Laura B posted:

they hadnt shut it from the end we had entered...which was 24km back...we were on our way to Nerriga and wer not going to go back that 24km to get to yalwal and go another 40-50km to get to the same road we were 8km from.....

laura

Mike Harding posted:

>Ok..so it was locked for safety reasons...so why the bleeping
>heck did you keep going??

Grow up mate. "They" usually site "safety reasons" for imposing more and more restrictions upon us - if not safety you can bet it'll be something else they're doing "for our own good".

My understanding from a post on this forum a few weeks ago was that it is the current practice of NSW parks to close access to state forests as much as possible. Bring out the angle grinders say I.

Mike Harding

PS. I don't want any "comeback on the authorities" I just want to be able to travel around my own country and make my own decisions about where is "safe" for me to travel. My mum stopped looking after me a looong time ago.

signman posted:

G'day Mike
There's lotsa people, with lotsa attitude, spending lotsa time finding ways to denegrate (sp??) the 4wd fraternity.
The 'angle grinder' attitude of yourself, and the 'I don't need a permit' from others are giving those lobbyist a field day!!

Laura B posted:

so in that same situation you'd go back the 24km then the other40-50km to get to the same spot we were 8km from......i doubt it!! He told us he was in a hurry and couldnt drive the 8km to unlock it for us......

Laura

p.s....if anything went wrong we would be blaming ourselves and not authorities...they did not make us do it..we did bacause of the extra km and cos there was no sign at the beginning of the track saying that it was shut we thought we'd go...knowing that these tracks are supposed to be open
LB

Laura B posted:

Angles grinders arent needed!!LOL!! Just keys..so we are going to join our mates club.

Its truely rediculous out this way...Yalwal is going to be shut yet across the road is all open!!! which i guess is a good thing...other tracks to do!!

LAura

Mike Harding posted:

We tried rational discussion on the firearms issue back in 1996 - it didn't work then and it won't work, with these people, now - they are zealots and will have _no problem_ in convincing the apathetic and self obsessed ("I'm alright Jack - this doesn't affect me") Australian public that anyone who doesn't think living in a city and watching TV whilst paying Safeway to slaughter your food (somewhere you can't see - 'cause we all want to believe a kilo of sausages didn't really use to be an animal) but who wishes to drive some dreadful, fuel guzzling, huge, forest destroying vehicle into those beautiful, pristine places just like Walt Disney portrays is a crazed loony who, obviously, should be locked out of the forest and, ideally, prevented from owning a 4WD at all - after all, you don't _need_ one, do you?

We (firearms owners) put 150,000 people onto the streets of Melbourne in 1996 and we failed to stop the legislation - whatever makes you think anything the "4WD lobby" (what bloody lobby?) does will change it. Hell! they don't even need legislation this time they already have it in place, they'll just keep on Gazetting more and more tracks and you won't even notice.

You are _never_ going to convince the public that 4WDs and people like us are a "good thing" so the only way left is to fight and tell them to stuff their rules both in practice (angle grinder man) and politically by pressure on individual MPs (they hate the idea of loosing their cushy jobs) and aligning with other groups under threat - shooters, fishermen, whoever. If we stand alone we'll fail - together we will win. Where was the 4WD fraternity in 1996? How many of you were saying back then "Restricting these people's access to firearms is a "good thing""? Divide and conquer is the practice of government and it works well but lets see them try it against something like 3 million people.

Bad laws should be broken – not meekly obeyed.

The French have just changed legislation by street protest - when I lived in the UK the POMs did the same with the Poll Tax (and many other unjust laws in history) it's about time Australians were prepared to stand up for their rights. However, I suspect I’m whistling in the wind.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

Laura B posted:

some rules can just go and jump...the guy didnt give 2 hoots today about our massive hike back...plus its not as if we made our own track....it was already there!!!

we just did what hundreds of other 4b owners have done over the past few years...

now if the track was locked from both ends...well that would be different...we wouldnt have gone!!

Laura

Gramps (NSW) posted:

Mike,

You're pushing all my buttons! Which way to the barricades, brother?

Regards

Patrolman Pat posted:

"so the only way left is to fight and tell them to stuff their rules both in practice (angle grinder man) "

I hope you don't apply the same logic to your objection to the gun legislation. A loose canon with a gun (pardon the pun) is not a nice thought. Just because you don't like the laws doesn't mean you can disregard them.

Mike Harding posted:

>Just because you don't like the laws doesn't mean you
>can disregard them.

And your suggestion for changing bad legislation is...?

Mike Harding

PS. Examples of the effectiveness of your suggestion(s) would be appreciated.

Mad Dog (Australia) posted:

It was a great victory for the french people Mike and the Solomon Islanders kicked their PM's backside, just shows what can be done when people stick together.

Gramps (NSW) posted:

Hands up, anyone on this forum who has NEVER broken the law in any way.

I'll count because it should be a damn easy job. May have to get all the way to ONE !!!

(Legal profession, police, ATO employees, politicians, accountants, doctors and other 'professionals' excepted - because it is a fundamental requirement of their employment) LOLOL

Mad Dog (Australia) posted:

Should Catholic Priests be included in your list Gramps.

Truckster (Vic) posted:

I think Ray hit it on the head

"WHEN PEOPLE STICK TOGETHER"

that just doesnt happen... its like in life of brian when brian gets arrested.. they all sit there and talk bleep , and nothing gets done.

Gramps (NSW) posted:

Whoops! Thanks Ray, how forgetful of me. Please add priests/ministers/rabbis/whatever of ANY religion or cult.

Regards

Patrolman Pat posted:

And your suggestion for changing bad legislation is...?

Mike Harding

PS. Examples of the effectiveness of your suggestion(s) would be appreciated.

Many moons ago when I rode motorbikes the local council removed the free bike parks (about 10 in total) and said bikers should pay to park the same as cars. The motorbike clubs got together and one Saturday morning several hundred bikes had a convoy into town and we all parked one bike per car park spot, paid the appropriate fee, and had a nice rally in the park. The town was in chaos as there wasn't enough car parks for the Saturday morning shoppers, the free bike parks were reinstated the following week.

Hardly a huge blow for democracy but it worked.

Member - Bware (Tweed Valley) posted:

Right on, Mr Harding. This is the way of NSW atleast; locking everything up, claiming it's only temporary, then all side tracks stay closed, charging for entry, no fires allowed..... But that's OK because THEY know what is best for us free thinkers, right? If you think that governments AREN'T trying to slowly strip us of our rights and freedom to think for ourselves you are an ostrich with your head in the sand.
30 years ago my Dad would take us camping to places that were free (they were all free), you could camp on crown land, light fires etc. Now a week in a NP costs the same as a holiday unit did only a couple of years ago. Getting back to basics should be a right,not a privilege.
There is a mentality that thinks that the 'powers that be' need to legislate everything to stop the 'bad people' from doing the wrong thing. I understand where they are coming from; the problem is they don't understand where we are coming from. Laws don't stop 'bad people', they only punish the majority. 'Bad people do burn-outs down our street so let's put in speed humps'. Well bad people use the speed humps as launching ramps and the good drivers have to put up with the speed-humps even though they drive through suburban streets slowly anyway. Where does the 'legislation' mentality end? Maybe you've heard on the news today about the 'let's direct debit people on any sort of social security so we know they can't spend it on things WE don't think they should spend it on'. Things aren't getting better. It's a sad fact that Australians at this point seem to just bend over and take it up the sphinctre

Shaker posted:

So, enlighten me ...... why should motor bikes park free?

Mad Dog (Australia) posted:

Well that's it!

Redback posted:

Remember this quote

We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other and fight to defend our rights and liberties.

That fight against an unfair law/tax worked, as Ray said, "just shows what can be done when people stick together"



Baz.

Member - Doug T (QLD) posted:

signman
Mate I have not read all the answers for this post but as I take it they were already into the nogo zone from the other end where the gate was not yet locked , So under that situation when they got the locked gate and got around that locked gate they were then OUT of the no go zone and back on normal public roads , I would have done the same ,LOGICS Now you can go ahead and shoot me down too

Laura B posted:

thanks mate....if they really wanted to stop s they could have...we didnt do ''damage" that others talk of and obviously have no idea of how we respect our back yard seeing that we dont want it locked up.....

we werent doing anything illegal just doing what everyone else would have done in the same situation!!

Laura

Laura B posted:

we were 8km from where we needed to get to...well the road atleast and if we turned back it would have been atleast and extra 60km to get to the same spot all for a gates tht has a track around it....if they were going t lock it why not from the beginnning as well!!

Laura

Mike Harding posted:

>Please respect the locked gates as you may ruin the opportunity
>for the rest of us next time.

A decision in regard to whether a track is to be open or closed should be taken from an objective and rational perspective such as the degree of track damage in winter and never from an emotional and irrationally punitive viewpoint such as how many people ignored the decision to close it.

Mike Harding

Laura B posted:

so what is it - break the rules or obey them...or is it for you - break the rules but for everyone else - obey them????

Laura

Member - Bware (Tweed Valley) posted:

Hey Laura, I know where you're coming from. I've driven into state forests and national parks on quite a few occasions and found 3/4 of the way through the road is closed but they don't put any signs up at the entrance to the park so that you don't waste your time, fuel, planned day out, etc.

944runner posted:

Mike I do agree it she be a rational decision but when a track has been closed by authorities and they can then go back and see that people have gone around locked gates to get in, what chance do you think that it will get opened again after that??
As for me I have never been through or around a locked gate and never will!! If it is locked it is locked for a reason.

944runner posted:

Mike I do agree it should be a rational decision but when a track has been closed by authorities and they can then go back and see that people have gone around locked gates to get in, what chance do you think that it will get opened again after that??
As for me I have never been through or around a locked gate and never will!! If it is locked it is locked for a reason.

944runner posted:

Mike I do agree it should be a rational decision but when a track has been closed by authorities and they can then go back and see that people have gone around locked gates to get in, what chance do you think that it will get opened again after that??
As for me I have never been through or around a locked gate and never will!! If it is locked it is locked for a reason.

Gramps (NSW) posted:

LOL have you got the stutters 944runner, or just a twitchy 'trigger' finger :))))

Mike Harding posted:

>Mike I do agree it should be a rational decision but when a track has
>been closed by authorities and they can then go back and see that
>people have gone around locked gates to get in, what chance do you
>think that it will get opened again after that??

94runner – I think the above demonstrates a fundamental flaw in your approach to this issue: what you describe is the approach a school headmaster might apply to a situation but it is not appropriate for government to treat us like naughty children and I think the gradual trend of the public to accept such a technique is extremely unhealthy indeed.

Do not loose sight of the fact that government does not own this land - WE DO! And we permit government to manage it for us for all sorts of sensible practical reasons but we do not give them carte blanche to walk all over us simply because they believe they can.

We do not need to answer to government – government needs to (and must be made to) answer to us.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

Laura B posted:

it doesnt matter what we do - its being locked again!!

thats it...

all over red rover...

Laura

Mike Harding posted:

Only if you allow it to be...?

Laura B posted:

Thankyou - finally someone who understands!!

Laura

Laura B posted:

we would have turned around too...

we had the same sign...road closed xxx km.....no number....this time the gate was locked...we went on the track that was already there...there was no way we were going to turn around! Not after taking over and hour to do the 24km!!!

Laura

Laura B posted:

the gate was locked up the top...not the bottom....just incase people read that wrong too!!!LOL

LB

Laura B posted:

The council guy took down our rego so if a letter sent to us then all hell will break lose on my part...boy oh boy will they cop it!!

Good to see we arent the only ones not following the stream!!

Laura

Laura B posted:

Im going into Council to talk this over tomorrow and find out for sure weather we would be facing a locked gate up the top on sunday...which the other day were told it would be open......my biggest problem is if they are going to shut and lock the top gate why not the bottom one as well - which would be where we would be starting on sunday.....

the track is only good for the hill climb and then trning around and going back down....so no i would not only because the track is not worth it to get there and have to turn around - if yourve done this track you could see my point..

the track has been severely graded and would not bother to do it on sunday...which im glad we did yesturday because it would be a real let down!!honest!! it took over an hour to do 24km on flat terrain - not worth the effort....

plus we are trying to get a key off our friends club - just in case!!

hypothetical enough i hope.....

Laura

Laura B posted:

going to talk in person because i would be shunted off on the phone like all the other times.....im going to sit there and wait!!!! well thats the plan.....

Laura

Shaker posted:

Maybe when you passed them they were on their way to lock the other gate!