Who’s using rear wheel spacers on the new Toyotas and any problems?
Submitted: Monday, Dec 20, 2010 at 22:07
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Mick O
The new 78/79 series Toyota’s have widened the front end to accommodate the diesel V8 motor. There is now 100 mm difference between the front and rear wheel tracks. Many people are using spacers of various widths to compensate for the narrow width. Some of these spacers are up to 50mm in width.
I have heard of more than a few incidents involving spacers where the rear wheel has sheered all wheel studs and departed the scene. The recovered wheel still has the spacer firmly fitted to the inside of the rim.
Now I know that their use will void insurance, put undue stresses and strains on diff housings, axles and rims etc but I’d like to know if any others have had issues with the spacers. I personally have had them on, had two issues and promptly removed them.
I would be interested in any issues others have had and also any other solutions to the rear issue such as offset rims etc.
Cheers Mick
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Reply By: Member - Serendipity(WA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 00:14
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 00:14
Hi Mick O
Sorry to see the damage you have incurred. The track width on the new landcruisers is a hot topic with various opinions.
I had a look around on forums about automotives on vehicle track widths and this is quiet
well debated on performance car forums.
Quote - discussing wider front track widths than rear.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6311
"The more track width you can have the better you can take corners for a given tyre size because the load transfer from the inside to the outside is less, so the tyres are sharing the work better.
Even with the likelyhood that track width is driven by the regulations, a wider front track can be useful. As a car brakes and enters a corner (assuming trail braking by the driver) - then the load is transfered from the inside rear to the outside front (diagonally) - a wider front track will help the car on corner entry."
From reading automotive forums on this topic it is very common for vehicles to have a wider front track especially more popular with performance cars with over 70% having a wider front track.
Conversly a narrower rear track width is stated has aiding in traction.
Quote-
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6311
"rear wheels closer together aids in traction, for example dragster rear tires are very close. Having the front track width wider than the rears also helps with being able to change direction more quickly."
Other discussions on forums spell out that many people like the aesthetic appearance of a narrower front end but this contradicts the handling of the vehicle.
As yet I have not found a definitive answer. I personally have not had any issues with the wider front track.
I am interested if others have some knowledge in this area.
Cheers
David
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 19:22
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 19:22
Thanks David,
I have issues with the narrower rear track particularly around stability and cross country travel in that I'm continually breaking new ground with the rear tyres as
well as the front. This affects economy and power no end as
well as exposing me to a lot more nasties that the front wheels have already passed safely.
I'd like to have identical tracks because of my preferred area of travel but would also like that to be a safe option and one that meets ADR and insurance requirements.
Trust the rear
suspension upgrade is everything you hoped for. Best wishes for Xmas and New Year. Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Serendipity(WA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 23:05
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 23:05
Hi Mick O
You make very valid points with not exposing the rear wheels to more possible
puncture damage than necessary and you are quite accurate in that if the rear tyres can follow exactly in the front tyre tracks in sand they work better as the sand is already compacted down.
It really poses the question why Toyota, a company that prides itself on selling top notch 4x4 vehicles would do this.
My research also finds the American Suburban 4x4 by GMC has the same issue of a wider front track than the rear.
So far the rear
suspension has been great. Not stiff or
rock hard but able to carry the camper with little deflection.
I also had the rear LSD overhauled with new slip plates and a 15'000 shim on either side to tighten the whole lot up. Wow. True LSD grip now. Hope it lasts.
Cheers
David
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Follow Up By: Member - Tezza Qld - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 07:36
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 07:36
Hi David
Nissan GU leaf sprung patrol utes also have a narrow rear wheel track. A coil cab has a track of 1930mm and a leaf is 1840mm.
On my GU I had the tray built 1840 wide instead of the normal 1950 to 2000 in width to compensate for the narrower track.
Cheers Teza
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 07:54
Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 07:54
Gday Teza,
Yeah, difference in track on the patrol leaf sprung cab chassis is 100mm - same as the current 79series. Those numbers you quoted were vehicle width and not track. Patrol front track I think is 1605mm. Interestingly with the GU wagons, the rear track is about 20mm wider than the front.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 07:51
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 07:51
Only know of one (new 2009) , and its had no issues and drives a lot better Mic.
Its mostly used for towing though and has no excess load over the rear wheels.
On pre-V8 versions , to get over the hopelessly narrow tracks , I know of several with significantly offset rims - one even up to 50mm but mostly were 30mm I think.
Seperate to above , I also run spacers on some wheel sets on the Patrol without ever having wheels issues.
I think stud fracture issues come down to getting into situations that spike loads onto them via momentary
suspension movements that hit the limits.
Bit like some GU shock towers = usually issues can be traced back to harder
suspension / overloading etc.
Actually I could probably get an engineering opion on this issue with more data - as we have capabiliy to fully model these things , but not before Xmas.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:13
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:13
Thanks Robin. Yes it may also depend a lot on usage of the vehicle at time of incident. Lightly loaded highway work may never be an issue unless you end up being at the mercy of an insurance company due to mishap (not related to the spacers).
I definitely believe that seating the spacers correctly is an issue and may
well contribute to failures. They are not self seating so the risk of movement is ever present and probably exacerbated by rough roads, off track conditions, overloading or a combo of them all.
Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 21:41
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 21:41
Leave it alone Mick O,
Don’t get your knickers in a twist about the extra 100m difference.
I’ve had my Troopy for 2 ½ years – travelled plenty of soft sand, gravel and
rock but not too much mud. 65000 ks - about half the time towing a 3 ton van and with no detriment compared to 4WD’s with equal wheel spacings. I can’t see what you will achieve with spacers.
Regards Dennis
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:44
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:44
Thanks Dennis, I went with the spacers to get the wheel tracks even because of my off track travel. It makes a real difference not having to break extra ground with the back wheels at the front time, particularly when towing. You’re right, on a road, I’d probably have no issues but as I hope to do a lot more in the way of remote desert stuff in the coming years, I’d like to see if there is a way it can be addressed.
Cheers Mick.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:12
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:12
Hi Guys
As with most things you can get away with it but really, even on a bitumen road offset track makes a real difference when its wet and the front tyre doesn't clear the water and you aquaplane more easily.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 13:09
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 13:09
The difference is negligible – you’re making mountains out of mole hills.
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Follow Up By: Flynnie - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 22:12
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 22:12
The effect may exist but it is slight in my experience.
No aquaplaning on the new Bridgestones D694s I have. There was a touch of it with the
well worn Grandtreks at the end of their life in the heavy rains before the change of tyres. Influenced the decision to go for a suitable tyre for wet weather on bitumen.
Only issue I have found is you have to change tyres when they are worn out. Already knew that!
Flynnie
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Reply By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 08:44
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 08:44
Isn't amazing. I have seen several threads and posts re wheel spacers. Yet people still use them and this is an excellent example.
Apart from being illegal in 99% they put undue strain on bearings and wheel nuts and what happens . . . . . Things go more than "bump".
Phil
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:05
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:05
Cheers Phil. Yes I read the threads and made my own decision (to my cost). What these threads didn’t cover were the issues that may, and have arisen. They certainly covered the legalities and limited engineering concerns (involving a bit of physics at times). As my original post stated, I'm aware of the legalities. I’m trying to identify the specific issues that have arisen and let that serve as a caution to those considering spacers. If asked, I will be advising strongly against their use based on my unfortunate experiences and not just the theory aspects of previous debates.
regards and have a great xmas. Mick
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:21
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:21
Actually that may be an excellent approach. Nothing like having "been there".
Cheers mate and a very Merry Christmas to you and yours also.
Phil
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Reply By: Member - Noel K (NT) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 09:30
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 09:30
Morning Mick,
We had spacers on our V8 cruiser ute at work to try and stop the tracking in bulldust and muddy conditions in Arnhemland, one day, luckily in
Darwin, I had this sensation of a flat tyre. On observation no flat, when I moved the vehicle forward there was this awful clunking noise coming from the drive train somewhere.
I had the cruiser picked up by tilt tray and delivered to our mechanic, when they unloaded it the back wheel fell off ! None of the studs were broken but obviously thread damage. Now, we can't proof if the nuts weren't tightened up on installation or they worked loose by themselves. Bare in mind the spacers where in for about 12 months and I have never had nuts come loose.
We were lucky it happened where it did as another 50m I would have turned onto the Stuart Hwy and sat on 100kmh. Up here we can travel at 130kmh, God knows what would of happened then and what about insurance?
We decided it was not worth the risk even though we can't directly prove what actually caused this. We took them out!
Noel K.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 18:02
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 18:02
Thanks Noel. Sounds like you caught it just in time. It is in fact a symptom that I have heard of happening with the spacers. Another contributing factor sometimes being the poor quality of the holes in the rims (see my blog about tyres and rims I did a few days ago).
Cheers and all the best to you and yours for the festive season. Mick
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Reply By: garrycol - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:08
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:08
Wheel spacers are illegal in all states in Australia - automatic defect if observed let alone all the legal issues if there is an accident.
The only exceptions are where a spacer is original fitment by the vehicle manufacturer.
Garry
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:49
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:49
I think thats pretty
well known Gary, sort of like so is 61 in a 60 zone , what I think is the issue here is wether or not their are issues with a given product implementation.
Could be a range of things from poor quality bits , or users not torquing them up correctly etc etc.
This is one of those situations where its the right thing to do from a saftey and driveability viewpoint , but you definately need to know the products going to do the job first.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:09
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:09
Thanks Garry. I think my follow-up to to Phils response has covered what I was trying to do with this post. Robin has enrished it a bit further as
well.
Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:28
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:28
Was just making sure people were aware as I assume a v8 toyo is not going to be just used as a paddock basher where it does not matter.
For some reason Aust authorities have a bee in their bonnet about these things when most overseas jurisdictions have no issue. In Aust why not simply have them made to meet some Aust standard with an individual vehicle application and stamped as such. The other alternative is to have have a different offset for the rear wheels which would would have lesser or no legal ramifications but might complicate the carrying of spares.
I know there is plenty of discussion on the difference in track but in reality I do not think it is such as great issue if tyre pressures when offroad and on sand are correct - afterall except when driving dead straight the rear wheels do not follow the fronts on vehicles anyway.
Garry
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Follow Up By: Rob! - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:43
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:43
Garry,
Maybe they have a bee in their bonnet because of year nine physics.
Get a bucket of water and hold it up close to your chest. Then hold up the bucket at same height but at an arm's length away from your body.
R
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Reply By: Member - Joe F (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 13:08
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 13:08
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G'day Mick
Sorry to see and read about the drama with the wheel spacer(s) on the new beast of burden.
My images of your vehicle in the
Newman shopping centre car park see the beast standing all "Schmik "O". ;0)
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For what its worth, I run a set of four, 50mm wide wheel spacers with the six stud Toyota wheel stud pattern on the Coromal off road caravan.
They are used because of tyre to
suspension clearance issues from new, although not recommended or legal, they do what is required by keeping the inner face of the standard fittment tyres off the standard
suspension spring hanger bolts. Damned if you do ~ damned if you don't.
Safe and peaceful Christmas
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:19
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:19
Hi Joe. Thanks for the info. Hell there’s no sneaking around your town is there!! Here I was thinking our brief meeting at the Caravan park was it. There’s no doubting the beast has seen a bit of work before getting to
Newman is there?
All the best to you and yours for Xmas and a prosperous 2011.
Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Joe F (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 17:03
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 17:03
G'day Mick
I forgot to add in my previous contact that the spacers I have fitted to the Coromal are also Snake racing jobbies, but as Member Ed C (Qld) correctly states, retorque of the wheel/spacer nuts is a real consideration.
The caravan has travelled around 57,000 kms with the spacers fitted ~ but I have and I do use a good quality torque wrench to tighten the wheel/spacer nuts and so far I've not had any dramas.
I wasn't sneaking around town ;0) Just being observant.
Cheers:
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:26
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:26
No mate, that was me who was sneaking around, not you lol. Cheers.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 09:38
Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 09:38
I like the anti speed camera device on the front .... :-)
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 10:55
Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 10:55
Not just for spinifex my friend lol. They'd do me for going too slow I reckon.
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Reply By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 13:26
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 13:26
Could it be that a failure to re-tension the nuts (attaching the spacer to the axle flange) has been a contributing factor here ??
(like the Nissan Patrol 'wheelie fallee offee' syndrome;-))...........
You know, like "fit the spacer, tighten the nuts, fit the wheel, tighten the nuts, and away ya go".... ;-)
We all know (or should know) that wheel nuts need to be re-tensioned after a wheel change (and I
check 'em regularly when off-road), but with these spacers, the wheel needs to come off to do this, and maybe it wasn't done ??? (or perhaps not as 'diligently' as it could have been??).....
I see no mention of what brand / make of spacers you have there Mick, and as you say, the seating / centering would be critical....
If you're not yet ready to give up on this issue, you may wish to give these blokes a call >>>
GalPro Engineering .. Barry is the bloke to talk to;-) ..
I had some wheel studs made by them a while back, and if the quality of these is any indication, their work is of a very high standard indeed....
Catch ya later.... Ed C
:)
| Confucius say.....
"He who lie underneath automobile with tool in hand,
....Not necessarily mechanic!!"Member My Profile Send Message |
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:05
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:05
Thanks Ed. Will definitly give those blokes a call. Yes, retensioned and checked as per wheels. Spacers were Snake Racing. No concerns with the quality of the spacers themselves, just the accessory as a whole.
Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:42
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:42
Mate,
Thankyou so much for that link to Galpro. I’ve just had a conversation at length with Barry there and he is very familiar with the issues. A very knowledgeable bloke. I’ll be sending him some specs and measurements to identify options. Just as a
point of interest, his locally made hi tensile (Swedish steel) studs for the cruiser are around $9.50 (+GST) which is bloody cheaper than the replacement crap Toyota standard studs!!! Also had a look at his spacers on the net and they are a whole lot different in terms of quality and features than the one’s I’ve been using. They even have a spigot on the outer edge to ensure that the wheel seats perfectly against the spacer. Oh and he does wheels with custom offset as
well. I will keep you informed about the outcomes.
Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Ed C (QLD) - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:27
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:27
Excellent!!
A very innovative enterprise by all accounts, and it's obvious that they are very proud of their work, and rightly so....
I have no doubt that you will be
well pleased with any work you choose to have done by this mob:)
Catch ya later.... Ed
:)
| Confucius say.....
"He who lie underneath automobile with tool in hand,
....Not necessarily mechanic!!"Member My Profile Send Message |
FollowupID:
711458
Follow Up By: cycadcenter - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 14:41
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 14:41
They certainly look as though they know what they are doing. Very impressive products.
Saved that website in my favorites.
Thanks
Bruce
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:06
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 14:06
Good thread Mick,
Just a couple of considerations I haven't seen raised:
#1 wheel offset - the wheels you are running are zero offset and the spacers put them out 50mm - so the point where the vehicle is supported is now 50mm outside the axle face. Compare this to the 79series split rims and many other 4wd wheels which have up to 60mm (?neg) offset and even if you fit spacers the weight is still supported inside or close to the axle flange.
#2 With your setup, I expect you have a lot of weight on the rear axle. The sticker on the drivers door pillar usually states max weights for front and rear axles. Any idea whether you are near it? My recollection is 2600kgs for the rears.
#3 Fat vs skinny tyres - I'd expect the tracking problem to be worse with skinny tyres - the 750R16 have 160mm of tread, and the track difference is 47mm per side. A 285/75 for comparison has 230mm of tread with the same track difference, so on paper at least, fat tyres are better off.
#4 Protection of the brakes - the rear discs have leading calipers - so are easily hit with sand, mud and stones. The wheel and tyre normally protect this. By adding 50mm spacers, you lose 50mm of protection of those calipers, and you are more likely to chew out rear pads and score the discs. Some years back in SA you could buy custom made shields to protect the calipers on the 79series mining vehicles.
Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:24
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:24
As usual Phil, you raise some very good points. It hadn't occurred to me about the rim protecting the callipers. I mean you see the damn thing but don't appreciate the fact as to the protection being offered.
I've had two GVM upgrades and a secondary compliance plate fitted after the engineering. My GVM is now a shade under 4 Tonnes but I can't recall back axle and will have to get the car out of the back yard to get the door open (she's a pretty narrow drive with a quad and shopping trolley (Rav 4) in front at the present!). 3200kgs is ringing a bell but I may
well be wrong. She tipped 2120kgs on the weigh
bridge with just the tray and front pod plus a spare wheel and 90 litres of juice. I'd put the rear pod at 600kgs empty. Have got to get it onto a weigh
bridge at some stage. I'll take to Barry at Galpro about the guards as
well. Sounds like something he could make easily.
Cheers and all the very best for xmas and the new year. Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 08:12
Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 08:12
I just checked
mine and its actually 2300kg rear axle load and 1460kg front. I'd guess yours is similar if not the same. I've not seen a 79series upgraded to anything greater than 3700kg - I assumed it was because of the combined axle loads being 3760kg. So I'm guessing you've got a fair bit more than 2300kg over the rear axle which may be part of your problem. The fact that your wheels cracked too may be for the same reason - I'm guessing they were rears.
I don't think you can pin your problem down to any single factor but based n the excellent discussion here:
#1 Weight - your vehicle will always be heavy but if you can move any weight forward it will help.
#2 Spacers: on a 79series they push the wheel centre
well outside the axle face. If you get custom made rims with positive offset, you will have the exact same problem. with a leverage effect (like Rob's great bucket of water analogy above).
#3 Wheels. The aftermarket wheels are always going to be inferior. The centre holes are bigger (factory rims fit flush), and most only use 4.5-5mm steel. The 105series 16x8 Toyota factory rims are way stronger than anything aftermarket and have 6mm steel. I have a spare set of both in the shed at present - factory steel rims weigh 17kgs and speedys weigh 11.5kg - thats a lot of extra steel. The other option to use the 16x8 factory 105series alloys which are made by ROH as the ROH Impact.
Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:18
Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:18
Phil,
The Multidrive GVM upgrade (with cut and 200mm add to chasis) is greater than 3700 as standard. As to your points one and two, in total agreeance. I will be playing with a set of portaweighs in the new year to get some accurate figures with pod on and off and the pod laden and unladen. I’m already looking at shifting the spare wheels forward and using that space for something lighter.
It’s interesting that the Speedy wheels are rated at 180kgs greater than the ROH. King Wheels make a very sturdy rim for the mining industry which I’m investigating. Apparently it’s not rated for bitumen which I find odd as nearly every ute in the
Pilbara is fitted with these things and they do a lot of driving on bitumen and near as good hall roads. Custom wheels maybe be an option as far as getting something a lot more robust and closer or better than the standard rims. Everythings possible, just depends on how much money you’re prepared to spend. Alloys, weeeeelllll….you’ve seen what my trips involve so I have a reluctance. We’ve belted a bent steel rim back into shape for emergency use where as alloy,
well you know what I mean. I looked at the Impacts and they do look very solid.
Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2010 at 18:11
Saturday, Dec 25, 2010 at 18:11
Happy Xmas!
To make you feel better about your wheels, you are not alone: here is another photo from the
Pilbara:
But back to the real stuff, have a good hard look at the factory 105series 16x8 wheels before you risk the aftermarket wheels again.
Just got the micrometer out and the factory wheels in my shed are 7.9mm thick steel. The Speedys I've got are only 5.9mm thick. In addition the factory wheels are styled and have a centre hole that is made for the fully floating hubs.
They look like this:
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Reply By: sastra - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 16:50
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 16:50
It appears many here are aware that wheel spacers are illegal on road.
With the reported dramas it should also be obvious that spacers are illegal on road for a very good reason.
I would not enjoy meeting someones illegally modified fwd in a collision.
In my job I attended a very sad head-on between two fwds north of
Yanchep on Wanneroo Rd some time back with fatalities resulting.
The memory is still very clear in my mind.
Neither my workmates nor I want to attend anyone's misery caused by illegal mods.
There's already too much misery caused by careless attitudes, stupidity and inattention.
Sorry, but it's said now. Have a safe Christmas and enjoy your families.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 17:58
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 17:58
Thanks for your response.
Have a safe and happy Xmas. Mick
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Reply By: Flynnie - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 19:54
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 19:54
While on studs and such and hopefully not too far off topic. Any one know the recommended tightening torque for the wheel nuts on the 5 stud GX and GXL alloy wheels?
Workwise I have come across stories of snapped studs and it was put down to apprentices not tightening up the nuts, now I reckon it might have been over tightening. Has happened to different vehicles and trailers.
Think I will use the old torque wrench from here on.
Flynnie
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:17
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:17
Flynnie,
from an old post I wrote:
209 Nm (154ftlb)for steel and 131 Nm (96 fltlb) for alloy
I think I got that from the owners manual, but I'm not at
home at present to
check.
Cheers
phil
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Reply By: Member - RobnJane(VIC) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:07
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:07
Hi Mick,
Not a pleasant experience!!
A lot of good suggestions already noted, so just a couple of thoughts that may be of interest.
I note in your blog re the rims that you were not happy with the lack of taper in the wheel stud holes, and to me that is a real issue.
Then there has been the additional loading (the spacer/offset) introduced to the 'coupling' that the wheel nuts need to secure.
Then there is 'whatever the weight' may be, and how that may have been affected by the terrain, ie weight transfer, at the time or just prior to failure
Looking at the photo of the face of the spacer you may pick up whether there has been any movement prior to failure, as the studs all seem to have snapped, ie not 'lingering' fatigue failure
And then what torque or tension was used at initial tightening and then re-tightening the wheel nuts
A careful look at all the evidence you have could suggest that the failure may have been due to a combination of factors, and you may be able to correct that.
IE Source wheels with correct taper in stud holes, ensure all mating surfaces are clean when fitting, ensure wheels are torqued correctly, this may require an engineering review to ensure correct torque values are used etc etc. Of course if wheels are available with the required offset that would be desirable as you eliminate the issues of muliple mating surfacesetc.
Hope this is of interest.
Rgds,
Rob
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:59
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:59
Thanks Rob. Yes you’ve done some great detective and analysis work there. Very valid stuff. I’ve made a point to a few people that I reckon the spacers would be much better off with an additional feature to assist in seating and prevent them from moving. You know, two protrusions that fit into a groove on the axle as an example.
Yes the combination effect could have done it but from removing the spacer on the day, there was no movement from the wheel on the spacer. It was still tight. Movement between spacer and axle may
well have been the culprit.
Cheers and happy Xmas. Mick
FollowupID:
711446
Reply By: Member - Paul F (INT) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:35
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:35
Mick;
Had a recent issue with my 79 series ( hdt-fe though ) where I sheared 1 stud and 3 others loose fortunately found issue quite quickly and replaced all studs to be sure,
vehicle had done zero offroad before I picked it up so am thinking maybe a production issue on the studs. don't know but may be something to think about.
Cheers & Regards
Paul
AnswerID:
439545
Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:51
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 20:51
Paul I have heard a lot of things about the apparent weakness of the Toyota wheel studs. Apparently anything over 110lb/ft pressure will cause them to snap. A rattle gun will achieve this easily. I bought a torque wrench for the main purpose of ensuring I didn't over stress the wheel nuts.
I will contact the engineers in Ed C's post to enquire about custom and perhaps high tensile wheel studs and let you know how I go.
Cheers Mick
FollowupID:
711415
Follow Up By: Member - Paul F (INT) - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:20
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:20
Mick;
May sound a bit silly but a rattle gun is the norm used for pulling new studs through to position.
Also still have my sheared unit and others if anyone interested in testing them, as they are the original toyota.
Paul
FollowupID:
711438
Reply By: Member - David G (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 21:10
Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 at 21:10
Good day Mick an answer to this problem maybe in the way in which Toyota Nissan Hino etc trucks wheel studs are used to secure their dual wheel assembles and that is the inner wheel is secured on the normal stud by an over stud and the outer wheel by a wheel nut { i.m sure there will be someone out there who has access to one of these trucks and can photo an example to clarify what i am trying to explain] but the long and short of it is the spacer would be secured by the over stud and the wheel by
the nut the cost in getting this made up would be huge but maybe a bit of pressure could be brought to bear on Toyota as they have cut assay costs by using a rear axle that is already in production for previous models but a lot of people who are buying the 79 model have the problem of an all terrain vehicle that cuts two wheel tracks in soft conditions ie sand black soil etc and has a tendency to be skittish. Our Oka has the same problem but the difference is not as noticeable as the Toyota. Hope there is someone out there who knows what i,m talking about lol Merry Xmas to all
cheers Dave
AnswerID:
439546
Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:08
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 10:08
Dave, I’m getting a bit of a visual on what you’re saying. Might give you a call as it’s something I could canvas with the engineer if machining high tensile studs is an option. Have you heard of an alloy called “hi-tuff” or similar. I believe it’s used to make custom axles and pieces for high performance work (like dragsters etc). The alloy has a greater degree of flexibility in that it will allow a certain degree of twist before letting go (picture a axle sheared at the spline end after having been torqued around a bit too much). I’d been told that a CV joint made out of this stuff is virtually indestructible.
Mate all the best to you, Pauline and the family for Xmas and the New Year. Thanks for all your help and knowledge during the year. It was large part of making our GDEC expedition successful. Hope we can meet up somewhere out west on 2011.
Mick
FollowupID:
711447
Follow Up By: Member - Charlie M (SA) - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 22:30
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 22:30
Dave
What you are talking about is called a nut and thimble being the inner one
Normally in two sizes depending on vehicle size.
Cheers
Charlie
FollowupID:
711504
Follow Up By: Member - David G (WA) - Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:23
Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:23
Thanks Charlie spot on you triggered the memory box and that is what they are known as but i used to call them other names when it meant undoing 20 nuts and studs to get the inner wheel off lol.
cheers Dave
FollowupID:
711530
Reply By: Gobumpy - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 00:02
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 00:02
hi mick
It could be the coating on the spacer itself to me it looks annodised whjch is only microns thick but can flake off causing wheel nuts and spacer nuts to loosen only a suggestion as ive had to remove chrome from truck rims to stop them coming loose
Hope i make sense lol
Scott
AnswerID:
439556
Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:56
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 09:56
Makes total sense Scott and I see what you're saying. The spacers aren't coated in any way. Straight steel. Probably a patina of age, dirt and dust ground into the macining marks giving it that look.
Marry xmas to you. Mick.
FollowupID:
711443
Reply By: Member - Leigh (Vic) - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 13:41
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 13:41
Great post guys!! Just goes to demonstrate what lengths people in the know will go inorder to keep driving their troopies. The other option clearly is not attractive?? Have a great Christmas folks!
AnswerID:
439575
Reply By: Member - Michael J (SA) - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:29
Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 at 21:29
Have had no trouble with
mine over 7000km of rough travel, but I have now taken them off...
MJ
AnswerID:
439609
Reply By: Member - Chris & Debbie (QLD) - Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 13:24
Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 at 13:24
Hi Mick
You have not mentioned if you lubricate the studs or not. It is impossible to get a correct torque on any bolt that is does not have a thread lubricant applied, most probems I have seen with broken wheel studs can be attributed to this.
I cannot tell by the
pic's but do these spaces have a machined recess that correctly locates them on the axle? and do they have a machined boss to support the wheel? as by rights the wheel studs should not be supporting any weight.
Chris
AnswerID:
439848
Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:18
Friday, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:18
Thanks Chris. Nuts were lubricated. The spacers do not have and locating device at all and simply fit flat against the axle end. There is also no machined boss or spigot to support the wheel. The spacers also don't sit directly on the axle hub so it would appear that in this manufacturer’s case, the entire load is born by the wheel nuts.
FollowupID:
712171