The 4WD of the future

Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 17:53

Peter110664

I'm about to open a thread with a very contentious topic. I think we are on the verge of seeing a dramatic shift in the design of vehicles, particularly four wheel drives.

Some food for thought: Fuel prices are certainly not going down; electric vehicles will make inroads into the market in the next ten or so years; a vehicle's fuel consumption is greatly dictated by it's weight; vehicle CAD has resulted in massive improvements in performance, strength, economy and weight reduction in the conventional and some of the 4wd market.

So, with this in mind, I would like to put it out there....What could we be buying in the next decade for the big trip, a fang along the beach or a weekend in the bush ??

I'm going to make a start:

1. Weight is the single biggest design issue. If we can reduce a 4wd's weight, we improve on and off road performance, improve fuel economy, tyre wear, safety, environmental impact and maybe even accident safety. The (heavy) Troopy I used to have has been replaced by a modern crotch rocket. The frame design of my bike means I have an extremely rigid, yet lightweight box chassis. Can we apply similar design ideas to 4wd's...IE, alloy chassis, aluminium, graphite and composite bodywork and alloy drivetrain components. Remember, the lighter the vechile, the lighter the drivetrain.


2. For this new lightweight vehicle, we need an engine which is powerful, torquey, reliable and with a low centre of gravity. A boxer engine would be good, although we will definitely be seeing electric motors once battery performance is improved, (Even better weight distribution, as batteries can be slung along the floor pan. In the meantime, a flat 4 or 6 turbo diesel with all the new european common rail technology would do.

3. Off road performance - My troopy could go almost anywhere - leaf springs all round, solid axles and a ladder chassis meant it was bulletproof but jesus it was slow, weighed a ton and was scarily top heavy. How about coil springs with long travel, electronically controlled for maximum traction. Combine this suspension with clearance sensors around the body of the vehicle, to ensure the body doesn't bottom out.

I realise there may be some issues with using our new lightweight 4wd for towing. maybe caravan / camper design will follow with lighter designs ??

Let the discussion begin, unless the moderators label me a nutbag and kill the thread off instantly..
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AnswerID: 442043   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 18:41

Nic I replied:

Even better, just have a small efficient turbo-diesel engine charging batteries which in turn would power an electric motor at each wheel.

Weight savings, although somewhat offset by the weight of the batteries, would be significant - no big engine, gearbox, xfer case, driveshafts, diffs, or (probably) brakes - probably 500kg or more.

And then less fuel (weight and space) to carry, with the option of solar panels helping charge the batteries.

Too soon yet, because the batteries aren't ready yet (and neither are we, being the rather old-fashioned folk that most 4wd'ers are), but perhaps in 10-15 years.




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FollowupID: 714149   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 19:25

den57 posted:

And without the weight of the fourwheeler how do i hold the caravan on the road. Bearing in mind some of us are towing vans over 3 tonn.
Den and Col
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FollowupID: 714151   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 20:11

Member - MUZBRY(Vic) posted:

Good evening den
Caravans will be made of the same product as the vehicle . Titanium and carbon fibre , aluminium and other new products not yet available. Your food cans will be made of light weight composites .
One must think outside the circle these days.
Muzbry
A night spent on Mt Blue Rag ,after the first Chivas .27.12.2012.
Lifetime Member: My Profile  Send Message
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FollowupID: 714156   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 20:50

Peter110664 posted:

Like your thinking Nic. I work in an industry which markets PLC's (basically industrial computers) for everything from controlling roto moulding plastic to building cars with robots. Imagine the traction and flexibility of a 4wd with seperate drive speed to each wheel, ride height, wheel articulation and suspension stiffness controlled by a PLC, depending on user settings, speed and terrain. The technology is out there now. We should getr Steve Jobbs onto it. How about the " i-cruiser "
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FollowupID: 714174   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 00:19

OzTroopy posted:

Hydraulic rather than electric imho ...... theres nothing eco friendly about production and disposal of batteries.


Decreased van & tow vehicle weights but maintain the dimensions ?????

.......... wind gusts anybody ????

Theres enough plastic being blown around in table drains as it is.


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FollowupID: 714197   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 13:43

Mudripper posted:

"Like your thinking Nic. I work in an industry which markets PLC's (basically industrial computers) for everything from controlling roto moulding plastic to building cars with robots. Imagine the traction and flexibility of a 4wd with seperate drive speed to each wheel, ride height, wheel articulation and suspension stiffness controlled by a PLC, depending on user settings, speed and terrain. The technology is out there now. We should getr Steve Jobbs onto it. How about the " i-cruiser "

Oh boy, with the problems we are already having with on-board computers in present vehicles, I can imagine what's going to happen next...

Just when you're making a steep climb, you get a message, "An error has occurred, please try again later." Then you'll have to reinstall the car?



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AnswerID: 442046   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 20:12

Member - Jack replied:

I was listening to a couple of car 'gurus' (I hate that term) discussing hybrid and electric vehicles and they all seemed to agree that the future was in small turbo diesel vehicles.

I have a T/D Diesel Astra that returns better fuel efficiency than the Prius. Highway and freeway driving gives me 4.8-4.9 litres per 100km against the Prius, which is about 5.4 from memory.

And bio diesel is sustainable.

Jack
Birds of a feather flock together . .
And then crap on your car
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FollowupID: 714172   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 23:47

adoyle posted:

Jack

The thermal efficiency of a diesel engine is around 22% and I belive this has gotten better in the past few years. Compared to a petrol engine, at around 7-11% thermal efficiency, it's a no brainer.
The amount of energy and materials required to manufacture the batteries in Hybrid vehicles is phenomonal. Just image the waste treatment, PPE required, shippment, raw naterials required etc.I think we need to have a short break and really study what it is that we have to do... not jump just for the sake of it.
Love your thoughts on this, AD
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FollowupID: 714201   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 14:20

Mr Pointyhead posted:

I drove a rental Hybrid Camery from Melbourne to Ballarat a couple of months ago. This is a 110 Km/Hr speed limit freeway and it is uphill most of the way. I set the cruise control for 110 KM/Hr for the trip.

When I filled the car up in Ballarat prior to returning it, my fuel consumption came in at 12 l/100 Km. My TDi HZJ105 uses 14 l/100 k for the same trip.

Of course I suspect for the return downhill trip the camery would use next to nothing while the 'cruiser still uses about 14 l/100 k.

However it did highlight to me that while Hybrids are great city cars, the current generation of them leave a lot to be desired on country roads.



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FollowupID: 714230   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 20:04

gbc posted:

Interestingly a doco I was watching about mercedes benz had one of their engineers stating that diesel will be done with in the next 7 years in europe. Mercedes are not spending any more on diesel development.
He went on to show the 'next gen' petrol motor - it's a combination of spark plug and high compression (ala diesel) combustion.

Who knows where the future will take us?
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FollowupID: 714550   Submitted: Thursday, Jan 20, 2011 at 22:01

adoyle posted:

I just want to perhaps correct something that I think may have been misunderstood from my last post.

I'm not referring to fuel efficiency i.e km/100km of miles/gallon. What I am talking about, which is heavily in support of diesel engines, is thermal efficiency, which in simple terms is how much bang do you get for your buck.

In this, the efficiency is a percentage of what output in power you get in comparison to the imput (fuel) you have. Say for instance you get 30% thermal efficiency, then essentially, out of the $10 of fuel you put in the tank, only $3 helped you get where you want to go, and the remaining $7 went in heat, exhaust gases, mechanical force, unrelated energy (driving alternators, compressors etc) and other areas.

Back to the original post though, I guess we can power the 4WD vehicle with whatever we want engine wise, but at the end of the day, If we want it to be lighter but still with the structural integrity we had with our older vehicles, how affordable will it be?

Have fun with it, AD
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AnswerID: 442050   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 21:01

Axle replied:

Landrover have had this sort of development in place for 50yrs!!,,,,LOL.


Cheers Axle'
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FollowupID: 714171   Submitted: Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 at 23:38

adoyle posted:

Axle
They may have but my question is to what advantage?
Minus the non required item to make a vehicle a vehicle, what have they improved on? Composite materials have been in the industry for many years - more years than I've been alive.
Have fun with this one though.
Regards AD
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FollowupID: 714195   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 13:02

Fab72 posted:

Funny....Axle as a screen name spruking the development of Landrovers, yet from my years as a mechanic, it's the Axles which are the weakest link on any Landrover.
Size doesn't always matter. Patience and planning does.
1999 5Dr Pajero io
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FollowupID: 714199   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 13:51

ob posted:

Yep you are right Axle, Landrover have had all the developement in place for 50 yrs and are still doing it................LOL

ob
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AnswerID: 442065   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 00:19

Member - Phil B (WA) replied:

How far into the future are we talking – 10, 20 or 50 years?

Maybe some of you will think me a nutter but I'll throw something different into the mix. We're all assuming fossil fuel, electric motors, shock absorbers, tyres and so on. What about the Jetsons type technology with plasma motors and anti gravity devices – it may not be as far off as we think.

They've already got 'magnetic' trains travelling at colossal speeds.

I think our main stumbling block in moves to alternative propulsion technologies is the power and control of the fossil fuel companies eg Bp Shell etc


Phil B

The quickest way to double your money is to fold it and put it back into your pocket.
Lifetime Member: My Profile  Send Message
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FollowupID: 714175   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 00:31

mikehzz posted:

It would be fabulous to reach Jetsons capability. Unfortunately I feel closer to Flintstones capability...
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AnswerID: 442068   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 00:37

OzTroopy replied:

I dont see anything contentious about looking at changing vehicle designs.

Changes are happening all the time ... some of its great, some of its good, somes so so .... and some of it is just plain lunacy.

What is a bit contentious is someone now sitting on a motorbike complaining about the weight, size and fuel consumption of a troopy.

..... and no ... Im not ant-bike ..... coz I had a bike ... and a troopy ... for use relevant to needs .... until escalating govt & insurance motorcycle costs made my token little save the planet gesture too prohibitive, dollar wise.
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FollowupID: 714217   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 18:08

Peter110664 posted:

I think the bike uses almost as much fuel but it's considerably faster. LOL. It is up for sale for similar reasons as yourself.

We used a 6cl Diesel leaf sprung Troopy for 6 months towing a camper around OZ. It was a great vehicle but if I did the trip again, I would select something much lighter and a bit more comfortable. A major point I'm trying to discuss here is why 4wd design doesn't seem to give a hoot about vehicle weight ??? This goes for 4wd accessories also. Man, the all up weight of a fully kitted troopy, patrol or cruiser is phenomenal. I do accept the towing issue as a valid argument, but not all 4wd sales are to tow a 2 ton caravan around. There is a definite market for a strong, but lighter 4wd, which has got to handle better and save money in fuel and tyres. The 2wd market does everything possible to keep weight down.
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FollowupID: 714236   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:34

OzTroopy posted:

Theres been light weight 4wds available on the aust market for decades .... and there still is.

One doesnt have to brandish a troopy down the highway to ascend to the overglorified ranks of 4wd ownership.
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FollowupID: 714307   Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 18, 2011 at 19:46

Peter110664 posted:

You're a passionate Troopy owner operator and i respect that. I loved my truck too. I'm really trying to get us all thinking about future directions in 4WD's. I'm worried there are a heap of all wheel drive sedans on the market that wouldn't make it up a slippery driveway. And I still think the current offer of 'real' 4wd's could do with a bit of design work to reduce weight and increase performance. .. Cheers Pete
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FollowupID: 714353   Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 18, 2011 at 22:42

OzTroopy posted:

passionate about a troopy .... heh heh

I was when I had I had a use for one ... now I just remember the troopy fondly because its big lazy engine and reasonably heavy duty drivetrain/build quality let me do all things I wanted with it.

Ive been passionate about every 4wd Ive owned ... coz I always buy the best vehicle suited to the task at hand.

Over the years ... model sizes ranged from a 2stroke suzuki .... theres a lightweight for you ........ through to the troopy which regularly carried 2 families and all their junk for 4-6wk excursions, proving to be a real planet saver .... by negating the need to be running two vehicles and halving emissions and fuel use ... LOL

Now of course, govt legislation supports excessive fuel use and emissions by multiple vehicle use ........ since its not "safe" to carry 8 people and gear in a 13 seater troopy .... pfttttt


My point is .....

There are different classes of 4wd. The aust govt may be dumb enough to class them ALL as offroad passenger vehicles ......... but theres a big difference between an awd station wagon with a load of handbags and lattees .... and a 70series or similiar, loaded up for a 20,000klm 3yr trip around the block.

Techno advances in materials, engine sizes, and so forth - should be applied according to the vehicle class .......... not as blanket ruling on all ...

Some stuff needs to be big and solid ... as the last thing I would want is my alloy chassis, photon plasma charge propelled, bling rocket with obligatory 4x4 stickers on the guards .... sitting in the middle of a corrugated gravel road in pieces coz alloy does what alloy does ..... fatigues and cracks .....

And just to show Im not that much of a dinosaur .... For a quick 4wd trip with just the cattle dog, a thermos of coffee and a packet of smokes .... Id go for something like this which encompasses many features you are advocating -->

hi tech bling.
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AnswerID: 442073   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 08:01

Robin Miller replied:

Hi Peter

I don't think things will change fundamentally , just the usual slow evoluntionary change which will be driven by cost not performance.

We have now gone thru several periods scare driven change like oil shocks etc and the end result is that our cars are now heavier , with more features and as a general rule, less real 4wd performance, and ,ore breakable.

The market moves in interesting ways essentially cost driven , as the mainline wagons became more expensive , the big shift has been towards dual cab type utes, with less 4wd performance via mostly poor articulation leaf springs , generally smaller size diffs etc as they get tuned to the lowest common denominator the market will except.
Robin Miller
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FollowupID: 714181   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 08:42

Dennis Ellery posted:

Not Togos V8 diesels mate – now there’s real grunt, with good fuel economy.
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FollowupID: 714183   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 09:22

Robin Miller posted:

Yep thats the exception all right Dennis , with good performance as well - pity about the price.
Robin Miller
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FollowupID: 714184   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 09:53

Dennis Ellery posted:

Robin are you sick?
You said something nice about Toyota.
I think you should go and have a little lay down.
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AnswerID: 442076   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 09:04

Ray replied:

If any body comes up with a revolutionary power sauce for vehicles the oil companies would buy the patent and that would be the last you would hear of it.
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FollowupID: 714182   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 09:13

Member - Matt M posted:

HP - Now there's a good power sauce!
Life's a beach....
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FollowupID: 714186   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:39

Member - Oldbaz. NSW. posted:

Ha Ha Ha Ha...well done , both of you, thats damn funny.......oldbaz.
oldbaz
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FollowupID: 714229   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 19:59

Member - Royce posted:

Ah... the source is the sauce!
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AnswerID: 442093   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 13:36

Mudripper replied:

I think the automotive industry should turn to gas (i.e. methane). The amount that I produce would power a semi for about 12 months. The problem would be somehow capturing (bottling) the emissions.

And if you're heading in to the outback, no need to worry about long range tanks, etc. Just take a modest supply of backed beans, cauliflower, cabbage, eggs, Polish kransky and milk to wash it down. Then your body will do the rest...

If the Japs are harvesting methane from sewage treatment plants and using it to cook with, can't see why it wouldn't work in a car.

Hmmmm....
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AnswerID: 442095   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 14:03

Ruffy-Dan replied:

As much as we'd like to think otherwise, we are a minority group and will always be treated as such by manufacturers.
The future is not in capable 4wds but rather a 4wd that is as capable as a 2wd sedan on road. Society, as a majority, demands that they can go and purchase a 4wd that will carry their family, safely, reliably and economically to any gazetted destination without training or research but then transport the wife and children safely, reliably and economically to school/shops etc.
That's the market. IFS will take you across the simspon and to the cape. Why do you need 12 inches of travel?
Unfortunately we (As a race) have made the government, manufacturers, suppliers and regulators make these decisions by what we have demanded.
Fuel type will never be an issue. The large oil companies can tell us exactly when we will run out of oil and until then they will keep selling it to us.
After that they will allow change to the next fuel they see fit. Potentially hydrogen.

DAN
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AnswerID: 442097   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 14:26

Mr Pointyhead replied:

Electric Jeep Wrangler:

http://www.jpmagazine.com/featuredvehicles/154_0901_jeep_wrangler_ev/index.html


and




and

http://jalopnik.com/5053639/jeep-ev-rock-crawling-the-electric-way

Add a small TDi to keep things charged when away from powerpoints and you have a intresteing concept of a vehicle
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AnswerID: 442129   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 19:02

Member - barry F (NSW) replied:

Why bother mucking around with light weight composite materials & super efficient diesel motors?

Captain Kirk of Star Trek fame simply got Scotty to Beam him & his crew to places he wanted to visit. Easy Peasy & the technology to do likewise is maybe already at hand?

Wouldnt be much fun & you would miss the sights in between, but super efficient LOL.
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AnswerID: 442135   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 20:02

Member - Royce replied:

In ten years time?

Fuel will be very expensive.

If wages rise .... it will cover the money to head off bush.

If diesel gets too expensive..... then the brown coal that is so hated [by some] as a source of fuel for power generation will be used to make diesel. I have a feeling that not much will change in 10 years ..... 30 years. yup.. Thumbs UpThanks 0
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AnswerID: 442144   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 21:37

Eric Experience replied:

Peter.
The vehicle you describe has been available for about 10 years. 1750kg weight, enough room to comfortably live and sleep 2 peoples Very good off road ability better than 10L/100k and very fast. Its called a Mercedes Sprinter 4x4. Eric.
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AnswerID: 442147   Submitted: Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 22:06

Member - Doug T (NT) replied:

My feeling is there will always be a commercial type 4x4 , like the tray-backs/Pickups, I can't see your shopping type 4x4 running around mine sites etc.

.
My sadly Missed Mate
Dusty, 8/6/1996 - 20/1/2010
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AnswerID: 442636   Submitted: Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 at 01:55

SDG replied:

Over the christmas holidays my nine year old has been designing a car that he wants when he gets older.
He want a Ferarri, but he also wants a 4wd.

So far he has got a Ferarri sitting on a 4wd chassis. When I told him about aerodynamics, he has come up with the idea of adjustable springs/shocks. On the road the vehicle will sit low, as a sport car should, thus helping with aerodynamics, which in turn should help with fuel economy, and off road the clearance will be raised for clearance.
For some reason the vehicle Has to have gull wing doors. Could be interesting trying to open those in the bush.

A lot of people have designed and built sportcars in their back yard. Why not try and design a fourby?
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