Driver Training - Car + <span class="highlight">Caravan</span>

Baz,

I've had a HR licence for 35 years (driving as a youngster) but have never once been asked to show it while towing a caravan or boat.

The existing rules around RV weights etc are seldom policed so adding another law that also isn't policed may not be effective.

I'd rather see those rigs that are very obviously overloaded or unroadworthy taken off the road.

At least your post will energise the forum for a while.

Skull

Nooooooooo

I agree with you Baz,

As a retired heavy vehicle driver I think there should be some type of competency test. I live on the Mid Nth Coast NSW and the amount of caravans that go A over T up here every year is unbelievable.

Cheers Dave

Hi Baz

Good post but can see one very big hurdle........

It would have to be implemented in very state and that is one thing that would be very hard to get through.

Driver education should be the most important thing and drivers need to be aware on their limits.

Things need to change for sure, but to make this a Federal issue, will need the backing from every state...could you see that happening?

One issue that has not shown its head here on the forum is overseas drivers.

Here in South Australia, it was mentioned on the TV that this year alone, 17 people from overseas have already died on SA roads, the biggest cause, driving on the wrong side of the road, not knowing our a Road Rules and in cases of split timing, pulling over to the right hand side of the road. Not sure how other state fair, but I would say it would be even greater over in the eastern states..


Just my thoughts.


Cheers


Stephen

Baz,

While I'd support some sort of license, or a blitz on poorly matched tug/van units, feel it is too late. Maybe 10 years ago, a push for this might have come about, but these days "they" are flat out having enough finance to police anything.

What happens now is a "cycle of life". Ol' mate retires, buys a van and a new ute, loads Mum onboard, and off they go, into the outback, or where ever. Gets in a situation, rolls van, tug or both, and they are written off. Assessor checks on it, or reviews photos, someone gets paid to clean up the mess, RACQ puts them up for a few nights in a motel, then they return home, to sort out what to do next. Suggest it all keeps the economy going, though probably doesn't do much for insurance premiums for those of us that don't, or rarely claim?

I've done a lot of kms over the past 7-8 years out in western Qld, and it's a very common occurrence, the demise of someone's pride and joy. And almost always on a straight stretch of road?

Bob

Baz

I think some sort of upgraded licence to tow a caravan would be a great idea.


I often drive past a large disused car park at Ourimbah , where a local caravan company does a some basic driving training ,I parked there last week and watched a bloke trying to teach a new van owner how to reverse his new purchase , Funny to say the least ,there was a lot of head scratching.

But as You mentioned someone also has to look at all these mid size automatic 4x4 towing large caravans,.

Some would have little Knowledge of the weight they are towing and most would be overloaded .

Cheers

I have held HR and R Queensland licence for 50 years and, until retirement, Dangerous Goods. Licenced.....yes, competent.....not likely! There is no way I'm getting on a motorbike again, let alone unrestricted engine size. I'd be hesitant to drive a heavy rigid on the highway. The more I check and recheck the weights of my Prado and Golf 14ft van, the more I am disinclined to upgrade. I've just fitted a TPMS from Dig Options and wonder how many roll overs these could have prevented over the years.

There are nationally recognised "Tow Ed" courses for caravans, trailers and camper trailers, Australia wide.

The courses may be a work requirement, or in the recreational field, some people recognise that they do not having sufficient skills to tow or drive a 4WD off road and attend these courses.

Insurance companies recognise the certification and some offer discounted policies.

So all the ground work is already in place to obtain the skill sets required.

Recreational - MSMRVG201 - Tow a recreational vehicle safely
Off road - FWPFGM3214 Operate a four wheel drive in a towing situation.
5th Wheeler training

There are also 4WD courses that suit Recreational drivers SISODRV302A
The skills industry requirements for the Resource Industries, Forestry and NPWS. RIIVEH305E and PMASUP236

These certified courses are often a work requirement for mines for Drillers, Geologist, Surveyors and many others.

Hi Baz. A licence with written and practical testing has not prevented the numerous car crashes, and additional paperwork would do nothing to prevent crashes. Caravans are under represented in accident statistics, so are not the best target to reduce road fatalities and trauma.

While we do not know the facts about the recent runaway trailer fatality, it does on the face of it appear to have been an illegal towing configuration. All the licences and paperwork in the world will not drop the person determined to do the wrong thing. It only inconveniences those who do it right.

Regardles of all the other issues and there are many, it is plainly rediculous that you need a higher level licence to drive single vehicle over 4.5 tonnes, but you can drive a 9 tonne combination on a passenger car licence.

cheers

I reluctantly agree that an endorsement on a normal driving licence to tow anything would be a good move. The last thing I want is more rgualtion, but this is a safety issue and is thus justified.

Regarding reversing caravans, I have been reversing tractor/trailer, car/trailer and even semitrailers since I was 9 years old, so I have a reasonable idea of what to do. However, I still need another person to watch the rear of the van. My friend is super at this - he tells me when to start the turn, when to chase it and when to straighten up. He knows - he has done it many times, as I have with him. My wife is worse than hopeless. Many times, I have tried to get her to anticipate when to start & straighten etc, but it never works. " Straighten up.... Stop - you have gone too far". "You are too far to the left!" Her left or my left? She gets L and R mixed up when going straight ahead, so when reversing....I have lost count of how many times I wished she wasn't there. I have offered to teach her to reverse, but no way... At least when I am coupling up, I just ignore her and do it my way.

Maybe a driver traing course could teach her how to guide the caravan in? It is an endless source of amusement watching others struggle with this.

The problem is that we need an actual Australia wide licensing and vehicle registration system not just state based, it is absolutely ridiculous that a vehicle deemed perfectly safe in 1 state is deemed unroadworthy in another , the thing with licences is that once you have it you are not retested so your competency is in question , having gone through the the joy [ not ] of my young fella getting his licence last year shows how much road rules and laws have changed over the years , my belief is that not only do we need a licence for towing a van but also graduated on the size of the van with ALL licences needing retesting every 5 years to ensure competency is maintained , yes it will cost $$ but road frustration will decrease and safety will increase.

Baz, I know where you are coming from but here is the but.

Most of us get a licence at an early age and I had my HC at the grand old age of 19. Hell that was a long time ago.
In all the years since, except for upgrades in licence classes, I have never had to know the current road rules except for the ones aimed at the new class. It maybe better for us to focus on keeping up with the changes in rules than concerning ourselves with the cost of endorsements.

I learnt by the seat of my pants, today all people have to do is go on line and there will be plenty of instructional videos to help them with any problems or understanding the basic principles of a particular class of vehicle.

I know that what ever we do, whether it is an endorsement on a licence or driver training, you won't change the attitude of the particular person behind the wheel.
Now you have an MR licence, get one, load it up to gross and go for a big drive. Then your eyes will be opened to some of the aspects of driver behaviour. The longer the vehicle the more the following drivers can scare your pants off even if you are travelling at any of the posted speed.
I personally don't see the need for another cost for the motorist.

In my travels in the last couple of weeks and those travels are more for mates rates (bugger)than I want to, I can list the things that have happened me from other drivers and that includes my counter parts in heavy vehicles.

No problems with caravans except for a few slow ones, the worst offender was a late model camper van. Guess patience is one of my virtues. I think.

Have all the rules and tests that you can think of.

Then along comes the brigade that you share the road with that have never had a licence, or have had it cancelled but drive regardless.

As for stating that many can't reverse, so what? All that causes is possibly embarrassment, hardly the reason for a roll-over though?

We all complain about the 'nanny state' mentality, but some of us want to dream up even more reasons to make life a complicated drama. No wonder many people give up on trying to comply.

Paul

The Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) recently released data that indicates caravan registrations have increased by approximately 5% over the past 12 months.

What is good news for Australia is that the growth in the caravan and motor home industry in Australia has boosted production to its highest level in the past 30+ years, bucking the trend on manufacturing in Australia.

I suspect an aging population with more people heading into retirement, low interest rates, and a high propensity to spend the equity that is held in home ownership has helped this trend…

I guess the flipside to this growth is that the increasing number of caravans and RV’s on the road, potentially (potentially) driven by drivers without experience in handling large rigs.

So can I pose the question, are those new to caravanning provided with, and encouraged to undertake training to ensure competency? The answer is probably somewhere between those that will seek out training and those that won’t – at least by mandating something we will get some consistency. Essentially, if it is a requirement, most people will do it, if it isn’t the risk is that people won’t…

And whilst there are many arguments both for and against, I suspect the group that will eventually drive changes to either licencing or some competency based assessment will be the insurance companies. Eventually they will tweak to the fact that there is a gap in the licencing requirements in Australia that allows someone to drive a large vehicle and caravan set-up without necessarily needing to demonstrate they can do so competently.

Out of interest, the UK already requires drivers to pass a car and trailer driving test if you want to be behind the wheel of a vehicle towing a trailer where the combined weight is in excess of 3,500kg. The rules, when introduced, allowed those with licences issued before January 1997 to be grandfathered into the new arrangements – that is you do not need to undertake the test and you can potentially drive a combined weight up to 8,250kg.

Is that a model that could be adopted here?

And yes, that is the UK, not Australia…but, it will possibly makes its way on to an insurance company agenda eventually.

One Australian insurance company has already made the following observations…

“Lost control’ accounts for 91% of the rollovers and in all of these cases, the van began to fishtail and the driver wasn’t able to bring it back under control. This may indicate that some vans are not set up correctly with stabiliser bars. In a number of cases it appears the driver has panicked when the van began to sway and immediately applied the brakes rather than trying to accelerate out of the problem.

Driver education would go a long way to reducing the number of ‘rollovers’ and ‘lost control’ accidents and should include things such as”

Recommended towing speed
What to do if van begins to sway
How to set up a van correctly for towing
Ensuring that owner has a vehicle suitable for towing van”

It also had the following claim statistics to June 2013.

Caravan claim numbers

Total caravan claims reported: 14,000
The average age of driver is 63 years old

Most common claim types

Storm/Hail/Flood: 29%
Collision with stationary object: 24%
Accidental Damage: 10%

Rollover claims

135 rollover claims for the year
80% classified as a total loss

Causes of rollover accidents

Lost control on highway 30%
Wind caught van and lost control 14%
Hit gravel/verge and lost control 10%
Overtook third party and lost control 10%
Lost control on dirt/gravel road 8%
Wheel fell off caravan/car 6%
Lost control in rain 6%
Overtaken by third party & lost control 4%
Tyre blowout on caravan/car 4%
Van came off tow ball 4%
Mechanical failure 2%
Swerved to miss animal 2%

As I indicated in an earlier response, statistics can reveal anything you truly want them to, but ultimately, one needs to ask the question, with 5% annual growth in the industry there is a high risk that accidents involving caravans will also increase – statistics are a lagging indicator in that it will take time for this to be revealed…

I am a firm believer in not accepting the status quo, but questioning is what we are doing today still appropriate for the times we now live in – perhaps it is, or maybe it isn’t.

Thanks to those who shared their thoughts and observations and to my mind this won’t be the last time this issue will be discussed.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy

Hey Baz
The time is coming and so it should, I just purchased a second hand 23 ft caravan 3.5 ton atm towed by silverado 4.5 ton GVM with total GCWR 9.8 ton now my wife can drive this combination but she can't drive a truck over 4.5 ton !Hello
When I rang to get insurance quote I asked if I get a discount because I have a road train licence and was told no dosent account for anything
Jeff

probably start a war here but speak to any long distance truck driver and they will say articulated vehicle so needs a articulated licence to drive one.

easter 2 years ago i went upto coalseam reserve (out of wildflower season) and had a 5th wheeler as my neighbor had the exchange pleasantries and i causally asked what licence was required to tow it as a 5th wheeler.

I was kind of shocked that he only needed a normal car licence (upto 4495) as it was below weight even though it was "articulated" this particular chap was actually a truck driver who towed m/c so is used to it but also explained that 5th wheeler was also alot stable than the typcial 50mm ball or off road connection as weight sits above axle not behind.

And yes as a west aussie I am aware of incident that occurred 4wd of soem description towing a 5th wheeler and trailer hooked up behind so making it m/c status

Baz, I have a couple of questions about how you would gain the competence by doing a driving course, if you were never put through what really happens in a real life situations, such as what is shown below.

Wind caught van and lost control 14%
Hit gravel/verge and lost control 10%
Overtook third party and lost control 10%
Lost control on dirt/gravel road 8%
Wheel fell off caravan/car 6%
Lost control in rain 6%
Overtaken by third party & lost control 4%
Tyre blowout on caravan/car 4%
Van came off tow ball 4%
Mechanical failure 2%
Swerved to miss animal 2%

I am almost positive that an instructor would not allow to get into any of the above intentionally, and unless you actually experience any of the above, how can you get to be deemed competent.

All the 'B' Double and road train drivers on this site may be able to correct me here, but if a young fella is going to get a road train/'B' double licence, he is not put in the rig and told to have a practice run and get it right. I would think he would have an experienced driver sitting beside him for a period of time teaching him the fundamentals of the beast. He would then go and get tested/passed and once again not let out on the road by himself until some one deemed him competent to handle the rig.

Now a lot of comments arise about reversing a van and I realise that a lot of people might not get it right every time when reversing a trailer/caravan, myself included.

But the way I look at some of the comments on the subject of reversing make me wonder, can reversing "poorly" can make you such a bad driver going "forward".

I have been around Australia 3 times, and numerous short trips.
The first time towing a camper trailer roughly 35,000k's
After this I towed a small caravan around 27,000k's and backed it roughly "150 metres".
I have just towed a 19'6" van 22,000 k's and covered some out of the way tracks and roads, but I would say I have only reversed it roughly the same distance.

In this time I have not had any altercations, frights, scary moments or anything else happen to me going forward, but I have gone the wrong way backing up more than I care to admit.

Now does this mean I am an incompetent driver to tow a van?

I think courses on how to do things are good, great in fact.
It will give you some understanding and insight on how things should be done, but in reality on the day that it happens, things don't always go the way the instructor told you it would.

There would be not one of us that drive a vehicle now were "experts" (some may have been) the day we got our licience, we all learnt what we know today through hands on experience.

I totally agree that some of these larger vans and light/smaller tugs should be looked at, as some of them look scary coming towards you, but some people just don't know or can't be told.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Cheers.