Member - Doug T (QLD) posted:

Hi Wayne
I'm not directing this comment to Laura or any other gas/petrol user but when one really thinks hard about the fuel types available for 4x4s I would have to say Diesel every time.

Laura B posted:

we've had it tuned to Gas, did this after we bought it...

it doesnt do it on petrol but we dont use petrol all that often

i have heard of there being a filter so will get Nathan to check it today...

its just odd -

Laura

V8Diesel posted:

Have a quick search of the archives lads. See how many problems there have been with injectors, pumps leaking, quality of fuel issues for diesels etc. Hundreds of posts - WAY more than LPG issues (though not really a fair comparison I know). Hate to break the news but diesels are machines too and stuff up just like eveything else. Also look into the costs involved in ANY form of repair to do with diesel.

Diesel or petrol / LPG? I honestly don't care either way, have owned lots of both and know the ups and downs of each and will most likely be buying a diesel next time for a number of reasons, but in all honesty the petrol / LPG bashing / misinformation campaign waged here wears a bit thin after a while.

Diesel engines have a list of strong benefits, but they also have their downsides such as .......

1. Comparitively expensive to buy
2. Very expensive to fix
3. Noisy
4. Smelly
5. Slow - often painfully so.
6. Twice the servicing in general (5K vs 10K)

Some folks like a bit of mumbo under the right foot and don't mind paying a bit more for it in fuel. Some don't know the difference and probably don't care. Some are quite happy to plod along and enjoy the better economy of a diesel. Some folks do regular trips through the remote outback, but some don't and are quite happy to enjoy the rest of Australia. There are plenty of vehicles doing remote travels that run on petrol.

Always been a bit of a fan of diesel Landcruisers, however I bought a 100 series on LPG by chance (divorce settlement - offer simply far too good to refuse) and have to say it is good, real good. Become a bit of a convert. After all's said and done, I still seem to be able to go where all my mates diesels go (and some where they won't), can't say I've had a problem yet (touch wood). I also get a kick out of the 165kW's compared to their 96. I bought it already converted and find it very cheap to run.

Re: the tuning. Modern engines run very well on LPG, at least mine does. It is difficult to tell the difference. If anything, it runs smoother on gas.

It's all horse for courses. Glad your happy. So are heaps of LPG users too. We are not all ill informed fools.

Member - Andrew W (SA) posted:

1. similarly expensive to buy
2. like most engines the cost of fixing them goes up with the sophistication and technology - simple diesel engines are as inexpensive to fix but no where near as rare as simple petrol engines these days
3. properly looked after they are a little noisier but not in today's sound insulated cabins
4. only if not properly serviced - certainly not at all if you run on biodiesel
5. low powered diesel is as slow as low powered petrol
6. regular maintenance is as important as with petrol engines

V8Diesel posted:

Andrew, I disagree with you and stand by my previous reply. Take the Landcruiser 100 series for example.

1. wrong by roughly $10K new, more so secondhand.
2. try buying or repairing a TD. I can get a low km 1FZ for $1,500. Not even worth taking the head off a diesel for that kind of price. Just did a heap of work to a Toyota Hilux 3L 2.8 diesel myself a few weeks back. I could buy a brand new 5.7 Chev V8 in a crate or two V6 Pajero motors for the price of a 4 cyl Toyota recon. That's NEW too. In real world (not paper) there is no comparison.
3. Diesel is noisier / smellier. Don't really matter unless the wife has a say in the purchase, but that's often the case.
4. See above.
5. Care to put some money on that? How bout a Toyota 2H 4.0l diesel vs a 2F 4.0l(?) petrol - can't get fairer than that. Fits the criteria. Owned both myself. I know which one I'll stake my house on if you want to compare speed.
6. Didn't say it wasn't important, just require twice as much.

Either way mate, so be it. Not worth having a bitching match over. I just get a bit browned off sometimes with the propaganda. As long as you're getting out and about and having fun, what's it matter anyway. Happy travels.

V8Diesel posted:

Heard that too.

Dave(NSW) posted:

I spent today delivering AutoGas to BP servo's in Sydney to day! All gas was loaded out of Shell!!!!

awill4x4 posted:

Not strictly true Fisho. LPG is mixture of Propane and Butane. Australia has an over abundance of Butane and not enough Propane so we export Butane and import the needed Propane.

Below is a partial extract on LPG supplies from the LPG industry here in Australia.

"HISTORY

To understand the fundamentals of LPG prices in Australia, it is necessary to have an appreciation of the history of LPG supply in Australia and an awareness of the current international and local LPG supply situation.

Prior to 1970, only relatively small volumes of LPG were available from oil refineries. However in 1970, the Bass Strait producers decided to extract LPG from the oil and gas streams and constructed a world scale LPG fractionation plant at Westernport, Victoria. Local LPG demand in Australia was not adequate to economically justify such a plant but adequate demand from Asia underpinned its economics. Thus the plant was built originally as an export facility.

However, with the growth in local demand over the following decades, the producers installed more local distribution facilities. Local demand now absorbs approximately 65% of Bass Strait LPG supply and it is now predominantly butane (which is surplus to local requirements) that is exported from Bass Strait. Propane is more widely demanded due to its traditional use as a heating fuel in Australia.

Demand has now grown to such a point where local propane supplies on the Australian East Coast need to be supplemented and over 300,000 tonnes per year is imported.

Before May 1974 the price for LPG was based solely on commercial negotiations. From May 1974 until 31 December 1990 the maximum wholesale price of LPG was set by a number of government bodies including the Prices Justification Tribunal (PJT), the Petroleum Products Pricing Authority (PPPA) and the Prices Surveillance Authority (PSA)."

fisho64 posted:

That could well be true, Im not familiar with the East Coast setup. But here on the west coast I see lots of Gas tankers arriving in Dampier but I am unaware of any discharges? All of WA's gas is piped via the Dampier-Bunbury gas pipeline. I am not sure where propane is added to the supply here?

awill4x4 posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong Fisho, but wouldn't the majority of that be natural gas rather than Propane/Butane? I know the Northwest Shelf has vast reserves of Natural Gas and lots of it heads to Asia.
I'd hazard a guess that the actual size of the LPG market in WA (vehicle use) would be tiny in comparison to the Eastern states, especially Victoria. I think the infrastructure already in place over here makes it a very competitive market. LPG installers here are all talking about lead times in months now and all the components are in short supply.
Regards Andrew.

fisho64 posted:

QUOTE
How much LPG is produced in Australia?

During 2000 Australia produced 3.3 million tonnes of LPG.
Approximately 78 per cent (2.6 million tonnes) of Australia's LPG was sourced directly from underground reservoirs, generally as an associated product of crude oil and natural gas production. This is known as naturally occurring LPG.
The remaining 22 per cent (0.7 million tonnes) of Australia's LPG production is extracted from crude oil during the refining process at eight refineries located near Australia's major mainland cities. LPG is produced when crude oil is heated and when reformers produce petrol. It is likely that refinery production of LPG will rise as the market share of higher octane petrol increases. More LPG is produced by refinery reformers as the octane requirement of petrol produced increases.
Australia's naturally occurring LPG is sourced predominantly from Bass Strait (offshore Victoria), the North West Shelf (offshore Western Australia) and the Cooper-Eromanga Basin (in central Australia).
The major companies involved in naturally occurring LPG production in Australia are Esso, BHP Billiton, Woodside and Santos whilst the companies involved in refinery production of LPG are Mobil, Shell, BP and Caltex.
What is the level of Australian demand for LPG?

LPG accounts for about 2 per cent of Australia's energy needs.
Total Australian sales of LPG during 2000 was 2.3 million tonnes (consisting of 1.9 million tonnes locally produced and 0.4 million tonnes imported).
Approximately 60 per cent of Australian LPG sales were for automotive use with the balance used for domestic purposes.
The ALPGA has estimated that LPG has the third largest transport fuel market share, other than petrol and diesel, and estimate LPG will account for 8 per cent of all road transport usage by 2010.
How much LPG does Australia export and import?

Australia trades in LPG on world markets. During 2000 Australia exported 1.4 million tonnes of LPG (ie: around 43 per cent of total production) mainly from Western Australia, with the largest markets being Japan and China. During the same period, Australia also imported 0.4m tonnes of LPG (ie: around 17 per cent of total consumption), mainly from Saudi Arabia.
There is a shortage of propane in the eastern states and imports are therefore necessary. Autogas demand exceeds refinery autogas production in the Eastern States. New South Wales and Queensland are heavily dependent on imported LPG. However, propane alone cannot be economically shipped from Western Australia to the eastern states. It is more cost effective for Western Australian production of both propane and butane to be exported, with propane specific cargoes being imported to meet demand in New South Wales and Queensland.
Propane and butane are separately produced and stored, then exported from the North West Shelf in separate tanks on single shipments (a normal world market situation). The eastern states require only propane and have bulk delivery and storage facilities for propane only. This situation underlies why it is more cost effective for North West Shelf LPG producers to ship their products for export than to sell it to markets in the eastern states.
Unquote

Its only the East Coast that has a prob with propane according to this. The gas is processed to LPG for transportation from WA.

awill4x4 posted:

Thank you for that extra information Fisho. I wasn't aware it was LPG being exported from the North West Shelf and that's an excellent article about the why's and wherefore's of WA gas production and export.
Regards Andrew.

fisho64 posted:

the bit I copied and pasted was longer than I thought!
But the gas production market is completely separate WA to the satelite states.