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Front end "clunk"

Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 16:53

Member - Jeff M (WA)

Ok, the Firestone air bags are in, it handles better, has more clearance, everything is good, except,
The car has always had a slight clunk when reversing out the drivingway, just a subtle knock as you apply the brake with the wheels turned. Since I put the air bags in the back and lifted the rear end by about 1" it knocks LOUDER. Not only that but it is knocking the same now even when just stopping at traffice lights or accelerating hard. It's deffinatally comming from the front end, I've got under the car, taken the front wheels off, I shaken, rattled and rolled everything and I can't find anything loose and I can't make or replicate the noise unless I hope in the car, lurch forward and put the brakes on hard.
WTF is it? Why has it gotten so much worse now the back end is higher, where do I start trying to find it. It's so bad that I'm scared to drive the bugger.

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AnswerID: 82577   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 17:31

Peter 2 replied:

I take it you are talking about the vehicle in your rig photo?
It appears to be a IFS 4 runner correct?
Probably the bushes where the front end mounts to the chassis, by lifting the back you've shifted the weight forwards ever so slightly accentuating the problem.
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Reply 1 of 14
FollowupID: 341619   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 17:44

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Yeah it's a surf which is just a grey import 4 runner with a TD motor. Ok, that makes sense, so hopefully not a big drama then... ??
I'll see if I can have a gander there, should I be able to physically see the problem if I look closley at the right place, or is it one of those things you just have the go and change and hope it fixes it?

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#2 Yellowdine National Park
#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
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AnswerID: 82584   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 17:50

Peter 2 replied:

I'd jack the front end up via the chassis so the whole subframe is hanging, put stands under the chassis (best not to get under a vehicle relying on a jack) and then see if you can shift anything with a pinch bar.
If nothing is obvious try spraying the bushes with a soapy water mix to lube them and see if it changes or even disappears.
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Reply 2 of 14
FollowupID: 341621   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 17:53

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

I had it up on axel stands (they were under the chasis rails) tried to move stuff around but nothing seemed to budge. Excuse my ignorance, but what's a pinch bar? Might give the soapy water a go, but I'd say there is deffinatally somthing wrong in there cause it's a nasty clunk now, but as you say perhaps bushes... Hopefuly....

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#1 - I'm not telling :-)
#2 Yellowdine National Park
#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
#4 Near Hyden WA
#5 Pinjar Pines
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FollowupID: 341636   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:57

Member - Roachie (SA) posted:

Pinch Bar.......

aka: "Jemmie"........"Burgulars Mate"........etc

A short crow bar type tool with a "U" shaped bend at one end. Both ends are flattened like a cold chisel. The end with the "U" shape has a "V" shape cut into it for exracting nails from timber etc. The other end is bent to about 30 degrees from straight.....

Hope this helps describe a pinch bar......:-))

Cya

Roachie

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FollowupID: 341638   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 19:00

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

LOL, and to think I work in security! :-P
Oh well, I assumed it would be a crow bar of some description. Fair enough... Looks like I've gotta get back under there for another look...

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AnswerID: 82591   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:16

Smocky replied:

G'day Jeff,

I had exactly that annoying problem in a Nissan Pulsar would you believe. Every time I reversed out with the wheels turned and put the brakes on, a little knock almost like something clicking back across or something like that.

I never did find out what it was, so I'm afraid I'm not a lot of help this time but wanted to mention it all the same so as you didn't think it was unique. I even put my car up on stands and tried shaking the wheels. It never got any worse and this was from near new.

The knocking I heard didn't sound like bushes, more like metal joint with a bit of play and it moved from point a to point b and impacted on the other side. (If that made any sense).

Because it happened when I put the brakes on, I was convinced that the brake calipers were moving slightly, but I could never prove it. Give the brake and wheel assemplies a good look and see if there is any play in that area.

Hope you find it anyway. Drove me nuts.

Cheers,

Smocky
Reply 3 of 14
FollowupID: 341623   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:19

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Yeah I always put it down to somthing like the calipers, but never really worried much about it as it was just not somthing that it did when you were driving.
But yeah this "new" louder sound does sound like something from point"a" to point "b" and a deffinate contact "clang" almost. Makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end!

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#1 - I'm not telling :-)
#2 Yellowdine National Park
#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
#4 Near Hyden WA
#5 Pinjar Pines
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AnswerID: 82595   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:39

rihearn replied:

My old Suby had a broken caliper mounting bolt on one of the front brake calipers, made a very disconcerting and palpable thump when the brakes were applied. Easily fixed when I finally found out what it was after 8 months of driving with one of the front brakes swinging in the wind!!
Reply 4 of 14
FollowupID: 341628   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:44

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Hmmm,nasty... The brake don't seem to pull to one side at all, but in saying that they have never been that fantastic pulling the beast up either...
Mind you I've had 3 4bies now and on a dry flat road I've sturggled to lock the wheels up on any of them if I jam the brakes on. They just seem to glide quietly to a stop. Perhaps the bigger tyres?? Still stops alright, but nothing like the ABS on the maxima I had before I started on the 4bies! LOL

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#1 - I'm not telling :-)
#2 Yellowdine National Park
#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
#4 Near Hyden WA
#5 Pinjar Pines
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FollowupID: 341635   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:54

Utemad posted:

You should drive a Rodeo. Easy as to lock the rear wheels. Not to hard to lock the fronts either.

I had a similar problem on an old VH Commodore. Alhough my caliper bolt fell out completely. However it then clunked whenever you touched the brake pedal. I replaced it the same day however.

Are you sure it is coming from the front? It can be hard to tell when you are in the car. I have chased noises in my cars before and found them to be in completely different locations than I had anticipated.
FollowUp 2 of 5
FollowupID: 341637   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:58

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Yeah Utemad... Pretty sure. I cannot make the sound when it's stationary so it'a a bit wishy woshy, however I've driven it with all the windows down, I also got the missus to drive up the drive way with my walking along side it with my head tilted down and it sounds for sure like it's comming from the front end... Beside the back end is SO basic. I've got a panhard rod, two springs, two shocks and the air bags. All of which have just been taken off and put back on and are pretty tight.

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#2 Yellowdine National Park
#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
#4 Near Hyden WA
#5 Pinjar Pines
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FollowupID: 341666   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 20:20

Smocky posted:

Hey Utey,

That new RA I've got has 4w ABS standard. Guess they figured it was a pretty useful addition in a vehicle with no weight on 2 wheels. Go figure.

One of the many reasons I chose the Rodeo over the other offerings. That plus the drastically better finish and extra cabin room.

Jeff, I'd definately giving a LOT of attention to the brakes and wheel assemblies. Perhaps even check the steering. Not sure what's in yours, but that's another area I thought the noise in my Nissan may have been coming from. Only because it happend on full lock and not if I backed straight out. Check brake calipers for sure as well as stabliser bays, tie rod ends etc.

Hope you find it. I sold mine rather than find the noise :-)
FollowUp 4 of 5
FollowupID: 341733   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 02, 2004 at 07:44

Utemad posted:

Jeff,

Sounds like you have invested a lot of time in this noise. Hope you find it.

Smocky,

Utes in the USA have been using rear ABS to control wheel lockup when unloaded for years while we still struggle along with the rear proportioning valve thing. However it sounds like we may be going the ABS route if your Rodeo has it. Sounds good to me.
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AnswerID: 82603   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 18:58

Wayne (NSW) replied:

Jeff,
A good mystery. I would go back to the start and lower the air bags and see if the clunk is still there. If There is only a slight clunk like there was before the air bags went in then that is where you have to start. Raising the back via the air bags means that the trailing arms have changed angle, the uni's have changed angle, the shocks are at a different lenght of expansion and the springs are not seating in the spring seats like they were before. Even if you take it out the rear tail shaft and drive the vehicle with front wheel drive only and see if the clunk goes. If the clunk is still there than the uni's and tail shaft can be crossed of the list. Inflat the air bags again and see if the rear springs are loose by placing the rear axel on axel stands, remove the rear wheels and try to move the rear springs. At the same time have a look at the shocks are the bushes still good and do the shocks move at all. The same might have to be done to the front if nothing can be found in the back.
Good luck and I hope that you can find it soon so that you can get back and enjoy the Surf.

Wayne
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FollowupID: 341639   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 19:05

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Thanks Wayne, yeah it just can't be the rear spring IMO as even with the shocks and panhard rod disconnected and the axel and full articulation the spring were still in hard, that's why we need spring compressors to get the mongals out. But Yeah I guess it could be shock bushes, the top of the shocks at the front seem to swivel, but they are the bits that have the wires going into them for the soft/hard adjustment. The shock it's self does not seem to move no matter how hard I shake it. Perhaps shock bushes. The tail shaft does not seem to have much slack on it so I can't see that being the problem, I was under the car while the missus was chaning back and forth from drive to reverse and the dive gives a little little when changing direction but the uni's don't seem to be loose at all. Perhaps I should take the rear shaft out and see what happens...

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FollowupID: 341642   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 19:06

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

Sorry that was "Diff" not "dive" :-)

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AnswerID: 82613   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 19:33

Member - Darryl replied:

Try making sure the exhaust is not touching when under brakes,My jack does it now and then when braking

darryl
Reply 6 of 14
AnswerID: 82626   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 20:31

hoyks replied:

I just cured a similar problem in my T2. It turned out to be the jounts on the front anti sway torsion bar thingie. The joints that conected the sway bar to the lower A arms were flogged out and would make a clunk in corners and when droping down the driveway.

hope it helps.
Reply 7 of 14
AnswerID: 82627   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 20:34

Richard & Leonie replied:

I do not know what front suspension your car has. Mine has torsion bar and it tends to clunk as it unwinds from stationry. Had it checked out and it was all OK. Its just one of those things. (Hey that would be a good line for a song.)
Richard and Leonie, The grey nomads. The afterburner really upsets tailgaters.
Reply 8 of 14
AnswerID: 82631   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 20:43

Voxson (Adelaide) replied:

I dont know the makeup of Surfs but it looks like you dont mind driving it hard.....
So having said that, could it be body mounts?

My front end was knocking like a salvo on red shield day.... Under harshish braking, under brisk acceleration, hitting the right bump on a road, corrugations it was woeful...

Changed the body mounts and so quiet now.... But i am probably barking up the wrong tree because i dont know the first thing of your vehicle..
Reply 9 of 14
FollowupID: 341769   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 02, 2004 at 11:31

Member - Jeff M (WA) posted:

LOL, yeah she cops a floggin. :-)
Your desription sounds spot on. I played around again last night. I can actually make it do it every time now, just flog it in either reverse or drive and jam the brakes on - - - CLUNK!
Deffinatally comming from front passenger side... Checked the calipers they are rock solid, perhaps body mount, it looks ok, but looks with bushes means diddly. I got it sitting on axel stands under the front chasis rails with the front wheels off at the mo, shake rattle and roll, canna make it do it!! DOH! Might be a trip to a suspension mob.... :-(

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#3 Powerline Trek - Saywers Valley
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#5 Pinjar Pines
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FollowupID: 341781   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 02, 2004 at 12:37

Voxson (Adelaide) posted:

Well actually i did all the tests you are doing and with no luck finding the clunk.. It drove me crazy for weeks....
Then one day i was at 4wd systems complaining about it and Tom grabbed the front guard and reefed it up as hard as he could and there it was... "clunk".... and again "clunk"...

Before that i was checking engine mounts, gearbox mounts, calipers, etc etc etc....

Dont grab the bull bar... just the body somewhere....
Maybe.. Maybe not...
FollowUp 2 of 2
AnswerID: 82643   Submitted: Monday, Nov 01, 2004 at 21:20

Member - Clive G (WA) replied:

Gday Jeff

haveing the front end up and trying to move things around by hand sometimes dont work as you do require a bit more force to find worn bushes etc,

just a thought, jack up the front of the car by the chassy, then place a jack under the wheel preferrably a wind up and down one, have a freind winding the jack up and down only needing to move the wheel about half an inch, while you check for moving parts . cv joints, ball joints, bushes etc

Clive
Reply 10 of 14
AnswerID: 82675   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 02, 2004 at 00:16

Bob H replied:

Hi Jeff
a friend had the same problem in their camry after a new shockie was fitted to the front. we checked everything but could not find the noise. i insisted they take it back to the mechanic who fitted the shock. surprise, no noise now and the mechanic said that a bolt had come loose. better explanation i suppose than admitting that they did not tighten something up properly. i would be checking every bolt and nut on suspension and brakes that i could see. hope that you find the problem and that it is an easy fix.

regards

Bob
Reply 11 of 14
AnswerID: 82684   Submitted: Tuesday, Nov 02, 2004 at 05:50

Member - Paul replied:

Check the idler arm and connections. Sometimes they can dry out and produce the same noise especially going over bumps.

Regards

Paul
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AnswerID: 83007   Submitted: Thursday, Nov 04, 2004 at 14:02

Member - Jeff M (WA) replied:

Well I've let the air bags down in the rear and it clunked twice leaving home, once through the first round about when braking then through the second and then it stopped, it's been quiet ever since... Very bizzare.
I also think that it might be comming from around the front of the transfer box/gear box. Must be a uni or somthing, I've re-greased them up and they don't "SEEM" lose but it's gotta be somthing in there. Probally going to take it to a mechanic next week when I'm on holidays and find out WTF.

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AnswerID: 84169   Submitted: Friday, Nov 12, 2004 at 21:26

Andrew replied:

Jeff
Had this problem after a trip through the Simpson in TD 100. Very annoying. Spent days crawling underneath.
The dealer (Canon Toyota at Camberwell Melbourne) fixed it completely.
They advised that they hoisted the vehicle off the ground on all four wheels then progressively loosened then tightened all the supsension components.
The clunk not only went but the ride felt like new.
Good luck.
Reply 14 of 14