CHRIS UREN replied:

Sorry mate, but I would agree with Derek.
Its your responsibility to verify these points before making your purchase.
Derek would have the probability of not being able to return a specially ordered part from ARB, specially ordered meaning a part or kit which he would not normally keep in stock, so then he would be stuck with a kit that until now he has not needed to keep in stock.
IMHO it is unfair of you to expect Derek to do so.

Just my opinion

Cheers, Chris

Snowbunny replied:

You have stated in one of your out bursts regarding Derek, that you are not very capable of things electrcal......then why the hell didnt you got to an auto electrician in the first place!! Personally I think you've shot yourself in the foot, by putting a post like this one up?? take care in the future.

Wizard1 replied:

Sour grapes I suppose. We'll see how long this post stays here before the moderator removes the ability of forum members and visitors to get information be it good or bad on suppliers of goods and services to the RV and 4WD faternity.

Why wouldn't you have gone to someone like ARB or TJM. I had a dual battery system and several other accessories fitted by ARB in Osbourne Park, You couldn't ask for a better bunch of customer focussed people.

True story. Got the Prado home after having an ARB dual battery system fitted. In fact they fitted a Narva plug as well as using the existing Toyota power plug in the rear free of charge. Mind you mine is a 95 series TD and didn't need any componets moved. Did a test on the power plugs at the rear by hooking a light up, bang goes the fuse. I ring them up, furious I now had to drive back to Osbourne Park from Swanbourne, no they came to me instead, now that's service.

I never deal with anyone to do with my vehicle that I can't speak to face to face or know I can get nation wide warranty backup such as ARB and TJM. Yes they might cost a bit more but less drama later on.

Buyer beware!

Outnabout David (SA) replied:

Mate,

I think you are being a bit harsh. Most Prados and vehicles for that matter require re=locating componenets. If the resivior was moved your power steering would still be covered under warranty unless they could prove that the movement contributed to the failure. Ie if you fitted it upside down and let the oil run out it would not be covered by warranty.
No doubt you have the bleeps on Derek and went to another place and told them the story. Obviously they will bag the competitors product to push their own product.

I have seen a lot of battery setups and they all seem pretty much the same to me as far as fit for the job.

Seems to me he advised you correctly. If you couldn't fit the kit then gety an electrician. You didn't do that but then appears you went and had the job done somewhere else anyway.

Doesn't quite make sense.

Can't wait to here the other side of the story.

Bottom line is that maybe you should have research everything properly in the first place. In have never dealt with Derek myself so have no interest but over the years in business I have come accross many instances where customers think they are hard done by. Different time, different place, differnet product......same story.... customers are not necessarily always right and sometimes embelish the story a bit.
Not saying this ids necessarily true in this case but I would like to see Derks response.

GeoffMc replied:

I purchased a kit from Derek for my 4.0L petrol Prado and following his instructions, took me a little over 2 hours to install. Couldn't be happier. The vehicle has now done approx 15K on some pretty ordinary roads..... (Bloomfield Track. Battlecamp Road and Cape York Peninsula) and the battery tray is just fine.

You seem to be hung up on the power steering issue and associated warranty. I'd be more worried about not having warranty on your entire charging/electrical system going by your interpretation of the Toyota warranty.

What about ..."Nevertheless I like to research a bit about what I need so I found the ExplorOz site pretty valuable". Just sounds to me like you got "cold feet" after you spent your money and now want your money back. I'm with ABR on this one.

PS: No affiliation with ABR except being a satisfied customer.

Member - Captain (WA) replied:

So let me get this right;

1. you make enquires about an aftermarket kit battery kit.

2. You get multiple emails from ABR giving advise before you make a purchase.

3. You decide to make a purchase and find the kit comes with detailed instructions.

4. Then you think about warranty implications and regret your purchase

5. A refund is refuted because the goods supplied were fit and proper, YOU just changed your mind.

6. You then go to another aftermarket supplier (ARB) who give different advise, but you prefer this advise over ABR advise,

7. You then denigrate the products supplied as being cheap and not fit for purpose, yet you have already said you are not mechanically proficient so on what basis did you conclude ARB advise was better than ABR advise?

Seems to me a case of sour grapes after changing your mind and expecting a refund from a small supplier who has done everything right and spent considerable time answering your questions and then supplying a product as requested. Did you expect him to foot the postage bill too?

Did you discuss with Derek a restocking fee, virtually all suppliers I deal with charge a 15-25% restocking fee if I simply order the wrong product.

Captain

Noldi replied:

Sour grapes or not, I would not like to find Ive been overcharged by 40% for the same items.
Thanks for the feedback, I am looking at a battery system myself.

Rgds
Ian

Member -Signman replied:

I don't know you, or Derek or all the facts of the dispute..
However, if you have an issue with any goods or services that can't be resolved amicably by the supplier/provider- then why not take the dispute to a tribunal.

Max - Sydney replied:

Guys

Have just had a little think about this over lunch, and am inclined to be sympathetic to JustOnTour. I would raise three thoughts:

1. Toyota cannot refuse warranty on anything that has been not been damaged by your action, no matter what they tell you. I'd ring RACWA and talk it through with a tech bloke and get an idea of how much you REALLY expose yourself to.

2. If you do indeed make a realistic impact on your warranty, then Derek had a responsibility to tell you that would happen unless it was installed by a tradesman. As I understand it you made clear you were an enthusiast asking for his advice and he should have told you that it does impact the warranty (if it does). If so, why not ring consumer affairs (preferably in Brisbane if you can afford the long phone call), tell them the story and ask them what recourse you have. I suspect that not telling you about warranty compromise would be incorrect description of the goods you bought and remediable under the Trade Practices Act.)

3. Every time you ask a vendor of anything about goods you just bought from a competitor you will be told you have a disaster on your hands. Just be sceptical about that advice. Again talk to RACWA - they won't be able to recommend brands but they may be able to put you on to someone objective.

Good luck
Max

Gajm replied:

I have bought a few things from Derek, and have been more than happy with the service. His prices were a lot cheaper...but I did my homework first, not after. I have to agree that if you simply changed your mind then you have to wear it.

I am sure there isn't one of us on here that has bought something and then found it cheaper somewhere else...it's one of Murphy's laws. Just do your homework first in future.

Member - John (Vic) replied:

Fitting of almost any other brand of duel battery kit will require shifting of original components such as power steering etc.

Why do you think you may have a warranty issue with Toyota if you fitted ABR's set up and not have the same concerns with fitting a ARB or TJM etc???

DaveNQ replied:

I think you should have done a little more research. However, i also think that if you originally expressed concerns about the fitting of the system and he told you it was easy, he should be prepared to have the items returned. I believe you are both at fault for lack of communication.

Shawsie (Bris) replied:

I think that the real issue is that the Dereks battery system voided the warranty on those items modified to fit the components supplied (as per the Toyo fine print), and maybe this was not conveyed to the customer or the customer did not think to ask. A lack of communication on both parts however, selling a system knowing that it may impact your warranty IMHO certainly means that you should be prepared for a refund if the case (by case) presents itself - as should all bonafide retailers.

I am a customer of Dereks and am very happy with my isolator.

Redback replied:

I'm not going to get into your gripe, but i can say this NO COMPANY selling goods can refuse you the return of goods, if you aren't happy with a product and wish to return it they must under the law give you your money back, it is also against the law to say "no refunds" on any product.

If it has been damaged that's another story.

Baz.

The Landy replied:

I don’t expect Derek will necessarily respond in a public forum on a dispute between his business and a customer; my experience with him has been positive both on service and price.

It isn’t Derek’s responsibility to ensure that the buyers don’t void any warranties on the vehicle as he isn’t a party to the warranty. In terms of refunds I don’t see that a refund is due and the law appears to support this.

The following relates to consumers rights. When you read this it isn’t hard too form an opinion that Derek’s reputation has been unfairly questioned in this instance.

The Trade Practices Act implies certain promises into all consumer contracts. These statutory warranties and statutory conditions are referred to as implied warranties or statutory rights. They include the right to refund if goods are defective.

When a consumer buys goods or services a statutory warranty is implied regardless of cost, country of origin or manufacturer. Statutory warranties cannot be overwritten or signed away. They give the consumer basic rights:

that the goods are fit to be sold

that the item is fit for the purpose it is intended for

that the item matches the description or sample given

That services are carried out with due skill and care.

Do retailers have to give refunds?

Yes, if:

goods are faulty or they become faulty soon after buying them

goods are unfit for their purpose—which means they won't do what the consumer reasonably expected them to

goods don't match the retailer's description or sample

Retailers have offered any voluntary, or extra, warranties or promises about refunds.

No, if:

customers simply change their minds after buying the goods

customers have discovered they can buy the goods more cheaply or on better terms somewhere else

the customer knew about a particular fault before buying the goods

The customer damaged the goods.

Member No 1 replied:

The seller does not have to give back your money unless its not fit for its purpose...go buy some pink jocks and see if you get your money back

albeit some do though? its a method used to keep cutomers coming through the door.....maybe dereck doesnt need to or even want to (cos he sees a pain in the but and this is way to terminate it)...and thats his call

Buyer beware & tough luck i say...go to KMart next time... they give you back your money

Ron George replied:

Don`t you just love the pedantic little one`s of this world… My goodness gracious… fiddle de dee… Aye JustOnTour …Mate it`s a crying shame you didn`t take some of your own advice before you started this exercise… Old Jungle saying… “Better to look like a fool… Than to open your mouth and confirm it”… I do hope you’ve taken the lesson on board, And I do hope you don’t let this post or any of the others put you off making contributions to this forum!!!…We need blokes like you to remind us as to how clever WE really are, & If you think that you`ve had a big stick taken to you.. Narrrrrr only a little old love tap mate!!!... Just don`t mention that you`re going to fit a Hi Clone or Fitch fuel thingy. I`m outterear… Cheese Ron.

Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) replied:

For me what this post highlights with the many varied replies is the varied expectations from a business, let alone a small business. This little ditty shows that owning a small business no matter the field is really tough and it is really hard to make everybody happy.

I must admit that with anything that I have fitted or have had fitted by different 4wd stores in the past is long , hard research. There are many forms but the best research I have found is through the 4wd club and actually see the items fitted to vehicles. It is also great to actually see the item in action and confirm that this is the best item for you. Varies 4wd shops will tell you varied information that in some cases is down and out wrong, has with any business. Warranty is always going to be an issue with any modification made and at the end of the day anytime you change the vehicle it is a risk.

JustOnTour, Sorry to hear but I hope there is a lesson learnt here and from the info you have provided I feel it is hard to make Derek responsible for this error in judgement......

Gerhardp1 replied:

I have purchased items from ABR for my dual battery installation, and I was happy with the price and the items I received, which all work perfectly.

You have made an error of judgement in your ability to carry out the required installation. there is nothing wrong with admitting this, but there is everything wrong with trying to blame Derek for your shortcoming.

Grow up, take responsibility for your error, put the kit on E-Bay or the Exploroz trader section, get $300 for it and get on with life.

Take the $250 loss, then buy the you beaut system you have found for less than $300 and you will have what you want, you'll be able to hold your head high like a man, and you'll have purchased a $200 odd experience you can tell the grandkids about.

Just keep it off this forum.

Pajman Pete (SA) replied:

No sympathy here mate. I normally don't flame other forumites, but in this instance I think you have no justification in your statements.

"ABR have no refund policy if you change your mind even for a legitimate reason."

No retailer is required to do this by law and neither should they be. Only a few choose to and they are big chains like Target. I can think of any amount of stuff I would like to have taken back after I got it home, but I was the dill with the credit card who bought it.

"that the type of isolator provided is not necessarily the best one of choice"

So what - isolator choices cause almost as many arguments on this forum as the endless Toyota/Nissan, Coopers/Bridgestone, Engel/Waeco debates. All of the commonly available ones will do the job. My choice of isolator doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the more expensive ones, but it effectively charges my batteries which is all I ask of it.

"Should you discover the goods are not what you expected..."

From what you have said they were exactly as described by Derek - you got what you ordered. So with a little more effort you find you claim that you can get a better deal elsewhere - isn't life tragic.

Pete

Member - Dunworkin (WA) replied:

I'm not going into the debate re the wrongs and the rights of this discussion however personally if I buy something, anything wether from Target, Kmart or wherever if it is faulty I will try for a refund but if for some reason I change my mind or find another better that is my bad luck, not the companies.

This from the sisterhood probably sounds too simple but if you are not sure of fitting this yourself and are worried about the warranty why not pay a bit more and get TOYOTA to fit it????? too simple??

I must point out that I had some dealingS with Derek a little while ago and found him to be extremely helpful.

Hope it all works out well in the end

Cheers

D

Member - Blue (VIC) replied:

Lets have a look at the 2003 ARB catalogue ('cause I have it handy...)

Battery tray: Not listed for Prado, lets run with your $130

Isolator/solenoid: Smart Solenoid $213

There's $343 before you buy cable @ around $15/meter say 5 metres for the prado??? $75, terminals $30, Hella plug/socket @ $30/pair, switch for the "start from aux battery(which the Redarc will also do) $19, Circuit breaker @ $30...

What have we got from ARB in 2003, most likely prices haven't gone down...

$527... I'd say you did OK...

Doggy Tease replied:

I havent bought anything from Derek, but i have asked for a quote on some stuff, and he was a bloody lot cheaper than i can get anywhere here in Perth.
I have also just asked questions of the man, and he has bent over backwards to point me in the right direction, even though he knows he won't get a sale out of it.
As far as i am concerned, i have never had a problem with Derek, or his advice, and will continue to seek out his knowledge in his specialist field.

rick.

Member - Norm C (QLD) replied:

Mmmm, a tough one.

You have clearly leapt in before doing as much research as you should have. I installed my own dual battery system (but had terminations and circuit breakes done by an auto elec), including moving components to fit stuff in. It may be daunting, but with the right research and advice it is not difficult.

The fact that you now believe you could have got the same stuff for cheaper elsewhere is your problem, even if it is true, unless Derek has guaranteed you the cheapest price and beating all competitors (which I doubt), this is your issue.

If you told Derek you use the vehicle for off roading and he sold you a battery cradle that is not fit for purpose, you have a fair claim. If you believe you are right, take him on.

If he has cut cable and done terminations to your specs, you can't expect a full refund (and you have acknowledged that).

On the other issues, you have no 'RIGHT' to a refund if the items are fit for the purpose you have described to Derek. They don't have to be the best available, just fit for purpose. You have simply changed your mind as you have got cold feet on doing the installation yourself and have other advice from another retailer (surprise, surprise).

But, given that the items (other than cable) are generic and are still in sealed bags, I'm a bit surprised Derek hasn't gritted his teeth and offered you a refund (less postage each way) on all items except the cable.

But, from the info provided, he is within his rights to refuse a refund (the battery cradle notwithstanding, depending on the purpose you told him it was for). It is a commercial decision he is entitled to make and accept the consequences of.

I've run businesses, and might have made a different decision, but that's personal choice. He has every right to make the choice he has.

By the way, under the circumstances (including your obvious frustration) you have made a pretty balanced post. Until you got to the point of wanting a refund, you have desribed very good service from Derek.

_gmd_pps replied:

If you have ordered specificly for the Prado and if the kit
was delivered for that purpose without mention or provision of the instructions upfront , and if the kit needs relocating OEM parts and you refuse to do that you
are entitled to return for full refund.

The other thing is why do you even attempt doing something when you have no clue .. saving money ?

and .. I do not like the ABR business name either .. it's a cheap shot and does tell a lot about the person running it.

have fun
gmd

Barnesy replied:

Prodigy electric brake controller from retail outlets: $357. From Derek: $177 (including postage). That's a bargain.
I shopped around, found exactly what I wanted then found the best price. You can't expect a firm selling products over the internet to give refunds because you don't know what you want.

Barnesy

Member - nrb1748 (VIC) replied:

Sharing my experience with Derek.

I purchased dual battery components from Derek a few months ago. The prices were 'right'.

I needed to double check a mounting arrangement for the dual battery controller on a Saturday afternoon.

Rang his business number. Got re directed to his mobile phone. Rang it. Derek answered. I asked my question and was given clear guidance in a very friendly manner. Great service even though outside normal business hours.

Member - John (Vic) replied:

I notice that Mr JustonTour has not responded in his continued defence to any of the comments listed in this thread since his original post????

I'm starting to wonder if this bloke is for real or did has he just "Hit and Run"????

Maybe we should call him Mr Troll instead???

Member - Arkay (SA) replied:

1. Must be a petrol Prado as my belief is that there are no internal relocations required for a 120TD Prado.
2. The standard isolator is normally about 180 amps, which is insufficient to enable you to "switch" your backup battery to start your vehicle if the normal battery dies. The minimum isolator capacity to enable a switching method is 400 amps, 600 would be better, and these are A LOT more expensive than the standard one.
The normal "emergency" methods are either to use adequately sized jumper leads correctly connected from back-up to main battery, or simply to remove the normal battery and pop the backup in its place until you get to the next garage.
3. I respect Dereks input on this site.

JustOnTour replied:

Thank you everybody for the wide interest and responses. I appreciate everybodies views and opinions.

In the end the reason for my post was simply to keep people informed so that someone in my similar position may learn from my own experiences and make appropriate judegements that are right for them.

It is is not sour grapes; it is sharing experiences so people can make informed decisions for themselves. I know what I would do second time around but I just have to put that down to one of live's experiences. I am over it. I wish Derek all the best with his business and I am happy there are many happy customers out there supporting him. I'm afraid I am no longer one of them - I personally would have felt negotiation on return the goods was the sensible solution for both if us - unfortunately Derek did not feel that way.

That is his decision and although it disappointed me I respect it. I just feel other potential customers should know this too before they purchase.

Have a happy life...

Member - Bradley replied:

hmm, i bet you are more than happy to shank someone else who requires your knowledge, in your field of profession, yet P..S and moan when you need help and advice from someone in their field - especially when you admit you have no knowledge in the area.

A guy offers what appears to be more than adequate help and advice, even offering to provide custom gear to ease the job, this is without getting paid to do the labour on the install and have the vehicle in front of him to do it easily. Did you get invoiced for x amount of labour for all the phone calls and info - NO. Sheez most of us only have what we know to make a quid, and on this site most of us are happy to share with likeminded others, "send it forward" as the saying goes.

You purchased a kit for the job requested, is it capable of fullfilling the job- yes (if not the supplier will rectify), is it faulty - no, did you get cold feet and bleep e yourself - YES, Just sell the kit on if you dont want it and learn from your experience. DONT bleep e on someone when from all accounts they have acted in a proper and industry standard manner.

oh - and buy a stock vehicle and live with it, dont change a thing, pay the full price and pay exorbitant amounts for dealer service from where you got it, and maybe - just maybe you will get some warranty coverage.

have a nice day :-)

Jimbo replied:

Well I'm happy to go against the tide, being popular has never been something I desire.

Derek has adhered to the law and has every right to reject your request.

HOWEVER........

In the current market many retailers exceed their legal requirements in the interest of customer service, public relations and repeat business.

Many of us shop at Myer, K Mart, Big W etc because we know we can return damn near anything, and they have set a standard.

In this instance I feel Derek is being a bit mean spirited. Let's face it....he wouldn't have been out of pocket by returning the items (other than the custom length cable) and would have built goodwill.

Has he made a good business decision? I doubt it. There is the possibility that a number of people may have read this thread and may choose to take their business elsewhere.

My opinion, he was within his rights, but made a mistake.

I'd buy elsewhere.