gas systems for diesel engines

Submitted: Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 21:16

ThreadID: 18664 Views:5295 Replies:11 FollowUps:14

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reeceb

I recently read a question (and answers) posted on 18th October regarding LPG systems for diesel engines and I would like to inform anyone interested in this type of modification that myself and a friend of mine have imported a kit from the states using normal BBQ gas or Propane (bottled gas) and fitted to an 84 330HP V8 Mercedes Benz Truck. The system relies on the turbo boost pressure to proportionately let gas or I should say vapour, into the inlet manifold with no computer or mixer to regulate it. It operates entirely on boost pressure so non turbo engines cannot use this system! and let me tell you we had it dyno tested in dandenong VIC and the results were unbelievable. The engine was a standard 330Hp (@ flywheel)factory. when the gas was on it had 400hp AT THE REAR WHEELS!!! on the minimum economy setting. Now this kit was initially designed for SUV trucks in the US like the Diesel Chev, Ford and Dodge engines but has now gone thru to the heavy truck sector as well. We are about to receive another 3 kits one for my 360HP Scania Rigid and my Western Star with a 600HP CAT and another friends 300HP International S-Line. Pending the results of this, I intend to put one on My 99 2.8 Patrol but with the particular company installing kits into 170 vehicles a week, the results should speak for themselves. Now early in the new year we plan to take up the distribution rights for Australasia offering these kits to truck and 4WD owners alike. If there is interest shown from this i would be happy to explain the ins and outs and everything else. Lastly, this Benz in Question was getting around 2.1-2.2 kms per litre running to Sydney from Melbourne with around 20Ton on. With the gas kit it is consistantly getting 3kms per litre using a 9kg bottle there and back. The Propane acts as a "catalyst" when combined with diesel fuel. When propane is added to diesel fuel, almost 100% of the fuel is burned (as opposed to approximately 75% without propane injection)More soon!!!

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Reply By: rb30s - Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 21:30

Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 21:30

Sounds IMPRESSIVE!!!!

More info please.

Adrian

AnswerID: 89286

Follow Up By: reeceb - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:36

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:36

It is believe me. It is so simple that I don't know why it hasn't been done before but I think that people have always based their systems on car LPG technology which sees a car running soley on gas. This system just injects a puff of vapour to help burn the diesel more cleanly and efficiently and is regulated by the boost pressure.

FollowupID: 348279

Follow Up By: reeceb - Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 13:19

Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 13:19

Send me your email and i will send some pics showing the kit in packed form and some dyno reports the came with the kit literature...Reeceb@bigpond.net.au

FollowupID: 348326

Reply By: SteveL - Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 22:28

Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 22:28

I have a '91 MAN prime mover I would like to use the system on.-Steve L.

AnswerID: 89293

Follow Up By: reeceb - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:29

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:29

Hi Steve, What you need to do first is get a boost pressure gauge connected to your inlet manifold (If the MAN's don't have a factory unit) I got a cheap one from repco (a speco unit)for $50 and installed it in five minutes with all the plumbing supplied in the gauge kit. Watch the gauge, what it will do is for example, under excelleration, the boost will go slow up to say 5psi then take off really fast to say 15 or even 20psi then slow right down. you have to watch the tacho and see what revs the engine is doing at these two points. My Scania boost started at 5psi @ 1200rpm to 20psi @ 1550rpm. This is all the info you need along with engine make,type, HP etc and a kit will be made to suit your application. Thanks :-)

FollowupID: 348278

Reply By: Member - Jimbo (VIC) - Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 23:05

Friday, Dec 17, 2004 at 23:05

How does it affect engine longevity?

I'm lead to believe Linfox trialled this a couple of years ago and got good performance and economy results, but they started blowing engines.

Cheers,

Jim.

AnswerID: 89302

Follow Up By: Savvas - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:00

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:00

Sydney buses has been running compressed natural gas for a number of years on a lot of their fleet. They are getting a million + k's out of their Mercs and Scanias.

FollowupID: 348266

Follow Up By: reeceb - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:19

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:19

yes I had heard about the linfox trials but they were using a lpg setup like that on a car which is fed under pressure into a converter and forcing it into the cylinders causing the heads to blow off the block! This system is actually low pressure and uses propane vapour, that is the gas is taken from the top of the bottle unlike a car which is in liquid form until it goes thru the converter. It is a very simple system with few parts and can be installed by anyone who can read instructions...seriously!. Because it is low pressure, you don't need any license or do any courses to fit (We have enquired about this!) a bit like connecting up your BBQ! The results are amazing and undeniable as I was sceptical at first also! Thanks

FollowupID: 348274

Reply By: Member Eric - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 07:34

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 07:34

Have been looking at this system for a while , also there is a good system in the the UK

AnswerID: 89327

Reply By: Member - David C (QLD) - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 10:29

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 10:29

LPG injection is use a fair bit on 4wd comp trucks. Alben Perritt (Owner landcruiser mountain park) had a system fitted to his new 4.2 turbo GU. His system was plumbed so that it constantly fed around 5 psi with fantastic results. Had a 90 litre lpg tank under tray which would see him through 3 tanks of diesel. This was fitted by a company in Brisbane called Clean Green or something.

Others just have a small tank and switch the gas "on demand" when competing (similar to nitrous systems)

Regards
David

AnswerID: 89340

Follow Up By: reeceb - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:55

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:55

Hi David, This system we installed on the Merc has two bottles mounted behind the cab. It uses the Swap and Go bottles available at servos. It has two switches inside the cab, an "arm" and an "on" switch. But I know you can have normal LPG tanks made so that the vapour is taken off the top. Just note also that the LPG in NSW (not sure about other states) I am told is 100% propane but in VIC, the propane is allowed to have a certain percentage of Butane mixed with it (30% i think) so this means the gas in VIC is crap compared to NSW. So always fuel up with LPG in NSW rather than VIC if you can!...Reece

FollowupID: 348281

Reply By: Member - Geoff M (NSW) - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:51

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 22:51

Hello Crew,
You've just tweaked my memory.
About 20 years ago one of the Australian 4wd magazines of the time ran an article on a similar system. From memory it was called "DieselPane" or similar. (Diesel/Propane)
It was some form of mixing chamber in the induction path of the engine.
Wasn't particularly successful at the time, engines fitted with the system where prone to breaking crankshafts.
Good to someone has persisted with the idea and made it a winner.

Geoff.

Geoff,
Landcruiser HDJ78,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

Lifetime Member
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Classifieds: Landcruiser 16x8 Rims,

AnswerID: 89413

Follow Up By: reeceb - Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 23:59

Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 at 23:59

Hi Geoff, Were these units fitted to naturally aspirated diesel engines or turbocharged ones because this system only works on turbocharged engines using the boost pressure to regulate the amount of vapour injected...Reece

FollowupID: 348292

Reply By: Member - Geoff M (NSW) - Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 00:50

Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 00:50

Hello Reece,
Can't remember if the system was turbo or normally aspirated.
The part that appeals to me is someone didn't give up. Just saw an answer from a different angle.

Geoff.

Geoff,
Landcruiser HDJ78,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.

Lifetime Member
My Profile My Blog Send Message
Classifieds: Landcruiser 16x8 Rims,

AnswerID: 89424

Reply By: Member - David C (QLD) - Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 08:13

Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 08:13

The system can be used on either normally aspirated or turbo systems depending on what engine you have and how you design the system. Fitting to a NA engine will result in only small gains. Fitting to Turbo engines will result in huge gains. The LPG also has the effect of cooling the charge air as well as making it more combustable which benifits turbo engines further. All the ones I have seen are on turbo's as the end result is to have an engine providing the highest amount of torque and power possible and this is usually achieved first with a turbo.

Read Mr Sharkey's page for more information on how to set up and expected results.

Regards
David

AnswerID: 89433

Follow Up By: reeceb - Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 13:03

Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 at 13:03

Hi David, When I refer to "this system" I mean the system we have installed and been testing for 2 months now. Once again the amount of vapour introduced into the engine is governed by the boost pressure in which NA engines have none, the more boost the more vapour introduced. Refering to Mr Sharkey's web site, It,s more like the second type of system but without all of the sensors and controls meaning ease of installation....Reece

FollowupID: 348322

Reply By: Austravel - Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 10:29

Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 10:29

Hi,

Sounds interesting. How much will the kits for a 6 cyl 4x4 cost??? How much gas do you think you would use per tank of fuel eg 180 litres of diesel to ??? LPG???? And lastly will it be legal and the vehicle insurable??
Thanks, I'm keen to look further into this so hope you can answer the above questions.

AnswerID: 89545

Follow Up By: reeceb - Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 19:55

Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 19:55

Hi, the kits will be roughly the same price for all vehicles with the exception of two stroke diesel engines where their is more components. The thing is they are not just available for trucks 4x4's and commercial vehicles, They can be used on tractors, bulldozers, excavators, anything with a turbo-diesel motors even boats. I can't comment on the price at this stage but as a kit you will get plenty of change out of $2000. We will have different vehicles fitted out with these kits over time and the results will be posted. As far as the amount you would use, The Mercedes prime mover I wrote about earlier used a 9kg bottle from Melbourne to Sydney and back again and that was pulling a trailer with 20 ton on!. The legalities are still being investigated through the proper authorities like the ALPGA but the word at this stage is because it is low pressure, no licence or certificates are necessary. Its like hooking your BBQ up or your gas fridge in your caravan. The goal is to have the kits available for sale here in Australia and New Zealand by the end of February next year with all of the legalities sorted out by then also, thanks...Reece

FollowupID: 348454

Reply By: Cabbage - Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 21:00

Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 21:00

While I don't wish to rain on anybodys parade or cause trouble I would suggest thta you look at Australian Standards AS/NZ 1425 before you attempt this type of modification.
LPG is a very useful commodity to all of us but it can also be very dangerous if not handled correctly.
Yeh,I know ,"Ive been usin it for years ,what would you know?"
There was a company here fitting gas onto 4x4,s for a while , but had to close down.
Don't get me wrong,it can work quite well but , it needs a bit more knowledge than the average person has.
Some facts about LPG & propane:
BBQ gas is normally propane
Autogas is usually a 50/50 mix of propane and butane
Autogas CANNOT be used in BBQ's etc
The expansion coefficient of these gases is about 270:1
LPG or its various components is heavier than air
By all means have a look at this or other kits that are available but unless you have the necessary knowledge and abilities don't mess with it.
If you still want to mess, get out in the middle of a paddock somewhere so no one else gets hurt.
If you need some technical info about gas or gas systems email either of these

gastrain@bigpond.net.au
cabbage@froggy.com.au

Anyway, Have a good christmas and a better new year.

Leave nothing but footprints & take nothing but photos

Reply 1 of 5 posted 20 Dec 2004 at 16:21 - (AnswerID: 89609)
Cabbage replied to the question

Sorry forgot to post the references

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vib04.pdf#search='australian+standards+AS1425'

http://www.thelaw.tas.gov.au/tocview/index.w3p;cond=;doc_id=+163+1998+AT@EN+20041128000000;histon=;prompt=;rec=-1;term=

http://www.nrm.qld.gov.au/mines/petroleum/pdf/licence_notes.pdf

AnswerID: 89641

Follow Up By: reeceb - Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 22:10

Monday, Dec 20, 2004 at 22:10

I am describing a system that has a US patent #, was developed by people that know more about gas and engines than we will ever know, is being installed on hundreds of vehicles a week in the states with 16 dealers nationwide, and is going to be available here within three months. it does not run on auto LPG, it uses propane the same that runs your BBQ. it is injected at low pressure (not high pressure like auto LPG) We talked to the Office of Gas Safety and the Australian Liquified Petroleum Gas Association and they both said because it is a low pressure system, they had no problems with it, as long as the bottle and the hose between the bottle and the regulator were approved items. We are using this system right now and we are so pleased with its performance, we want everyone to know about it. No gimmicks, no rain and no trouble, just more out of your diesel fuel and less impact on the environment....thanks for your informative input Cabbage?!.............Reece

FollowupID: 348472

Reply By: tcp_ip_boy - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 14:04

Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 14:04

I dunno..... Is it just me, or can I see another 'Roo Deterrant', or 'Rust Stopping' device here? One of those things that all sorts of people say works, but without any scientific data to back up the claims?

I remember about a year ago some nutter up in Queensland took out a patent in the US for a power supply that needed no fuel - it was basically a perpetual motion machine. I think heaps of people put money towards it as well! Actually, now that I think about it, taking money from stupid people is probably a good idea....

Any way, whenever I see a product spruiked by some sales/ marketing/ evangelist telling me how good it is, or will be, I get a tad worried....

Chump

AnswerID: 89748

Follow Up By: reeceb - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 20:52

Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 20:52

Look, I found a product that did what it said it would do. Now I want to make it available down under for all to benefit from. without giving too much away yet, check out US Patent #6422015 from the following link. The R&D has been done for years.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6422015.WKU.&OS=PN/6422015&RS=PN/6422015

FollowupID: 348601

Follow Up By: prado_95 - Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 22:21

Tuesday, Dec 21, 2004 at 22:21

While I have no interest in this particular product, people can rest assured that the concept does work.

The doubters should recall the use of LPG assist for the (diesel) concrete trucks that serviced the Blue Mountains arround Emu Plains in the late 70's / early 80's. See Truck & Bus of that erra for details. The goal was increased economy and power. Both objectives have been met.

They were crude systems, but functional and effective. The latest versions are now fully electronically controlled, as are the engines whuch they are attached.

Use this sort of technology to save some fossil fuels, save some $$ and gain some additional power. Now of course you could add a 'diesel tuning module' and pick up some further gains.

Dave

FollowupID: 348616

Follow Up By: tcp_ip_boy - Wednesday, Dec 22, 2004 at 08:48

Wednesday, Dec 22, 2004 at 08:48

I'm not saying it doesn't work. I am just saying I am wary of claims like this. There have been so many useless and down-right dangerous things patented, and spruiked by evangelists, to make people think twice.

It sounds like a great idea - I drive a diesel myself, and when it goes main-stream, I will look at it. But not until some sort of Australian Standard becomes involved. I just don't like the idea of a gas bottle being strapped to my car, and not necessarily connected by a professional.

I deal with sales people all day every day - I may be a little too wary. Thats just me.

Chump

FollowupID: 348648