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National parks V permited Aboriginal land

Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 18:16

Steve from Top End Explorer Tours

Article Overview - Access, Restrictions & Permits
If any decent road map of outback Australia is examined, numerous tracks will be marked as “Permit Required”. Other tracks are marked as “Private Road” or “Aboriginal Business Road” and even “Restricted Access”. View Full Article...
It seems most people will abide by the rules of a National Park, The ones that state you must protect flora and fauna, most people don't have a problem with the rule that protect them.

Yet so many people want to have the permits lifted to travel through Aboriginal land , that protects their culture, artefacts, areas of cultural significants and the people themselves without a second thought.

Why can't people understand that white people put these permits in place, in order to protect the above mentioned.

White people have a permit in place to protect their property and families, Its called trespass laws.

permits are not put there to stop you traveling through their land, they are there to help you understand the reason you want to go.

When debating this topic please try to use the facts.

Cheers Steve.
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ThreadID: 48373 Replies: 13
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AnswerID: 255704   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 18:19

Mike Harding replied:

Not trolling are you Steve?
Reply 1 of 13
AnswerID: 255706   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 18:26

Voxson replied:

Most of the posts i see from Steve are just one-liners which seem to be only posted to try and stir people up. So no wonder the first response is synical. Nothing personal Steve but you never seem to say anything constructive or condusive to the general forum. So if this post is a turning point for you i am behind you 100% of the way.
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FollowupID: 516892   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 23:19

Steve from Top End Explorer Tours posted:

Hey Voxson

You are seriously taking the piss aren't you, I have spent countless hours giving informed replies to 4wd or camping related threads since march when I joined.

The only time I have given one liners as you put it, to stir people up is when people troll this forum.

Not every body likes what I have to say, I respect that if they are fair with their comments, The same as I don't agree with others.

I take offence to your first sentence and would like you to retract it.

Steve
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FollowupID: 516907   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 00:08

Voxson posted:

Steve,
Point taken.
I have cruised through the archives and i am wrong and right.
97% wrong and 3% right.
Some of the answers you have given over the time have got under my skin.
I uncovered a lot of good answers from you with my search through past posts.
Before that i had only seen a few of your posts which is what i went off at.
I betchya i am burnt in your head as a number1 bumhole.
Sometimes people go off before they think.
My first sentence says that "i see" which was true at the time i wrote it,, but in hindsight which is 20/20 vision i shouldnt have said any of it,,, so consider it retracted Steve. The whole lot.
Public appology also.

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FollowupID: 516919   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 08:18

Bonz (Vic) posted:

OK OK you two get a room!

Vox, it takes a big man to apologise, you have my respect

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FollowupID: 516929   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:39

Steve from Top End Explorer Tours posted:

Hey Voxson

Yeah sometimes you hit the submit button before reading your answer through, It always looks different once its up on the forum.

There are a couple of posts I wish I had not put up.

Thanks for the retraction, No hard feelings.

Steve.
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FollowupID: 516950   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 17:09

Voxson posted:

:o)
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FollowupID: 516951   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 17:11

Voxson posted:

:o)
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AnswerID: 255707   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 18:26

Member - Doug T (W.A) replied:

Steve
What about if whites were allowed in without permits , the situation would be that the Aboriginals would make a killing in trade with the artifacts and paintings, would give them an incentive to do something, get off the sit down money and have something to live for , I seen some beautiful art work on the walls os the store at Docker River..... can't sell it like that , better than the city made stuff , Tourists would like the genuine item , not imported, like souvenir Koala's and Kangaroos from China.
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FollowupID: 516931   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 10:22

Steve from Top End Explorer Tours posted:

Hey Doug

I'm not sure about other places, But in west Arnhemland all you do is ring the art centre and they issue you with a permit straight away,There is a small cost I think it is $12.50.

There is another permit for cobourg that cost $230 and is restricted, this restriction is by parks and wildlife not the black fella's, they only allow 30 cars a day and this is because of the sensitivity of the area.

Perhaps if other art centre's did this it would lessen the agro with most travelers.

1 day a year they have an open day at Oenpelle there are approx 5000 people attend, these people are asked to go straight to Oenpelle with no side tracks, A large # of people choose to ignore this, they stop and fish, go to art sites along the way and take side tracks in to area's that include burial sites.

The permit system is not perfect, But when you see this behavior it is not hard to see why it takes 3 months or more to get a permit, you can also see why these people have reservations letting people through there land.

One must not forget that this land is private property not crown land, this land was given back to these people under the land rights act.

Cheers Steve.
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AnswerID: 255714   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 18:59

Footloose replied:

I'm with you Steve, even though their are some managed access (and in some cases lack of access) areas that the communities need to explain.
Why should they explain, surely it's their heritage and they can do what they want ?
Not quite. When a community relies on white funding, they have certain obligations to the taxpayer. At the very least, an explanation of why that area is closed to non aboriginal people should be forthcoming on request.
Permits can have a good and a bad effect from what I understand. The bad effects include isolation from the mainstream(and what flows from that) and the possibility of administration misdeeds.
But I'll continue to respect and observe the conditions of the permit system. To do otherwise means risking the access of those who might want to follow.
Reply 4 of 13
AnswerID: 255715   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 19:10

Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. replied:

Steve ,

I do not believe a permit should be required to travel a major road from WA to Alice Springs . And before anyone says it's not a major road - it is the only road in that area to connect the North West to the centre .

If the aboriginals want to stop people leaving the track except at camping sites , I think that would be a good idea . You talk about "white people" and "trespass" , but I guess you must never have driven through private property on roads that bisect them .

Why should I have to travel way up north to the Tanami Track or down south to the Eyre Hwy - because they are the closest roads I can take without a permit and that is farcical . Especially when some clown takes three months to send out a simple notification . It is not as though they actually look at the background of the person , or when they are travelling .

"permits are not put there to stop you travelling through their land, they are there to help you understand the reason you want to go"
It is Friday - is this some kind of joke

I like facts too Steve , but there is none in your post .

Willie .

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FollowupID: 516902   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 23:33

Steve from Top End Explorer Tours posted:

There are plenty of facts in my post , the only thing is you don't like them.

Pre 1973 it was still legal to shoot a black fella, only if you had a good excuse, perhaps waiting 3 months for a permit, would justify a good excuse.
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AnswerID: 255717   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 19:32

Member - bushfix replied:

I heard you straight away Steve.

I believe that unfortunately, there is no way that any whitefella can grasp wholly, the importance, the daily (and generational) significance, of Country to the blackfella. The loss of Language, dilutes the strength to Country and that is why, Country, must be protected, to preserve the link and kindle Language. The point of "flux" between the two cultures is obviously where the most negative impressions are made. These cultures are so far apart, yet with each opportunity, if one takes a step towards the other, every effort must be given to reciprocate.

But the media is a powerful thing, and you will not read many good stories amongst the easy ones, nowhere near it.

"trolling"....I would not cheapen your post with that suggestion....you surprised me there Mike.

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AnswerID: 255719   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 19:41

Member - Kim M (VIC) replied:

Steve

The permit system is a nonsense.

The term "permit" should be replaced by "respect". If I want to visit somebody I ring them, ask if I'm welcome and if the time is convenient.

Not once have I had a problem visiting a community.

Some of the hysterics I've read on this site smacks of total ignorance.

While I'm on my little soap box... If people want an Outback experience then put a bit of time into visiting a community during your trip.

Regards

Kim

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AnswerID: 255721   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 19:42

Mr Fawlty replied:

Take nothing but photographs - leave nothing but footprints. If we all abide by this age old adage then we would do no damage anywhere....
Reply 8 of 13
AnswerID: 255723   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 19:51

Member - Bill F (VIC) replied:

Hi Steve

I cut and paste

"Why can't people understand that white people put these permits in place, in order to protect the above mentioned."

At the request and direction of the ELDERS

"White people have a permit in place to protect their property and families, Its called trespass laws."

And it works. Why does someone else need abnormal protection?

"permits are not put there to stop you travelling through their land, they are there to help you understand the reason you want to go."

I disagree with your Fact and or Reason

As a near retiring (I hope) White man ( I use your terminology) I hope to return to many of the roads and tracks that I travelled through for a lot of 1976 to see personally the changes to the cities towns and camp-sites and to see as a city slicker what has become of OUR great outback

I know there are changes like Ayers Rock, I worked there for a month within a stones throw of the base, camped on the De Grey river and camped and fished where we wanted on the 80 mile beach and visited ANY town or civilisation or community that did not have a gate or warning sign of trespass off the main track or road

We want to travel when and where within the law that we want and not be tied to time frames eg you are permitted with this permit to travel during this week only

"When debating this topic please try to use the facts."

What facts are you trying to say, that you have a tour set up to take me anywhere I cannot go, whenever I want

BillF

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Reply 9 of 13
FollowupID: 516856   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 20:51

Doggy Tease posted:

Gday to all on this cool winter eve from here in sunny Perth.
I read Steve's post and the responses that followed with an open mind and a complete understanding about what the topic really is and how it relates to us as a group and as each individual.
Soooooooo,here's my spin on things if i may.
Steve, i grew up around the places that you now "tour" through. It was literally my backyard, from Darwin in the West to Arnhem land in the east, all the way down to the Alice. The "indiginous" peoples of this land are good honest people who live a simple and unfetterred life, untill the "white man" shows his nose in.
The large majority of these people dont really care about the permit system, they care about the land. They respect the land and what it has to offer them and ask that "we" do the same. Thats all.
Everything else that comes along has the taint of the "white man" on it, from permits to no go areas.
As hard as it may be to believe, i know a few of the dreamtime stories of the land you speak about. Nothing in this world, and i mean nothing, compares to sitting at the top of Nourlangie Rock, listening to the stories from a true tribal elder as he related the time"s of his people. There simply is no comparison. Everything he told and taught was about his people and their land.
Respect for the land is first and foremost in the mind of a true Australian, as it should be for all of us.
Time for the government to stop playing to the minority groups who "control" the land and let all people learn to respect it for what it is,,,,,our home.
"Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints".................so true, yet so unobtainable in the society we live.

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FollowupID: 516870   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 21:56

Bonz (Vic) posted:

DT you presume to know all about this issue then make the No 1 Mistake in the Book - YOU ASSUME....... What makes you think that Steve wasnt bought up in Arnhem Land, What makes you think that Steve hasnt met with elders up there and indeed grown up with some of the legends of the North. Steve may even have been married at Ubirr with specific permission of the traditional elders.

I know this cause I have met the man.

I too have sat at Nourlangie Rock and mused at what connection the aboriginal people have with the land, marvelled at the Lightning Man and spent a few moments of quiet reflection thinking of what drove the innate connection to the land that our aboriginal people have.

Standing on the rock at Ubirr looking out at what is now Universally known as "BilongaMick" is indeed a moving experience. Looking at the Thylacine painted on the rock there is quite amazing.

All that said, I think that you two probably grew up within 100km of each other and in a land as big as ours that makes you neighbours.

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FollowupID: 516874   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 22:05

Doggy Tease posted:

Gday Bonz,,,,,,,,,,started at Alice when i was six. Up to Katherine when i was seven,,,,(the year of Tracey), then out to Point Stuart for many years. Followed up with Mudjinberrie for a few more years after that.
Spent alot of time in Arnhem Land and all through that area.
Gove is a special place that deserve's special mention as well.
Me and my mum were the first in a long time to find Stuarts tree up on the coast..
Yeah, you could say i know the area....before all the bloody fences, toll's and idiots got hold of the place,,,,,,,,,when it was a loand that was open for all to explore and respect. ( Who the hell decided it would be a good idea to fence of Swim Creek fer crist sake.....:(:(:(:(:( )

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AnswerID: 255739   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 21:15

Big Mike replied:

What about my land, my property. Anyone, black, white or doped up drug addict is legallly allowed to traverse through my farm. I have a love for the land as well. Respect should go both ways, black, white or indifferent. National Parks are allowed to jump the fence and come onto my property to track animals, but I cant use a firearm within hundreds of metres of my own fenceline, on my own property, to shoot the wild dogs, (not dingos) that come onto my property from the national park.
Talk about getting off your moral high horses, there should be equality, no reverse racism and respect for each others rights.
My two bobs worth.
Reply 10 of 13
AnswerID: 255758   Submitted: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 at 22:32

Andrew from Vivid Adventures replied:

There is a Fed Gov't plan to change the permit system - I've not seen it discussed here, but it may be behind this post or the earlier ones - I don't know, but just because it relates to this subject I'll comment on that.

The Fed's plan appears to be that permit system access to communities (as distinct from indigenous country in general) will no longer be required so that bad things can't go on behind the protection of the permit system. You can expect to still need permits for much indigenous owned land across the country, but not to visit a community.

In my experience, it is only when people have failed to respect the indigenous owners that access has been denied - generally, unfortunately, for us all rather than just the disrespectful. On the other hand, a little persistence and willingness to take time to talk with indigenous owners and most things can be arranged. Please talk to them more often and be prepared to listen to them as hard as it can be at times.

I don't think the permit system is working well in any state of Australia either in supporting legitimate access or in protecting culture or artifacts - but the reasons why are complex. As some of the posts on this thread of pointed out, there is a cultural divide, but that can be crossed if the non-indigenous amongst us do a lot more listening.

Cheers
Andrew.
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FollowupID: 516909   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 00:26

Member - Barnesy (SA) posted:

From what I understand many Aboriginal communities are baffled by this "national emergency". It has been happening for years but all of a sudden it's an emergency? Having said that most communities seem to welcome it. They've been struggling for years to clean up their communities and want the help.

As a worker in the health field, I know first hand the frustrations of reporting domestic (and sexual) abuse in a system full of beaurocrats who don't give a toss what happens to Aboriginal people. If this is a means to get a change in attitude and more resources out bush then I'm all for it.

But the removal of the permit system has met widespread disapproval. What communities are saying is that it will now be harder to filter out the bad people from entering thier communities opening them up to more abuse, sly grog and drugs.

Paternalistic governmental policies can only go so far before an open ear has to come to the fore.

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AnswerID: 255768   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 00:01

Member - Barnesy (SA) replied:

In areas of Australia white people used to get a bounty for killing Aboriginals. A certain amount for women, a bit more for men. Near Dampier there is a story of where a policeman raped a black woman, the tribal men got revenge on the cop, then many white men from the town got revenge back and wiped out the whole tribe with their superior weapons. Sadly this is common in Oz's history.

Psychologists say it takes communities of people several generations to fully move on after major traumas, such as wars etc. My grandparents still hate the Boers, Germans and Japs as they have been Australia's enemies in wars. They've witnessed events or heard stories about them

These stories are passed down through generations of families and aren't forgotten.

Aboriginal people have finally gotten rightful control back over many areas of thier family's lands. Aboriginal people just want their land to be cared for. I'm sure there are better ways to do that than with the permit system, but at this point in history this is what we have, so unless anybody has a better solution just live with it.

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AnswerID: 255771   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 00:50

Blaze replied:

My father served quite a large time in the Top End during WW2, and it just seems ironic to me that back in those days Service men and women and civilians (Black, White or Silver) could go anywhere they liked to help protect Australia.

I am not arguing that Europeans didn't come and take land etc from the Aboriginals, but descendants of these very Europeans also saved the country from being run over during WW2.
I think this country belongs to Australians, again (Black, White or Silver). I don't believe I should have to ask for a permit to travel directly from Alice Springs to the West Coast, neither do I believe that a Kaurna Aboriginal (Adelaide Area) descendants should have to ask for a permit to travel through Ngalakan Aboriginal (Roper River) Land. Had the Kaurna Aboriginal been found on Ngalakan Land as little as 100 yrs ago he would have been killed. So it seems Europeans have at least opened up Australia and bought a lot of Aboriginal tribes together.

Something I don't believe I have ever seen mentioned on here is what do most people believe the fate of the Aboriginal would have been if Europeans were not here in the past 70 years and Japan had invaded in the 40's ????

Hypothetically I wonder if white Australian Solders would need to wait for a permit to get to areas if Indonesia went mad and tried to invade this great land of OURS!!

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FollowupID: 516911   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 03:26

Richard Kovac posted:

Oh good on us Europeans, do you mean the white ones or the WOGS like ME

HaHa

Cheers

Richard Kovac
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FollowupID: 516921   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 08:27

Bonz (Vic) posted:

Blaze I reckon that the question is not the past 70 years moreover its a wider question. the reason Asutralia was a target during WW2 was due to Australians declaring war on Japan etc, not due to Aboriginals declaring war on Japan, so the question should be differently asked IMHO.

What would have happened to Terra Australis if Europeans hadnt conquered her in the 1700's?

THAT is an interesting proposition. There may have been an Asian invasion same as the European one, and Toyota's may be being made here in their millions.

Now THAT is a fate worse than what we have now....

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FollowupID: 516935   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 12:08

Blaze posted:

Richard I think I said (Black, White or Silver), I guess that includes WOGS like you as you put it. Pity we couldn't all be Australians but I have mentioned on here before there are to many on both sides of the coin with hang ups. To many people that believe they should be treated specail and to many that believe some minority races should be treated just like that a minority.

I find it ironic that most people seem to have either a (Italian, Greek, Asain, Yank, Pom, Aboriginal etc) friend yet there still seems to be such a large diecrimination feeling in this country. I TRY to take treat every person no matter what race on their merits.

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FollowupID: 516936   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 12:12

Blaze posted:

Bonz a least I am OK, Mitsibishi have a factory here (for now any way) so the invasion had already started LOL

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FollowupID: 516942   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 14:12

Richard Kovac posted:

Blaze Hi

I don't have a problem with most people (Poms maybe) lol, I do have a problem with our history and that needs addressing one day a good man may come along and say sorry. Until then we will all have to try to live together,

I have no problem with Aboriginals owning there land and I have no problem with the permit system or getting the apply every year and have no issues. :-)

Toyota still have a factory here in the land of OZ

seems Nissan are the odd man out ;-(

Richard
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FollowupID: 516978   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 22:06

Member - Clive G (NZ) posted:

Richard.
Please don’t refer to your self as a wog. It’s a derogatory term that nobody deserves. You should be proud of your heritage, whatever it is. I read your posts with interest and respect your opinion, Don’t spoil the image.
Regards. CliveG.

PS. Following this debate with interest but not commenting as it’s none of a Kiwi’s business.
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FollowupID: 516979   Submitted: Saturday, Aug 04, 2007 at 22:20

Richard Kovac posted:

Clive.

Thanks, it's OK I'm a Victorian (but don't tell too may people).

I just don't like this us and them, sort of things :-)

Cheers

Richard
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