Some people....

Submitted: Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 14:51
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Hi all. Just wanted tlo share this weekends fourby experince with you all. My family and I headed up to the Glass House mountains for the day for a bit of a play as there is always great driving up there.

Headed up with a mate who drives a V6 4runner. Never been off road, and never had it dirty Some great puddles around and lots of mud.

In the lower areas there were quite a few puddles, but the rest was very dry. One rather large 'puddle' proved to be quite challenging.

Didnt look deep at all, and the fact that there were a group of about 5 dirt bikes on the other side of the 'puddle' who had just driven through didnt make us think twice. We started across (all the guys on the bikes were just watching us) We got about 1/4 of the way across until we got stuck and slid in even further.

Water was half way up the door on the front passenger side. Missus was screaming, son was screaming, water was pouring into the car. Was the deepest puddle I have ever seen! Never would have thought it would have been so deep.

Thank god we had another vehicle with us who was able to pull us out (we had a winch but by the time we had it ready to go car would have been swamped). Got out safely with only the water damage.

Might also mention that we found out later that the bloody dirt bikes went tearing though the same puddle b4 we got there. Their bikes sunk and conked out. They just thought it would be funny to watch someone else swimming around in a huge puddle!! They could see that there were kids in the car and didnt say a word. Really disappointed in some peoples attitudes. I know better now. I know it was partly my fault and I should never have just assumed it was shallow like all the other puddles b4 it, but at the same time I would never just sit back and watch someone do something that was potentially dangerous.

Stripped car out (seats and carpet) so all ready for a huge clean. Was still a great day.
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Reply By: Member - Warfer (VIC) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 14:57

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 14:57
**Didnt look deep at all, and the fact that there were a group of about 5 dirt bikes on the other side of the 'puddle' who had just driven through didnt make us think twice. We started across (all the guys on the bikes were just watching us) We got about 1/4 of the way across until we got stuck and slid in even further.

They just thought it would be funny to watch someone else swimming around in a huge puddle!! They could see that there were kids in the car and didnt say a word. Really disappointed in some peoples attitudes. I know better now.**



Thats great Hayley you know better now,I dont mean to sound harsh mate but its up to YOU to establish the depth no-one else...In future get out and measure it...There lucky (wife and kids) that it was just a big bog hole and not a faster flowing river !


Cheers
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:27

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:27
Warfer you've summed the situation up pretty well. (its up to YOU to establish the depth)
"I know it was partly my fault " Actually Hayley it's totally your responsibility seeing you neither asked them nor checked the depth yourself. It's not as though they lied about how deep it was. Rarely do spectators wait to see how you'll go on an easy boghole.
Lesson learnt.
Cheers Craig.............
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Reply By: PatrolSTL04 - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:02

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:02
Hopefully it will be "what goes around, comes around" for those dirt bike riders one day.

Pretty poor performance and lack of any consideration for them not to stop you going in. They could of atleast told you what happened, then you would have definately waded through or gave it a miss.

Hopefully you will have some plenty hot days to dry it all out....its takes a long time, and sometimes other problems with electrics show up later...hopefully they wont.

Brett....
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Follow Up By: robertbruce - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:10

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:10
looks like eveyone was making the same mistake...the trialers prolly would have helped if it was actually dangerous.
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:17

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:17
AnswerID: 348163 Submitted: Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:15
PatrolSTL04 replied:
Hopefully it will be "what goes around, comes around" for those dirt bike riders one day.

It already had apparently .....
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Reply By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:23

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:23
Good to see it all turned out OK .....

Good lesson though .... the person hanging onto the steering wheel is responsible for where the vehicle goes .....

Not surprised the bike riders didnt do anything ... they suffer from waterlogging a lot quicker than a 4wd ... probably thought you would make it.

Probably also - they have been told to mind their own business, by know it all 4wders, in the past ... something I've witnessed.

As long as they werent encouraging you into untested waters - I wouldnt lay any blame or fault on them.

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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:26

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:26
Dont forget to check ALL your oils for water contamination while your drying out the inside.
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Follow Up By: Member - Warfer (VIC) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:28

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:28
probably thought you would make it.



Was thinking along the same lines to Oz !



Cheers
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Reply By: On Patrol & TONI - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:55

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 15:55
Hayley
That sounds like a trick that an old timer on the telgraph track up to the Cape told me about: (not me, but I have thought of doing it sometimes).

If you come to a crossing that you dont want to wade through first you sit with your rear end just at the waters edge and when you hear a vehicle coming the other way you drive out just as they come into sight (keeping them in sight in your mirror). They think you have just crossed and wade right in, If they make it through OK then you turn around and drive their line through the crossing, because you now have a good idea of the depth etc without getting your feet wet. If they dont make it you have a chance to become a hero and drag them out.

Cheers Colin.
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Reply By: Member - Royce- Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 16:10

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 16:10
I once took my little 1800 Subaru into Wannangatta with my teenage son. Three other vehicles went with. 80 series landcruiser, 70 series tray, and rangie.

Big laugh they thought, to show up my little soft-roader. "follow us"... they headed off across a seemingly flat but moist area.

The 80 gunned it through, I was coming down the steep slope behind him, not all that close, but close enough not to be able to change my mind!

He struggled to get through. I hit the best line I could and picked the best speed I could...... skimmed across the top and slid up the other side... side on. No problem. and then..... lol.... and then

Tray and Rangie followed. No problem... even the Subie had made it.... Nup... both sank and badly. Had to be winched out.

Still, I was a bit grumply at the obvious plan the others had had to get me stuck! Only for a short while. The 80 had to do a lot of work to get the others out.

Same trip, watched a bunch of yobs 'playing' in a similar mud puddle to yours. They would have thought that it was all part of the fun, and that you would have realized that a bunch watching you as you describe, were virtually inviting you to 'have a go'.



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Reply By: Motherhen - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 18:10

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 18:10
Glad you all got out of the water safely, kids and all. Did the group with bikes signal you across with smiles - or tell you afterwards they had 'tricked' you? If not, they probably assumed you knew the area, and knew what you were doing.

Pleased you can say at the end of it that it was still a great day. I hope your car recovers well and is proud of the adventure.

Motherhen
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AnswerID: 348189

Reply By: Shaker - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 18:40

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 18:40
You missed the biggest clue that it was going to be ugly ...... the very fact that people were waiting on the other side & watching!
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Follow Up By: Hayley_Demc - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 19:24

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 19:24
The ppl on the other side had already been through!!!
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:07

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:07
In that case, as I said, they were on the other side!

That is why they were waiting to watch you, they knew what it was like!
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Follow Up By: Hayley_Demc - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:48

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:48
And in my opinion they should have warned us.
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 21:12

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 21:12
FollowupID: 616441 Submitted: Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:48
Hayley_Demc posted:
And in my opinion they should have warned us.


Originally I gave you the benefit of the doubt and figured you had just been unlucky ..... even offered you a reminder to check your oils ... something so many forget after a dunking ....

However myself and others have offered many reasons why the riders did not stop you. Everything from a prank to it being none of their business would pretty much cover the responses so far.

YOU bought the vehicle ... YOU chose to bang it round in the boonies ... YOU chose to drive it through a waterhole without testing the depth ...

And yet YOU want others to be responsible for YOUR actions ... and in this case the "others" are not even users of a vehicle like yours and probably have no idea of your vehicles capability or lack thereof.

Sheesh, its beginning to sound like you expected them to remove you and your family from the vehicle, walk the boghole and safely drive the vehicle through ... or around for you.

A simple rule ... If you dont know the track ... get out and walk the hazard unless you witness another vehicle traverse it.

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 23:26

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 23:26
"And in my opinion they should have warned us."

They did, but you were to naive to realise!
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Follow Up By: robak (QLD) - Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 14:46

Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 14:46
Generally, the people who like to conquor "puddles", don't like being told what to do.

Perhaps, from past experience, the bikers have learnt to keep their mouths shut.
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Reply By: Wazza - (Vic) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:58

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 20:58
I fail to see how the guys on the bikes are at fault. A bike can conk out in under a meter of water. A half decent (read prepared) 4wd should be able to get through water around a meter deep or more with no problems. So the bikes conked out .... does not mean a 4wd is never going to make it.

I would say that in your words 'partly my fault' is around 99%.

Would I trust my wife, kids and vehicle to a group of guys on dirt bikes that may not know the capabilities of me and my 4wd? Maybe ..... about 1% chance.

May sound harsh, but hey .... I would say you learnt a lesson.
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Reply By: Member - Warfer (VIC) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:07

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:07
**And in my opinion they should have warned us.**



Hiya Heyley

My best advice to you is if you decide to do this type of thing again is seriously change your attitude quick smart for the safety of your family,What if no-one was around,which happens on a lot of occasions,do you expect them to put a sign up ??...

Not long ago i crossed a river,knew the depth but the vehicle became light,sucked me backwards down rapids and got stuck half on half down a bank and gully,Now at one stage i thought it was unrecoverable had it let go and gone further down the river..It happens real quick too and so does the filling up of water in the car...
We eventually winched her out.

When i got home and i looked on the net the river had been in flood 2 weeks earlier.I had driven this crossing before but not so much water.
You will make mistakes still but you need to know if there is logs,small boulders (flood litter) etc etc...

Goodluck

Cheers


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Reply By: Trevor R (QLD) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:09

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:09
Sounds like it is time for a big service on the Surf. As OzTroopy has suggested stick your head underneath and check the pumpkins and the box for water ingress, water inside the cab is the least of potentially big problems when you sit in water for any length of time. Especially if you went in hot which it sounds like you did (not giving it too much of a rest before driving in).

How deep inside the cab and do you have much electrics in that thing?

Steep learning curve hey? I did the same thing with a relatively new Pathy back in 94/95?? took a mighty big Army Oka style truck with a massive winch to get me out. My mates Pajero was no match for my situation, only breaking straps and digging me in deeper.

Good luck with it.
Trevor.
AnswerID: 348241

Reply By: Member - Teege (NSW) - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:59

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 22:59
Hayley
I note from your profile that you are a 4wd club member. I would be strongly recommending to your club training officer that he /she rethink their training methods if you really feel that this was anyone's fault other than your own. Our club strenuously enforces the principle that the driver is the sole person responsible for where the vehicle goes. You did it - you wear it!!!

teege
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Follow Up By: Hayley_Demc - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 23:47

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 23:47
this is stupid! Did I not say that it was partly our fault. I simply meant that had the roles been reversed (had we been on the other end of the bog) I would have cautioned any other vehicles, whether they were bikes or 4wd's. That's all meant.
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Follow Up By: ross - Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 00:21

Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 00:21
In a perfect world all sorts of nice things happen.

Learn your lesson and dont rely on kids on motorbikes to protect your family and 4wd.
You broke the 1st rule of watercrossings and that is to ascertain the depth before plunging in

Get over it
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 at 16:29

Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 at 16:29
I guess it also begs the question: If the blokes on the bikes had actually advised you the crossing was okay, would you have attempted it? Or, If you were at the edge of a 200 meter high cliff and there was a bloke at the bottom yelling up to you that it is okay to jump cos there's a massive updraft and you'll just float down easily without hurting yourself..... what would you do?

Young blokes on bikes (I used to be one many years ago) are notorious for their ability to take the p!ss out of people and I wouldn't have placed any (not even 1%) faith in what they said or didn't say.

Tough call, but the steering wheel jockey is ALWAYS the ONLY person in charge of the horse.

I have been involved in 4WD Club training days and I have refused to drive my rig on a cross-slope which the instructor wanted me too. The vehicle may well have been capable of coping with the cross slope, but I wasn't 100% sure of this being the case (given that it has 4" lift and is somewhat top-heavy). For a split second I "worried" about what my mates would say to me.... being too chicken to "have a go". That feeling soon faded when I didn't have to subject myself to this ordeal. As far as I was concerned, this was MY vehicle and I was the only one who could decide whether to tackle an obstacle or not.
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Reply By: Sea-Dog - Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:33

Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:33
I have spent a bit of time in that area of bush and I reckon I have a pretty good idea of where you were at the time too..

Had I been on the other side and saw a car pull up and the driver getting out to check the water depth etc I would happily share my experience and thoughts on the "puddle"

However, if a car rocked up and didn't take the time to check it out etc and just started into it I also would probably stop to see what the outcome would be.

I think most of us can attest that if you are in an area where 4x4 play and there is a mud puddle it is a certain that it is going to be deep and boggy and the bottom is probably going to be around the depth of some 35" tyres.

Hard lesson but at least you and the family are safe and the lesson has been learnt.
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Reply By: garryk - Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:45

Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 12:45
G'day
Yes its easy to get caught out
Once on Cape York I got out to walk yet another creek crossing , and as all others had been ok I almost drove on in
I walked across where the right side wheel track was and only knee deep , turned and walked back via where the left side wheel tracks appeared to be and fell into a hole chest deep
If I had not checked not only would we have been in deep water we would have been on our side
and it all looked so clear , shallow and harmless in this case there was no one watching
but yes seeing people watching is is usually a good reason to expect that they expect to see some action at someone elses expense

Garry
AnswerID: 348308

Reply By: Kroozer - Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 20:57

Monday, Feb 09, 2009 at 20:57
I recently pulled up at a floodway in middle of night, still 40kms from home and with a big road closed sign blocking the way. Waited ten minutes, inspecting water level and current flow. Marker on side of road indicated it was around 600mm deep and was barely flowing at all. Couple of trucks pulled up on other side and we chatted over the UHF on our thoughts of crossing. The first truck which was brand new, on its first trip crossed over not a problem, as did the 2 others. They told me it was deep but shouldnt be a problem to my Cruiser with a snorkel, no current just pretty f@cken deep. Not wanting to spend the night there wishing we were home i decided i would give it a go. Well, deep was not the word, forget halfway up the doors, im talking over the headlights and level with the window and bonnet. Luckily my spotlights were higher then the headlights as that is the only light i had, about 100mm off the top of my Lightforce 240s. The amount of weight was incredible but i pushed through all the way, somehow managing to stay on the road. Never have i ever been through water so deep. Cruiser is a 75 series with bigger tyres and a 2inch lift, yet the water was level with the windows on my car. Checked air filter for water and not a drop, even though the snorkel has a crack in it which was filled with silicone ten years ago. Had only done gearbox, transfer and diffs 3 days before with all new Penrite, i really do not wanna check them. I dont wanna got hrough that agian already.

Moral of the story is, NO i wouldnt of blamed the truckies if anything had gone wrong. It was all my decision, though at least i asked first and didnt just expect someone to tell me. Its all up to the driver. His decision making and the capabilities of both vehicle and driver always have to be taken into account.

In your case though it was really a mistake that everyone would probably make. Just a puddle, with 5 motorbikes on the other side, everyone would probably just cross. Though how wet were the riders, did you observe that?
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Reply By: muzzgit - Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 at 23:00

Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 at 23:00
I have been on both sides of the fence, as I have been 4WDriving for nearly 20 years, but I also ride a quad bike, and sometimes we ride on bush tracks that are frequented by 4WD's.

I used to yell at dirt bike riders cos they make a lot of noise but now I realise that most of the time they just want somewhere to ride but every one shuts them out.

Not long ago while riding with 5 mates on our quads we experienced unpassable tracks that had been dug up by 4WD's that had obviously been bogged in the mud, and then the next week we came across an almost new landcruiser stuck in one of those mud holes because the driver did not bother to check the depth!

He was there for a few hours and he got awfully dirty as he dug himself out while his missus sat in the car and yelled at him for making a mess of the seats and carpet.

As a 4WDriver, it was hard to find any sympathy for him.
As a quad rider it was annoying knowing that THAT section of track would probably remain impassible to us for the rest of the year until the hot weather dried it out and it became a hard crusty cut up piece of track.

What do you do?
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Follow Up By: Rolly - Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 at 14:50

Thursday, Feb 12, 2009 at 14:50
I can empathise with that.
Tracks that I used to travel along quite comfortably in my 1970's VW Combi are now virtually impassable in anything less than an army tank.
Idiot "urban warriors" with excess money to burn have got themselves all geared up in every department except the most essential - brains.
Metrocentric idiots with no understanding of the bush should be required to do an extensive bush education course, including vehicle field repairs and recovery, conservation and damage minimisation, and bush survival before being allowed anywhere near the natural environment.
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