Mike Harding replied:

As someone who owns a small 4WD I am often amused by all these people lecturing us about the energy our vehicles use... most of them seem to take delight in buying wide screen TVs and other junk which uses a whole _heap_ of energy in their creation and use. Perhaps a good example of this is Al Gore who, it seems, has combined gas and electricity bills of US$40,000 per year for his house! “An Inconvenient Truth” perhaps?

Hypocrisy at it's worst methinks.

Mike Harding

MAVERICK(WA) replied:

I think it is a thing called freedom of choice - so what if some person purchases a LC100 with a v8 and fits 21" wheels with 45 profile tyres and never goes off the bitumen - so what if some person purchases a LC100 and fits it with 44' swampers and drives it on the bitumen - and so what if some person purchases an EVO8 and never races or rallies it - so what..............and that is where it sits..........until we decend even deeper into a full dictatorship and all choices are removed then maybe we should just let up on the criticism on what the other person has or has not got and just live our own lives. As for cyclists - why do my taxes need to be spent on the creation (and construction) of specialised bike paths and still the lycra clad morons ride in groups along the roads - sort of like pedestrians bouncing off vehicles isn't it - cars = roads....pedestrians = footpaths......cyclists = bike ways
rgds

Willem replied:

Ian

The image problem is only espoused by a minority. The image worry is also only perpetuated by a few with the aid of TV or the Internet.

The far greater 4x4 owners such as Governments(State and Federal), Mining and the Farming and Pastoral Industries, could not be bothered by this. Their 4x4's are there to do a job.

The recreational 4x4'er may be drawn in to this image problem thing through 4x4 Clubs or other groups.

I live in the country and people here couldn't give a rats arse about an image problem with 4x4's. You either have one or you don't. Here 4x4's are used in industry or for recreation.

Maybe its a thing more pernitent to densely populated areas of our country. Maybe it is a jealously thing. Who knows?

My thoughts.

Cheers

Exploder replied:

Again I am not sure what the answer is but we do have an image problem and this cannot be helping it> the only image problem we have is society trying to find fault at almost anything they can to try and bring some meaning into there pointless little life’s.

Andrew from Vivid Adventures replied:

Remind the Cyclists that there are a number of cycling events, like the Simpson Desert Cycle Challenge and Crocodile Trophy wouldn't exist without the 4WD community and 4WDers and 4WDs to help them make it possible.

Tell them they ought to get out into the desert more themselves in one of these extreme events and join (for instance), the SDCC this year (October 1-6).

Cheers
Andrew.

Member - Bill F (VIC) replied:

Hi Ian

There are very few 4WD that are trucks
THERE ARE VERY FEW BIKES THAT ARE BIGGER THAN NORMAL CARS
National and State parks have more tracks to ride a bike on than a 4WD is allowed on
"These are roads that would normally be drivable in a 2WD car but are no longer so" This is normally the work of the Government to stop 2Wd vehicles from going further and requiring assistance from the authorities when they get bogged or damage their cars

Each to their own

Ps only unimagimative or narrow focased people will not attemp to read a criptive message

BillF

V8Diesel replied:

As if I'd give a flying frick what a bunch of shaved poonces in lycra tights think of me.

Footloose replied:

I'd just like to point out that in my area cyclists are the ones with image problems. They use the roads as cycle tracks when it is demonstrably dangerous for them to do so. We have fatalities every year in competative groups going for their practise rides on our overcrowded fast moving roads. . Most of these groups ignore taxpayer funded cycle ways and hog the road, as is their "legal right". But its sheer stupidity to ride two abreast around blind corners with the sun in the car drivers eyes. The car will be doing the speed limit and the bike considerably less. Up here, such incidents are everyday common. Beetle hats and lycra do NOT save them from an accident caused by asserting their legal right to ride on the road. They're just as dead as if they didn't have that right.

So these guys are whinging about 4wds ?

Where's THEIR credibility ?

DFVZ replied:

We buy the type of vehicle that suits us and meets are needs / wants. As in every walk of life there are people who don't agree and think they and only they know what is right for the rest of us. They are minority groups who just can't accept that they are a minority. They have a syndrome that most minority groups have and that is that they need to make noise to make themselves feel bigger. It is just a PITA that the media give minority groups the airspace to get heard. If they get heard often enough people begin to think that "oh, we must feel that way or we are not normal". Our attitude is bugger the minority groups, we look at what we need and what suits us, more people should do the same because the way things are going everyone will be like a clone in the not too distant future.

Garbutt replied:

Aren't people wonderful, complaining about being stereotyped then refering to cyclists as shaved poonces and lycra clad morons.
Yes I have a 4wd and several bikes, where should I be pigeonholed?

IanM (Vic) replied:

Whoe there boys!
While venting your spleen at cyclists you have missed the point of my post - I said that most of them are accepting of 4WD's when they are used for their intended purpose (that's us) - their annoyance is directed at the Toorak Tractor types.
Believe me when I say that cyclists get just as annoyed as the rest of us at the bleep element amongst them that run red lights etc - the mud sticks to them (us - wearing my bike hat) all.
If I could just make a couple of quick points on cycling.
Cyclists do, in fact, pay taxes as well, and some of those taxes get used for things that do not concern them - much like your taxes going on bike paths. However if you have kids (or plant) then I think you will get some benefit from paths. Most, if not all, cyclists also would own a car, so pay rego at the same rate as the rest of us, but as they probably do less miles in their cars get less bang for their buck from that.
Why do lycra clad fools not use bike paths? Paths are also used by pedestrians (chatting with each other or with walkmans), people walking dogs, kids on bikes and others. I gave up on paths a long time ago as they are just useless for anything other than a very slow cruise or a rid with the kids.

"Remind the Cyclists that there are a number of cycling events, like the Simpson Desert Cycle Challenge and Crocodile Trophy wouldn't exist without the 4WD community and 4WDers and 4WDs to help them make it possible."
Andrew, I think that they would realise that - see above re Toorak Tractors.
Footloose, both groups are similar in that they have an image problem caused by a section - cyclists by morons, 4WDers by Toorak Tractors and the "I will go where I want" types.
I am not sure that hurling abuse at "lycra clad idiots" (not you Footloose) helps our cause any - besides the next one of those could be me, as I have a foot in both camps.
IanM

hoyks replied:

I don’t use the term truck either.

I can’t say I am a fan of the Toorak/Turramurra tractor brigade either. I only make the occasional trip to the city but you notice the nice shiny brand new wagons being driven by people with no consideration for anyone else around them, but a lot of Mercs, BMW’s and old clunkers are being driven the same way. It is the 4bies that stand out. The problem is that is too easy to label a whole group based on the experience with a few.
Every one will remember the clown that blew past, sprayed you with muddy water and knocked you off the road, but not the bloke that waved you through at the intersection, or stopped in the bush to help pump up a flat and refill your water bottles. That’s, I think, because you have made a personal connection with the driver rather than inhuman vehicle.

I was a trail bike rider too and I see it all the time where the magazines run down 4x4 owners, but neglect to remember that a lot of the readers own 4x4’s too so they can go camping and riding.

You can’t discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or gender anymore, but vilifying someone solely on the basis of what vehicle they choose to drive is fair game it would appear.

whyallacookie replied:

IanM By posting this on several forums you are in fact pushing the issue more.

I take issue with your comment about not using paths because of pedestrians walking and listening to walkman/discman/ipod etc

Guess what MOST cyclists do the same when they ride. I nearly ran over 1 on my way to work this morning when he decided to come out of a side street and go across the road I was driving along (Dual lane both ways). Don't know if he just didn't see me or didn't look, I'm, giving the benefit of the doubt and saying he did what we all have been guilty of doing and only having a half look.

Had he not have had the music on the Ipod blaring (I could hear it through my open window) he may have heard my diesel. I'm not against listening to music or riding bikes or the right to use the roads etc but if we drove with the music that loud we would have our car impounded.

IanM (Vic) replied:

whyallacookie

I am not actually trying to push any issue, just wondering what we can do to improve our image with the general public - and it does need improving, I do think we can dispute that. You only have to look at the various surveys and articles in the papers to see that, but as I have said the Toorak Tractor types are causing a good deal of the grief.

I have to disagree with you on cyclists and i-pods - I cannot remember the last time I saw that occur. But it is dills like the one you saw that reflect badly on us all.
(Please do not think I have anything against pedestrians using them, but the same issue is there - they cannot hear a bike coming - even with bell ringing - so it is just not worth riding on them).

IanM

Footloose replied:

Ian, what can we do for our image ?
Second hand car salesmen have poor images
Politicians have poor images
Policemen have poor images
Schoolteachers have poor images
If you dont subscribe to the Sydney Mardi Gras you have a poor image
If you're not "green" you have a poor image
If you make too much money you have a poor image
If you don't make enough money you're just poor...obviously its your problem as you made some bad choices ...tough luck.
Mate, you can be gay, 93 other shades of preferences, black brown or green, but poor, sick or old isn't cool. Sorry, you don't get your own TV show.
If you drive a Merc (or anything else)you have a poor image

I guess I'm just going to have to accept that Australia is the land of poor images.
A land where everyone seems to have their nose in your business.
OK boys and girls, leave your bullbars at the city limits unless you have a permit.
"No 4wd parking in these spaces"
"no this, no that"
"do this, do that"
A man's home is OUR castle.

Umm...anyone else feel that they've been around city folk for too long ? :))))))

JimDi replied:

I live in a major city and drive an 80 series landcruiser and tow an off rd camper trailer when I get the opportunity.
What am I supposed to do, ask the city to tear up roads and make them 4wd. Buy a second car or buy a bike and hide the 4wd.
If I could spend more time bush I would ,but cant so thats the simple answer.
As for the damage to the environment etc, I dont think one can blame four wheel drivers for cementing over large areas of cities. That was done so we could all get around easier including all transport users. Buses taxis trains etc..
As for bike riders good luck to them,but it never ceases to amaze me the number of bike riders in the dark early hours of the morning riding around with little or no reflective gear or lights and trying to share roads with all other users,but as someone else said not paying for the privilege.
And I am still at a loss as to why they shave their legs.
JimDi

Ozboc replied:

Had this arguement with a few people now, They ask why do i need such a big 4x4 ( nissan patrol 4.2 turbo with lift so on and so on ) Reply - i go camping almost every second weekend - and not talking to a caravan park! also the fact we need a 7 seater for my Gf's 3 kids and my 1 - AND i have a large trailer and a Skiboat i tow around -

They then start on the whole fuel efficience thing and how much diesel i use and waste- to which i counter argue with " My make my own bio diesel from old cooking oil and run it at 100% - i am therefore using a renewable source - what about you and your 2 litre petrol car ?

this usually ends there arguements pretty quick.

Boc

rolande replied:

G'Day IanM,

I have a couple of points to add to the arguement, specifically with what is happening to the "Great Otway National Park"

Now this is an area that traditionally sustains everything from Loggers, wood cutters, seed gatherers, to eco tourism, horse riders, bush walkers and campers, and for many years, the 4WD fraternity.

Now our "green" government, in an effort to shore up support in the middle of Melbourne, (2 hours away), have come up with a brilliant plan.

1. Stop logging - that will get us a few votes. Close 4WD tracks - that gains a few more, (and also stop horse riders, people walking their dogs etc)

2. Convince local wood cutters, loggers etc that tourism is the way to go. Spend lots of money on "studies" and some how come up with the plan that mountain bike riders will be the solution to all your problems.

3. Get a bull dozer out and clear tracks all through bush and water catchment areas, (we are on stage 4), and put tonnes on stone dust down. Remember, these are tracks built were no tracks; walking, driving, riding, etc, had existed previously.

4. Spend more money building a car park so these mountain bike riders can safely park their cars while they spend the afternoon enjoying the great outdoors, and then take off home before the Sunday afternoon rush.

5. Close all bush camping spots by putting up gates and bollards, and squeeze those who wish to bush camp into an every decreasing number of camps - then complain that maintenance costs too much so make it a walk-in camp area only - by pushing down half of another hillside and building a car park so campers can walk all their equipment 100m into the camping area. Several hundred more tonnes of stone dust so 2WD can get in as well.

6. Tell the unemployed how good this all is and how wonderfull their lives are now that the mountain bikers come to town and spend all that extra cash supporting local business. (which they don't of course).

So, if 4WD's should be kept out of the city - fine with me - so long as the bike riders stay at home in the city, so we can enjoy our peaceful, quiet, productive existence as we once did, before Parks Victoria came to help us all out and "improve" our lives.

Regards

Rolande

lifeisgood replied:

Well that shows we all have different interests and outlooks on things.
Pity we waste a lot of time fighting one another over such activities or recreation or mode of transport.
Better to try and chill out a little - lifes too short for anger and envy.
A big dollop of courtesy and consideration for all users would make for a better culture and society. Good wishes to all !

IanM (Vic) replied:

This thread seems to be more about bashing cyclists than anything else, so I will try one more time to make myself clear.
I only used cyclists as an example of what people in general think of 4WDers - it seems that most of you have had the same comments made our vehicles, and I imagine that those comments where not all made by people in lycra.
If you read my first post I said that people are generally accepting of 4WD's, whether they be in the country or city, if they are used for something other than dropping the kids off to school.
I am not sure how that statement has led to some of the angry responses that have surfaced - it would seem that quite a few 4WDers ride bikes and, surprise surprise, quite a few cyclists own a 4WD, so the two things are not mutually exclusive.
Both groups enjoy the outdoors and both pay taxes. As a driver why the hell should I pay for bike paths I will never use? As a cyclist why should I pay for high country track maintenance as I will never go there? We all pay for things we will never use, so I do not see that as a valid argument.
I believe that we simply must be seen to be responsible, caring (for the environment and other road/track users) if our lifestyle is to continue - some of the responses here, I am sad to say, have been anything but that.
Call me crazy, cast me to the lions, but that is what I think.

By the way, I have never shaved my legs, nor do I know anyone that does. I believe professional cyclist do it as it makes first aid easier after a fall - hope that clears that one up.

IanM (running for cover)