HF RADIO purchase advice

He wants a real radio ;-))

John

Yes, I only got the Barret. But have a real car in a Cruiser. :)

I have just been checking it out as we ready to head of again soon.


VKS Romeo 3454 ( selcall 3454)

Norm

Jeez! But these radios are overpriced. One of the problems when manufacturers have a captive market.

At those prices I'd be seriously looking at a satphone or, better still, obtain an Amateur Radio licence and buy lots more radio for lots less cash.

Amateur Radio in Oz

Mike Harding

I agree they are pricey, but as Australia are world leaders in HF communications, you are only getting what you pay for. My personal view is that I would rather have a set that doesn't mind being bounced around on rough tracks for weeks on end( i.e. Milspec). I just don't think that amateur equipment is designed to cater for the rough treatment that is dished out in a outback 4WD.

BTW, VKS-737 do not permit the use of amateur equipment on their frequencies.

>but as Australia are world leaders in HF communications

Really!? Those of us who have worked in the electronics design field for some years will be surprised to hear that. HF design is not exactly rocket science - it's been around for a while. Check out the Pactor 3 modems - don't think they were designed in Oz.

>I just don't think that amateur equipment is designed to cater
>for the rough treatment that is dished out in a outback 4WD.

Is that simply your assumption or do you have any test results upon which to base it? The major multinationals don't spend millions of dollars designing a (semi) mass product only to have it fail after a bit of vibration. When my 857D was one week old I managed to drop it from 4' onto a stone tiled floor :( Two years later it's still working fine.

>BTW, VKS-737 do not permit the use of amateur equipment on
>their frequencies.

VKS737 have no say on what is permitted to be used on their allocated frequencies - that decision is made by the ACMA who require "Type Approval" for transmitters which operate under the Class Licence applied to the VKS737 frequencies. That type approval is entirely based upon AS4770:2000 and requires very little different in the transmitter design than modern Amateur sets provide - the restriction to tune across frequencies rather than select by channel is the major one - it appears that the ACMA does not trust "Land Mobile" users to do this correctly.

There is nothing wrong with Barrett or Codan radios, they are well designed quality products but I _seriously_ question if they are worth three or four or five! times the price of a Yaesu FT875D or Icom 706 Mk2G.

You don't _always_ get what you pay for - sometimes you pay for more than you get.

Mike Harding

PS. You may be surprised how many people (just in my experience) are using Amateur sets on VKS737 - and there is no good technical reason why they should not.

"VKS737 have no say on what is permitted to be used on their allocated frequencies - that decision is made by the ACMA who require "Type Approval" for transmitters which operate under the Class Licence applied to the VKS737 frequencies. That type approval is entirely based upon AS4770:2000 and requires very little different in the transmitter design than modern Amateur sets provide - the restriction to tune across frequencies rather than select by channel is the major one - it appears that the ACMA does not trust "Land Mobile" users to do this correctly."

Check out the conditions of use, top of page 2

Conditions of use of VKS737 network

As for the other stuff, I did say it was my personal opinion (sound of fishing reel winding in) :-)

>Check out the conditions of use, top of page 2

I did and it makes no difference. What are you trying to say...?

Mike Harding

In keeping with the conditions of use as published by the VKS737 network, the use of amateur equipment on the VKS737 frequencies is prohibited.

As VKS737 is the licencee, and subscribers are only authorised to use the VKS737 frequencies, subject to users complying with the VKS737 Conditions of use.

What VKS737 are saying is that if a subscriber is found to be using amateur equipment on the VKS737 frequencies,(except in the case of a genuine emergency) their authority to use the frequencies will be cancelled immediately.

"Really!? Those of us who have worked in the electronics design field for some years will be surprised to hear that."

Come on Mike, give us your resume with HF RF comms.
Just how many reasonably high powered HF transmitters have you designed? Or even built? Or even serviced?

"When my 857D was one week old I managed to drop it from 4' onto a stone tiled floor :( Two years later it's still working fine.)...

and this equates to mil spec standards for vibration and dust ingress etc does it ?

"The major multinationals don't spend millions of dollars designing a (semi) mass product only to have it fail after a bit of vibration."

Err,,,WHAT major multinationals, HAM radio manufacturers? A BIT of vibration eh ? Ho ho ho. People who manufacture radios to a price and not a standard?
People whose idea of service is to get you to return the radio to Japan?
How many TS520's are still around, except as boat anchors? Early model Barrett and Codans are still in use on many cattle stations every day.

"requires very little different in the transmitter design than modern Amateur sets provide"
Oh really ? Perhaps it's that "very little in transmitter design" that makes the difference?
Ever seen the output of both side by side on spec analyzers as you wind the supply voltage down?
Ever tried the selcall function of a modern amateur set? You will need it in an emergency by the way.
Ever found one off channel?
How many actually come with a high stab oscillator as standard ?
Ever had the knobs disintegrate?
What about the connectors ?
What about the SWR protection circuitry? In some cases it's not great, is it? How many finals have you replaced from components that are under rated because they're cheaper?
How about inadequate heat sinking in high temperatures, what happens if that cheap fan fails?
How much water and dust does the case design actually keep out?
How well does the case (or anything else) last in a hostile environment?

Still dazzled by all that radio that you can get for so much less?

Then why isn't the Icom FC 7000 being bought by commercial, Govt, NGO's and the UN organizations ? It's type approved. And so much cheaper.

Amateur radio auto tunes...you can't be serious! Go and drown one a few times, whack it with a few branches, bounce it up and down in the heat and dust or perhaps salt air at 80% humidity, then do it every day and make it last 15 years.

And as for ham radios being used on commercial frequencies, how would you like it if it were the other way around ?
Happy to see everyone talk where and when they like, especially on the largely unused (many times) portions of the amateur bands are you ? I mean if everyone bought ham radios instead of commercial ones then we'd all be talking over the top of you.
It's called spectrum anarchy, isn't it ?

Why bring Pactor 3 modems into the discussion at all ?
Pactor has been targeted by Amateurs as not "spectrum friendly" as used by automatic stations and by excessive bandwidth use in the case of Pactor III.
AND they are a ripoff in your terms, $1000 each !
Far better to stick with SCAMP for casual comms.

>What VKS737 are saying is that if a subscriber is found
>to be using amateur equipment on the VKS737 frequencies,
>except in the case of a genuine emergency) their authority
>to use the frequencies will be cancelled immediately.

Simply because is that is what the present law says – if the law said VKS737 users had to stand on one leg when transmitting then VKS737 would parrot that too. However if VKS737 said non Type Approved equipment was permitted they would be in trouble – it’s not their decision it’s part of their Class Licence for these frequencies. The government owns their frequencies VKS737 merely hire (or borrow?) them.

Mike Harding

So then we are agreed that amateur equipment is not to be used on VKS737 frequencies.

It really doesn't worry me at all, as I have and use Codan equipment, but my concern was that other members of EO may get the wrong idea as to which equipment was permitted to be used on VKS737 frequencies.

>So then we are agreed that amateur equipment is not to be
>used on VKS737 frequencies.

No, we are not.

I say the only worthwhile difference, which may affect anyone using Amateur kit and Class Licenced kit is the manual tuning as opposed to fixed tuning.

Otherwise I, yet again, refer you to AS4770:2000 and ask that you highlight any other significant differences? Has anyone on this forum even read that standard, I wonder?

I suggest people consider why they are paying a significant premium for a radio which does less for more money?

Mike Harding

>I suggest people consider why they are paying a significant >premium for a radio which does less for more money?

Have a look at followup No.7, It sould be self explanatory.

>Have a look at followup No.7, It sould be self explanatory.

Only to people with a vested financial interest in the situation

Mike Harding
.

Oh you really know how to hurt a guy.
I make less money from Hf radio than you can imagine.
But I've noticed that NONE of the points have been answered by the guy with the axe to grind.

You called ?:))

The set is going to cost more to fix than $4300? I don't think so. Even if it's a Barrett :)
More details needed please.
What model of radio and what sort of problems does it have?
Some parts are scarce, but most are not impossible to source.

BTW I regularly fix codans from your side of the beach :)

Thanks guys, the radio is a Codan 9232. The following is the response from the repairer:

"Upon inspection the unit was found to be faulty as follows,
* Automatic tuner unit ( early type ) requires a full service as it
is "Seized" and not selecting frequencies. Full rebuild required.

* Dead short in ATU Tuning circuit

* RF bale requires replacement

* No TX Secall encode. This is required for RFDS Assistance and
alerting / calling other units

* Unit is not upgradeable in firmware as it is an early type
radio.Already upgraded to its maximum limits.

* Control cable has a broken connector and fractured control ribbon requires replacement

* Microphone head socket U/S ( in control head )

* Display head consumables required

* General consumables required.

The unit given its age and potential for a prolonged operation is deemed not economically viable.
Rob I have attached a copy of the NGT as a replacement unit for you to view. Ideally the difference in "voice " operation is minimal however the NGT does offer superior performance and installation advantages given its size and ease of operation.
The unit has a greater range of flexibility for network operation and search functions for channels."


The price that they quoted for the Codan NGT AR Voiuce Mobile Pack is $4,408.75 GST exc and includes the following:
- Transceiver, extension speaker, keypad with handset display, cables, 9350 auto tuner with a 1.2m stainless steel whip antenna & fibreglass whip, 9350 spring base, 6m control cable, coax and vehicle installation kit, programmed to suit. 2 year warranty on radion, 12 months warranty on accessories.

I can get a sat phone cheaper than this but I realy would prefer the HF set.

Ok that's a better idea so lets have a peek at the costs.
ATU not ATUing...could be a number of things, a late model replace is around $1500 but you might get a rebuild for a lot less.
RF Bale ? What the heck is that ?
Dead short in atu unit...that would be fixed with the atu.
No selcall encode....ahhh, thats more like it. 3 or 4 hours labour and bits at the most say $300
New cable with connectors is around $120 from Codan Brizvagas.
Mic head socket. Now thats a hard one to source but not impossible..$20 + labour
Consumeables...???? I've never charged for consumeables...do they think they're mechanics ? :)
As I see it you have 2 or 3 choices.
1. Get them to repair it
2. Get someone else to repair it
3. Buy a new NGT from the cheapest supplier.

Thanks heaps footloose. If I understand it right you estimate it to be around the $2,000 mark to repair?? This is a lot cheaper than buying a new unit and I doubt I will be getting it repaired by this crowd nor buy a unit from them if that is the case as I feel they have misled me.

Robert, I'd say under $2000 but not by much. It's obviously had a hard life and is an early model, so it depends how long you wish to keep it, how often you'll use it etc.
But I'd steer you away from that mob by the sounds of it.
Check with your accountant if necessary, it might be better financially to buy a new one (NGT) but don't buy from them.
Others have given you a few sources for a new one at cheaper prices.
It seems that everyone in WA must earn 200K a year at those prices :))
Your poor radio sounds like it's been run over by a road train :((
If I can help further email me direct at jim DOT potts AT bigpond.com

We can legitimately claim this and/or sat phones as operating expenses due to remote area travel and work. There is no tax adavantage, merely and operating expense.

Has this repairer ever repaired a HF set before ????

Does he have any test equipment for HF, or was he planning on buying that out of the repair payment ?

Tell him he's dreaming!

Large reputable communications specialist. They deal in all comms gear and we have used them in the past without problems although they have always been a bit on the high side. I am not sure that I am allowed to name them here or even whether that would be appropriate.

LOL

Correct with the GST but trust me its just easier for me and although the accountant is a PITA they are dilligent and efficient which is pretty hard to find now. I have just found less hassle using an eftpos machine and getting a tax invoice. On occassions when I can't then so be it, but it is my preference

You people are being ripped off:

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-01.htm
Yaesu FT-857D - $900 (Good price! I paid $1k for mine).

Mike Harding

doesnt seem to come with an auto tune antena Mike matter of fact does it even support one?
Given the absence of one and the cost of them the difference between the prices for unit only would be far closer than you are suggesting.
certainly i would prefer to stick with my $600 barrett. if anything goes wrong with it all i need do is drive 15 min down the road for repairs.
however the main reason I got a barret was working for a place with 20 or so 4bys that REALLY go bush. when the tojos are stuffed they just take the barret out of the old and put it in the new 4by.

I have seen a unit like that and was intriqued by its size although the one i saw had some other external unit (dont ask me what where or why) he said it needed aditionally

>doesnt seem to come with an auto tune antena Mike

Correct - none of the Amateur Radios come packaged with an antenna afaik.

> matter of fact does it even support one?

Yes, they do.

First question is... why do you think you need an auto-tune antenna?

Second question is... do you think the only auto-tune capable of being fitted to a Barrett ot Codan is one made by those manufacturers?

Third question is... is that your sole reason for being prepared to pay 3 or 4 times for the product?

Mike Harding

what i am saying is you are not comparing apples with apples
You are comparing the price of a unit without an autotune with one that does so the price of the autotune will go along way to making up the price difference. simulary withourt an autotune it would be considerably cheaper
you are comparing a unit with no ariel no base no mounting brackets etc with one that does.
As for being prepared to pay 3-4 times the price .............................. My barret and multi tap still came in at about 1/2 the price of that unit and it comes with the benifit of local repair/backup

>what i am saying is you are not comparing apples with apples
>You are comparing the price of a unit without an autotune
>with one that does

Fair do's Davoe - I didn't realise the price people were quoting on here included the autotune antenna.

So add another $500 for a waterproof antenna tuner and we're up to A$1400. Keep in mind you really don't need an autotune antenna with a mobile HF set anyway. Even at $1400 we're still looking at 2 to 2.5 times the price...?

4WD People do seem to be hung up on autotune antennas ("they're expensive... so they must be good") but in every situation a half wave wire dipole (cost $10) strung up in the trees will out-perform an autotune.

Mike Harding

Utter dribble.
A dipole is essentially a one band aerial unless you use a lossy tuner.
How many dipoles can tune between 2 meg and 15 meg in 30 seconds? None!
And how many dipoles have an inbuilt scan amplifier ? Zilch!
How many dipoles can be used while mobile ? None again.
And just for your information, Mike, there simply aren't ANY trees to string dipoles from in MOST of Australia.

An auto tune is alot more than $500 I think more like $1500
So add $1500 to the price of a cheap set or take it off of the price of a barret/codan then you will get a better indication of price difference.
Pulled my second hand barrett case off to change the sell call No and expected to have to de dust the componants as it looked like it had been "used"
was pleasantly surprised to pull the lid off and find it appearing to be as dust free as they day it left the factory.
and saying 4wd people are hung up on auto tunes is a generalization. I purposely bought a multi tap so it could be romoved for bushwork

>An auto tune is alot more than $500 I think more like $1500

Only with the exorbitantly priced "4WD" radios - otherwise it's $500 probably less if you shop around.

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-01.htm

Scroll down to the FC-40 and it covers a _much_wider range than the Land Mobile ones.

Mike Harding

There ya go, Dave. A lossy tuner which will go up to 54meg (eh? I hear you say) but will only operate if you find a tree and with a specific ham transceiver.
But it's CHEEP.

Mike,
What antenna do you use when mobile? Not stationary mobile, but while driving.

Footy,
There are plenty of trees for Mike to string up his dipole up here, but the tuning box will need to be waterproof.

>What antenna do you use when mobile?
>Not stationary mobile, but while driving.

I don’t have HF installed in the vehicle. I bought my Yaesu FT-857D with the full intention of vehicle mounting it but decided against it for a few reasons: I really enjoy sitting by the camp fire chatting to people and would not want to be confined to the vehicle in order to do that. Working Amateur SSB HF is a bit of a fiddly operation what with tuning and button pressing for filters etc and probably a bit dangerous from a driving perspective. Given those two reasons I decided the hassle of getting HF working noise free in the vehicle wasn’t worth the trouble as I probably wouldn’t use it much anyway. Therefore the rig accompanies me in a box along with a free-standing 90Ah AGM and I set up in camp – I’m usually in the same spot for some time.

The vehicle antenna I bought is a tapped whip:
Famparc tapped HF whip antenna
and a good antenna given the limitations of verticals especially on the lower frequencies.

In camp I use an inverted vee cut for 80m and an antenna tuner. The inverted vee either uses a tree or, failing that, a squid pole for the high point; even though the squid pole is only 7m the antenna still works well on all bands.
Inverted vee wire antenna

Famparc also do a tapped antenna for VKS737 and given that VKS only has five frequencies and only two of those are commonly used I would have thought an expensive autotune antenna was serious overkill – how much “autotuning” do people _actually_ do when they are mobile?

Mike Harding

I use a Codan 9350 on the end of my 9323 in the car.
The later model HF can have up to 400 "channels" installed (including the amateur freqencies), ranging from 1.6 to 27MHz.

Trying to get a tapped whip to cover the enormous number of frequencies potentially available would be next to impossible.

The 9350 autotune has a built-in broadband amplifier, which is enabled when scanning. I am usually scanning a combination of VKS, Radtel, RFDS and 27MHz frequencies when travelling. If I receive a call (via selcall or otherwise), it is just a matter of hitting the "tune" button on the mic, or remote head and the aerial is tuned to the lowest possible SWR for that particular frequency.

Tapped whips are very good and in particular, robust, but restrict the capabilities of the modern HF radio somewhat.

It sounds as if the autotune antenna is a good choice for your requirements.

>The 9350 autotune has a built-in broadband amplifier

Yes… and I’m a little mystified as to why? Any modern HF set should have sufficient gain in its front end to handle weak signals so I don’t understand why they choose to build a wide band amp into the antenna? Either the signal is there or it ain’t and no amount of amplification will alter the signal to noise ratio. I do wonder if it’s to compensate for the inefficiencies of a vertical trying to work across such a wide frequency range?

>Tapped whips are very good and in particular, robust, but restrict the
>capabilities of the modern HF radio somewhat.

Quite true but, in reality, how many 4WDs use more than 2 or 3 VKS frequencies?

You in Vic, Stu (or “Bob!” – not a Blackadder fan by any chance? :)

Mike Harding

Mike,

I am in Cairns, FNQ.

Blackadder was great when it was on TV, haven't seen it for years now.

Bob is my HZJ105.

>I am in Cairns, FNQ.

Too long since I've been to FNQ Stu and, given I'm a thunderstorm junkie, I should try to get up there again soon - and why the hell not I ask!? (Casting all current responsibilities aside! :)

>Blackadder was great when it was on TV,

There was a particular episode with a girl (masquerading as a man) who had the name of "Bob!" - impossible to do in writing but imagine a very shortened pronunciation of the word with the emphasis on the 'O' :)

Mike Harding

I paid $140 for a 9323 with remote head at auction last year.

Works just fine, keeping it as a spare.

Thanks Jerry, the following is the radio type and the response from the repairer.

As discussed please be advised that the 9323 HF Radio for repair is deemed beyond economical repair.

A purchase order for $ 160.00 Plus GST is required to cover the diagnosis and survey.



Upon inspection the unit was found to be faulty as follows,



* Automatic tuner unit ( early type ) requires a full service as it

is "Seized" and not selecting frequencies. Full rebuild required.

* Dead short in ATU Tuning circuit

* RF bale requires replacement

* No TX Secall encode. This is required for RFDS Assistance and

alerting / calling other units

* Unit is not upgradeable in firmware as it is an early type

radio.Already upgraded to its maximum limits.

* Control cable has a broken connector and fractured control ribbon

requires replacement

* Microphone head socket U/S ( in control head )

* Display head consumables required

* General consumables required.



The unit given its age and potential for a prolonged operation is deemed not economically viable.

Hi Robert,

All that is certainly a headache, I don't mind a challenge but I will pass on this one. As said by others above there are better options than repairing a unit in that state.

Regards, Jerry.

I have also bought from the same bloke and would send others to him.
I bought an "old" barret 250 with multitap for under $1k.
He offered for me to bring it back once I had installed (myself), to make sure is wasn't just working, it was working well, and to also "check up" on my installtion ensuring I had got it right, as well as SWR aerial, to unit.
We found a dicky wire (the externall one) on antenna, replaced straight away.
I found it to be a top little set, I didn't want all the bells and whistles that come with the flashy units, just something basic, for that coupla weeks once a year trip.
Shane

just as well they don't make HF fridges on tyres with GPS and Next G capability eh? :)