used to teach to always try for a "rear to rear" snatch recovery, thinking it was safer if something broke. But 2 recent deaths now have been caused to passengers in the rear seats of 4wds.

We need to get away from the mentality of using a snatch strap when you are deeply stuck. That is when it is most dangerous and when a winch is the better option.

Cheers
Phil

An excellent assesment Phil & one that I can back up after witnessing a few real life breakages with similar outcomes to your test.
The skill of a person doing a recovery is being able to assess how stuck the 4x4 is & decide if a quick snatch is required or a slow & steady winch. Unfortunately impatience often wins out.
In relation to recovery points the question needs to be asked. "Would you suspend an 8 tonne Isuzu truck off your tow point?" As at full stretch that's what you are asking of them just prior to a strap breaking!
Cheers Craig...........

Thanks Craig,
The other thing I think is important is the use of an equaliser strap on heavier snatches. Halving the force on each recovery point, and restraining a break should it occur is a lot of extra safety for the $40 spent in my opinion.

Weather's looking good for Omeo next week - hopefully things will have dried out a bit for your trip!

Cheers
phil

PhilG with all respect, your opinion goes against physics and all respected training, experience and advice.

If you believe that they don't work that is fine, but I have seen a strap break, and wrap around the jacket and slow down. Absolute proof that it worked. It still caused some damage to the rear of a Pajero but much less that it would have.

Your club may have done some mimic tests that didn't work, but in the real world I can assure you that they can avoid damage and or injuries.

Gday Boobook,

Your example is of a broken strap, not a broken recovery point. A broken strap might damage a bit of paintwork, but has never killed anyone. It's the broken recovery point (complete with a heavy bow shackle or loop or towbar or bullbar) on the end of an intact strap that kills and is responsible every year for death and serious injury in Australia.

The tests with the straps and airbrakes were performed by members of a registered nationally accredited 4wd training organisation (how many of these do you know of in Australia?). I said "club" to simplify it, and because I don't have rights to the intellectual property or the slow motion videos. It was professional. You will find that bit by bit the airbrake myth is being dispelled, and more registered training organisations are ditching them in favour of the recovery bag filled with sand etc which have the mass to slow down a shackle travelling at 200kph.

Cheers
Phil

Hi Phil,

That's interesting about the tests, many years ago our club often did displays of snatch strap & shackle damage. It was back before our time, but the people involved are still active. I must ask them about this. In my experience, the air brake worked, so I guess I'll just keep using it. I didn't know about filling the winch dampeners with sand, so there ya go.... I've learnt something! Many thanks mate!

I hear what you're saying about "The dangers of using something that is useless is that people think it will make a difficult snatch safer." And I agree with that point.

The thing is that there shouldn't be a "difficult" snatch. If the snatch recovery doesn't work with a gentle pull, or even with a fairly hard pull, then backing up and going harder and faster is likely going to lead to danger IMHO. Before it get's to that point, perhaps it's time to try a different method of recovery. Ok, so that would be in a perfect world, unfortunately in the heat of the moment, a lot of blokes just load up on more testosterone and "go harder!" For me, if I'm a witness to this, that's the time to speak up. If (when?) no-one listens, I walk away.

The other thing that gets me when I see recoveries-done-wrong, is the proximity of bystanders. People have died from flying shackles, tow balls, and in one tragic event here on the Gold Coast about 6 years ago, a young bloke lost both legs because (if I remember correctly, I wasn't there and happy to stand corrected if I have the details wrong) he was videoing a recovery from a vantage point in between the two cars, when the home made bull bar that the strap was "tied" to gave way and smashed through him. Same with that poor young bloke a bit further north from here earlier in the week, sitting in the back seat of the tow vehicle, facing out the back watching the snatch when the tow ball apparently came through the rear window and killed him.

I have yelled at people to get away from a recovery, and been met with blank stares and in some cases, watched the looks passing around the crowd, y'know... like "who's this bloke?" That's not with our club, but when I have been watching other recoveries and the like.

Sorry to go on a bit here.... LOL... you can tell I don't mind a yarn, can't you?.. but I do take it seriously, and it's good to talk with people like yourself who share my view of the dangers involved.

I like Craig's comment too.... very apt IMO, and the equalizer strap is a good idea as well.

Thanks for a healthy discussion mate,

Cheers

Brian.

Phil..
I was busy typing my "story" above when you slipped in with your follow up to Boobook.

Makes more sense when you pointed pout about the winch dampener filled with sand as an air brake instead of the blanket/towell/jacket.
I understand it a bit better now, again many thanks mate!


Cheers

Brian

"If (when?) no-one listens, I walk away."
Had to walk away myself up on Fraser Island recently when they would listen to reason. Apparently this bloke thought it OK to snatch with a 20 tonne lifting sling draped over the tow ball. Tore the recovery point clean out of the chassis!
If you look carefully on Snatch strap break #4 video below you will see an air brake of some discription draped over, & the snatch simply slipped right through as though it wasn't even there.
The amazing thing about almost all those recoveries was there was no preparation work digging out the cars to minimise the strain. Just hook on & GO!
Cheers Craig............

Phil G, you change the story about who did the tests from a club to acreddited testers to make it sound more genuine, then Question if I know of said accredited testers that you just added into the story.

Why don't you add that it happened in a certified lab in the next episode of your story. That would make it sound even better.

It also seems you know you know more about the situation I saw, than I did.

Facts just seem drop into your stories out of the sky. You are very fortunate.


I SAW IT WORKING, regardless of your OPINIONS. I am not saying it works always, but then you are saying it works NEVER. ( with new bits added into the story later to make it more crediable.)

Craig,
Yeah..,. I watched those videos.... and thought exactly the same thing you did... no digging, no prep work at all. I cringed at those, they were damn lucky, especially the one where they were removing a tree with straps shackled together..... there's two guys who should buy a lottery ticket!!
When will people wake up?? :-(

Boobook,

None of my business to intervene here, but IMHO I'd say Phil wasn't having a go at you at all.... his comment "(how many of these do you know of in Australia?)" I read to be a rhetorical question not aimed at you specifically? He is pointing out that there are only a few.

I only read it this way as Phil & I have been EO members for about the same length of time, although I renewed my membership to a later number a couple of years ago, and lost my original number 970, (not that that is important in any way, shape or form, and neither is length of membership,) it's just that I have read many of Phil's posts of the years and have formed an opinion of him and can honestly say that I think he not the sort of fellow who would deliberately inflame anyone over the internet for the hell of it.

Just an opinion.......

Cheers

Brian

"read many of Phil's posts of the years and have" should read "read many of Phil's posts OVER the years and have...."

Sorry

Brian

Quote "you change the story about who did the tests from a club to acreddited testers to make it sound more genuine, then Question if I know of said accredited testers that you just added into the story"

I apologise for the confusion, Boobook. The largest government accredited 4wd training organisation in South Australia is the 4wd clubs DTU. They do a huge amount of work and auditing to maintain this status. Most of the commercial 4wd trainers and assessors that I am aware of obtained their formal qualification here. We don't promote this on public forums - it tends to attract people to the clubs who just want free training. I'm guessing you have a negative opinion of 4wd clubs and their training???

You are still missing the point that we are talking about broken recovery points on this thread - not broken recovery straps. Broken recovery points are lethal, broken straps are not. If you want to discuss it any more, then its best that we go through the MM

Cheers
Phil

Phil, your original point was that it made no difference.

"The jacket/blanket or other forms of "airbrake" are myth. They have never been shown to be effective, and do nothing to stop a broken recovery point or shackle. "

My point was that it can make a difference and in fact I have seen it work.

Then you shoot down my point and even claim to know more about the situation that I witnessed than I do.

You may never have seen it work but it can. Not in every situation but you continue to make over the top statements. Simple.

It's not necessary to take it off line. I know what the facts are.

Hi Josh

An excellent idea.

I wish I could do that. Lie under the car and just look. As soon as I lie on my back I nearly black out. I can't even sleep on my back. Its the special and rare big "C" that I have.

I get a local very reliable specialist 4WD works to do it for me (Hume Off-road). Doesn't cost much and I always get a service done at the same time.

Re snatch strap use. I will bet you that if the involved drivers had done a 4WD course then they young fellow would be alive to this day. Even if one person there had done some training and held his/her hand up!!!

Phil

Might I suggest you consider this.
I have two of them and use one each end of the strap.

http://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/4X4%204X4RSS%20Recovery%20Safety%20Strap.pdf

I don't know how well they work. I've never broken anything.

Very difficult to teach people how to snatch another car out as it's something that needs to be experienced in various conditions. While your method of taking up the slack 1st then pulling away in low low may work for some easy recoveries it simply wouldn't develop enough stretch in difficult or low traction situations.
An example would be a vehicle has lost traction on a slippery clay hill & another car backs down to snatch him up. It would in that case be acceptable to have the cars almost touching & take off quickly in 2nd low, as the tow vehicle has so little traction it couldn't break the strap if he tried. The same recovery on a firm dry surface could tear the bull bar clean off the car!
Rather than fitting dampers to straps I'd be checking to ensure the recovery points are strong enough for the job & installed with high tensile bolts.
Cheers Craig............

"It would in that case be acceptable to have the cars almost touching & take off quickly in 2nd low, as the tow vehicle has so little traction it couldn't break the strap if he tried."


Don't agree.
Themomentum of the tow vehicle and inertia of the other one can still be sufficient to break the strap.

Hello Phil

A very nice compilation, Plugger. Your mate Peter and I were a bit mean and bought a pair of recovery eyes between us for our Prados. Having seen your stuff, I think we should buy another pair so that we both have two recovery points.

Cheers

Bill

Hey Bill!

I guess thats why they sell them as a pair!! You'll need an equalising strap and two 3.25T bow shackles to go with it - never stops does it!

The equalising strap halves the forces on each recovery point; if a recovery point should break it will be retained by the other side; and if pulling at a slight angle, the forces are still equal and avoids chassis twist.

We wish you and Arlene a very happy Xmas and look forward to some more quality time in the desert next year!!

Cheers
Plugger

And a merry Christmas to you and Kathryn of the GVD shirts, and thanks for the card,

I cleaned out the shed the other day and found a 3,800 kg rated chain with a big eye on one end and one of those hooks that goes over the links on the other. Also a couple of big rated bow shackles. This lot should do the job, though an equalising strap, as shown in the last of your video clips above, would be lighter to carry.

Re that last clip - I still reckon that the most useful (and cost-effective) piece of recovery gear of all is the humble long-handled shovel. I don't have an Amex card, but I never leave home without the shovel.

As a corollary to the shed clean out, a four-drawer steel filing cabinet is sitting there for anyone who wants it - pick up from Heathfield, SA.

Best