DIY-Electrical Wiring and the Nanny State

Submitted: Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 14:06
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First credit for source material in this note goes to Silicon chip magazine Issue june 2008.

Most of us on this site probably concur on the extent to which Australia has become a nanny state at the cost to ourselves both finnacially and from a saftey point of you.

Many of us get involved with electrical wiring from 12v to 240vac via vans trailers and the use of chargers, invertors and extension co-ords.

In Australia the nanny state has extended so far that one is not legally entitled to even pull a light switch from the wall (let alone disconnect the wires) to paint around it.

Yet our nearby neighbour N.Z. allows this and much more freedom in general wiring , replacement of sockets, construction of power leads and the repair of appliances than we do.

From the above lets first squash 2 immediate issues ->

1/ Standards - both countries use the same combined standard As/Nzs:3000

2/ Saftey - Deaths per million in Aust are approx 1 -> N.Z is a bit less at approx 0.7

Rather that beat up the dangers and hide information on how to safetly do some of your own work New Zealand publishes informative specific guides on how to do your own and what is permitted.

E.G.

(How to do things - with diagrams)
http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/upload/33458/ecp51v18.pdf

(What you can do)
http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/upload/31994/brochure.pdf


Robin Miller
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 16:01

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 16:01
You are right Robin,
In NZ a home owner can completely wire their own house including the switch board as long as the house is not connected to the mains. You will have to have it checked and certified by a registered Electrical Inspector (not an electrician) before the house is connected to the mains. Also note that the neutral is considered to be a live wire, this is way the house must not be connected to the mains.

In their own house a home owner can do new electrical work as long as they do not 'enter' any area (box, switch board etc.) that has live wires present. And, as above the work will have to be inspected and certified.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 18:58

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 18:58
You guys over there are way ahead of us Kiwi
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Reply By: DIO - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 17:19

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 17:19
Perhaps there were too many D.I.Y. 'installers' or tradesmen coming along after them and their 'handi-work' getting electrocuted.
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Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Kath - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 17:27

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 17:27
Come on Robin, we haven't been allowed to change a tap washer for years either. We are expected to let it drip until it becomes financially viable to stop it dripping.

Ifound it interesting that in the Yarra Valley a few months ago when we went on a balloon flight you could see all the water troughs on one property had been flowing over or leaking at one stage or another. Many of them were still doing it{:-( Isn't the Yarra Valley on water restrictions over summers?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 21:02

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 21:02
We often head out early sat morning thru yarra valley and watch the ballons on our way north John , so you may have been looking down on us.

You might be surprized but most of those areas have no water restrictions , it was a pleasure to wash my car the other day in Benalla with a normal hose.
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Reply By: Tony MD - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:21

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:21
To Robin & all.

Instead, removal of switches etc is not required when the said switch etc is of the cover plate type - which has been around for around 20 years. First by Wilco with the Trend Setter range. Problem solved.

One death due to an electrical accident is one too many!

As an aside, I am often asked by clients taking out house insurance to provide a detailed inspection & report of the electrical installation. Insurance cover is not provided until the faults are rectified and a certificate of electrical safety provided.

Licensing of electrical workers is not covered in AS/NZS3000 as these are just the wiring rules. The Standard does refer to lots of other standards in Appendix A. It should not be read or interpreted just on its own!

Licensing of electrical workers (LEW) is by state & territory legislation in Australia.

Fixed installations with low voltage cables ARE required to be installed by LEWs. Portable installations are not covered by the standard or legislation -referring only that the works be carried out by a competent person.

With only 30 years in the electrical trade, it is with regret that I must confide that nearly every electrical installation is not compliant in some way, no matter if the works are carried out by a LEW or not. Some of these installations are potentially very dangerous, if not to the user, then to those who may work on the installation at a later time - Always test & do not assume.

I wonder if the same NZ house holders bother to obtain a copy of the required standard in order that their work complies?

Cheers, Tony. REC 7359

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:56

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:56
I guess they are the rules Tony , but if the government stats are correct then under any reasonably logical arguement we should be moving to the NZ practise to reduce electrical accidents.

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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 21:51

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 21:51
Robin, the average forum user has enough problems with 12 volt systems. What size wire, fuse, how to etc. etc.
Some of the replies from our so called forum experts is plain wrong.
What I see with low voltage installations (mains) is woeful. Earthing conductor on a twin & earth cable used as an active strapper cable in order to use it for 2 way switching. It works BUT!

Closed shop, not really. There have always been the availability for other trades to obtain a relevant license or use their previous training as credits for Electrical licensing.

As for the percentage rates, fatalities against population is a bit too simplistic. What really should be looked at is a ratio of fatalities, injuries, population & electrical installations. Anyway, due to the larger population in VK than ZL, it should be expected that the fatality rate would be greater - bigger sample pot & thus the percentage rates not being linear.

I will be spending 2.5 hrs tomorrow at an AS/NZS 2007 regulations seminar.

I must say, that as the standards have developed, that a greater application to common sense is becoming prevalent.
The standard is not just rules, it is designed to protect lives and property. You might feel somewhat different if friend or family were injured due to an electrical incident? These percentage figures are real people.

Cheers Tony.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 22:27

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 22:27
Tony, a logical approach should show that if anyone got hurt then any different feelings could only be directed against a system thats tends to defend itself in the face of apparently poorer saftey records.

It is reasonable to question and put flesh to the saftey records.

I don't argue that point of either side - but on the basis of government statistics NZ electrical people can point to Australia's system as a failure compared to their system of openess and support.
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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 06:30

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 06:30
& yes, this may reflect why the alleged Licensing regulations in Australia are more stringent.
Remember, statistics can and are made to represent what the user wishes to portray.
My big issue is that I see so many non compliant installations, which shows that there are too many persons out there doing electrical work that either do not know what they are doing or are too plain lazy (often the case) to do the job correctly.

Cheers Tony - off to Dandenong TAFE
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:41

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:41
I have to ask you Robin - if you are not an 'A' grade licenced electrician are you sure you should be commenting on this subject?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:46

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:46
OK! I agree - I should add [satire]!
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:52

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:52
Definately a closed shop Mike - by the way don't know when you went thru school , but one of my first subject in radio engineering was house wiring - I think at the time it was legal for me to even do what those mum's in NZ can do without any training.
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Reply By: oldtrack123 - Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 23:02

Monday, Jun 23, 2008 at 23:02
Hi
THE big flaw in after wiring inspection of work carried out by inexperienced people unaware of the rules is the inspector does not have xray vision .
He cannot see behind walls etc . potential safety & fire problems could exist which no meter testing will reveal.
Even qualified elects make mistakes or are not always aware of the latest rules.
YES , it is ellegal to do your own electrical, plumbing ,sewarage work , gas work{ even in a caravan ]
WHY, BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL RISKS TO THE PERSON DOING IT & TO OTHERS & PROPERTY POSSIBLY IN TIME TO COME.
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:08

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:08
The restrictive regs in Oz are a heap of dingo's kidneys.

Their prime concern is to provide job security to the electricians closed shop and permit them to hold customers to ransom when their skills are in short supply - such as now.

The UK (60 million people) has permitted people to do their own wiring since electricity was discovered (as does most of the world) yet its streets are not littered with blackened corpses or burned down buildings - how do you explain that?

One has to admire the scare tactics of Australian electricians, they have managed to convince much of the population that only they understand electricity and it's sure to be near certain death for any, not of their brotherhood, to venture near it.

Basic electricity and electrical wiring is not difficult or complex - anyone who is moderately intelligent and capable with their hands can understand it.

Tony: I would be interested to know how I might become registered as an electrician in Victoria? I have a number of tertiary qualifications in electronics, I worked as a factory electrician in the UK for five years (11KV, FLP, installation, overhead cranes etc) and on high voltage systems (22KV) and urban distribution systems in the Middle East, I used to be a member of the UK ETU and, additionally, have 25+ years in pure electronics and embedded systems design including the design of test equipment which electricians use. My understanding is that to obtain an electrician's registration in Victoria I would have to undergo an apprenticeship under the auspices of a Licenced Electrician, is that correct?

At least the regs should be relaxed to permit people to do electrical work on their own homes - many already do anyway.

Mike Harding

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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 18:47

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 18:47
Mike.
Your comments re regulations, scare tactics etc is just fundamentally Wrong and can not be justified in any way; no matter what argument you decide to put up. Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. It is NOT supported by the majority or the authorities - Work Cover, The various State Coroners etc.

1. Silicon Chip has had a long running agenda on this issue. It appeals to people of a similar thought to your self.

2. As for becoming licensed, if you were genuinely interested you would have already enquired.
Now days it would be to contact Energy safe Victoria and or NECCA & the ETU. Also your local TAFE college.
Others such as instrument technicians, electrical fitters and even radio techs have previously traveled this path.
Credits are given for prior training.
I was able to fast track an ACMA Open cabling License with Cat5e endorsement is a similar way.
It may be possible to undergo the required training at your present place of work?

3. Many house holders do their own electrical work even though it is illegal. I can not condone it but accept it as a fact. I see it every week Mike. Some is OK, Some good & alot is crap.
How does one differentiate between one or the other? You can't. The only way is to have a licesining system. I and other electricians have found that some of the WORST offenders for non compliant electrical installations in private homes are those installations carried out by Electrical Engineers - they know the theory but not the practical application.
Mike, I do not question your qualifications or experience. If you were employed at a large company that had, maintenance electricians, then you may be able to undergo the required training whilst "in house"

4. As previously stated. How can anybody provide electrical installation work & claim that it is compliant without having a working knowledge of the required standards?
It is not possible!
Further, how can the home electrician match the 6 years of training plus examinations it took for me to obtain a Contractors License?
They cant unless they have done similar training!
In the same way, if I need medical attention, I consult a qualified doctor.
If the braking system on the car requires attention, I consult a brake expert.
In both cases I value their knowledge & experience.
I would value your experience in your related fields.
You should do like wise with others.

5. Licensing and Standards are separate issues. At least a license provides surety that the holder has had a satisfactory working knowledge of the required standards at the time of examination. Continual training and the certification system provides a means to keep abreast of regulatory changes.

6. Future as well as existing property owners deserve to have some protection or surety that their electrical installation work is compliant. I have had to rewire numerous sub standard installations - thus making the home wiring job a non cost effective project.

This discussion has drifted off Topic to that of the intended purpose of this Forum.
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Follow Up By: Patrolman Pat - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:14

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:14
I tend to agree with Mike on this topic. I'm a plumber/gas fitter with a restricted electrical licence. What I was trained and permitted to do (electrically) in the UK is far in excess of what the authorities in SA will allow me to work on. I'm all for compliance, I see enough dodgy work done by so called licenced tradesmen every day to realise the value of having compliance requirements, but there is definately a closed shop mentality amongst many trades in Oz that is restricting many very capable people from entering the workforce.
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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:35

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:35
Patrolman Pat. You have received training. That makes you a competent person in the fields you have been trained in. The common property owner has had no such training. This is what it is all about -
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:37

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:37
Tony MD, I totally agree about BE's being the worst !
Let's not get hung-up on standards for general electrical wiring though as they are only one method of reaching the desired outcome. You can do the work almost anyway you want as long as it is safe and you are prepared to justify your methods / calcs / testing procedures.
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Follow Up By: Patrolman Pat - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 22:38

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 22:38
Tony MD posted "Patrolman Pat. You have received training. That makes you a competent person in the fields you have been trained in"

My issue is that the authorities here, in SA, won't recognise that level of competency, In the UK I could, and did, wire up 240V control systems for heating systems, domestic and commercial. Here i had to undertake a course just to carry out minor works. If I wanted to do similar to what i did in the UK I would have to do a full electrical apprenticeship.
When I did my plumbing and electrical courses here to get the appropriate licences the course were 95% UK tradesmen, all paying lots of money, to do a course that, at the end of the day taught us very little and allowed us to do simple jobs that we were all over qualified to do in the UK.
I have no desire to become a sparky but I'm not legally allowed to, for example, replace a faulty circuit breaker on a water heater installation.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:31

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:31
Hi Tony

>Your comments re regulations, scare tactics etc is just fundamentally Wrong

Why?

>and can not be justified in any way; no matter what argument you decide to put up.

You mean I’m wrong, no matter what?

>Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion

Thanks, I was beginning to wonder.

> It is NOT supported by the majority

Hard to say really, I doubt a survey has ever been done but, anyway, I refer you back to the scare campaign of the electricians.

>or the authorities Work Cover, The various State Coroners etc.

Authorities in which country? Or are you suggesting Australia has a more lethal kind of electricity? Anyway, “The Authorities” are usually interested in protecting the status quo as is, clearly, the situation in this case. Although Tony, you would do well to note that the Qld government refused to restrict the sale of plugs, sockets, circuit breakers etc to the general public despite a request from the ETU to do so.

>1. Silicon Chip has had a long running agenda on this issue.
>It appeals to people of a similar thought to your self.

Silicon Chip is a magazine for hobbyists – I have no interest in it at all.

>2. As for becoming licensed, if you were genuinely interested you would
>have already enquired.

I have, I simply wanted to see if you knew the answer. I would be required to do an apprenticeship. If that isn’t a closed shop when applied to someone with my history then, I’m damned if I know what is?

>3. Many house holders do their own electrical work even though it is illegal.
>I can not condone it but accept it as a fact. I see it every week Mike.
> Some is OK, Some good & alot is crap. How does one differentiate between
>one or the other? You can't. The only way is to have a licesining system.

No it isn’t. How do you explain that most other countries on the planet do not feel the need to have such a system yet have safe electrical systems – once again I site the UK and I’m still waiting for an answer – although have, pretty much, given up hope of getting one!

> I and other electricians have found that some of the WORST
>offenders for non compliant electrical installations in private homes are those
> installations carried out by Electrical Engineers - they know the theory but not the
>practical application.

Oh dear :) the envy of the tradesman without a degree rears its head again.

I’ve been on both sides of the fence Tony and I have heard such cries from Sparkies since I started in this business. Most electrical and electronic engineers don’t do their own home wiring because it’s far more cost effective for them to pay a sparkie to crawl around in the attic whilst they earn more money following their profession.

>Further, how can the home electrician match the 6 years of training plus
>examinations it took for me to obtain a Contractors License?

Sorry to tell you this Tony but it should take one hell of a lot less than six years to train a Sparkie.

>They cant unless they have done similar training!

Explain to me, please, what is so complex about low voltage electrical installation that it requires six years of training?

> I would value your experience in your related fields.
>You should do like wise with others.

I’ve been there Tony – I’ve done what you do.

>This discussion has drifted off Topic to that of the intended purpose of this Forum.

You mean you’re having a hard time defending the position that no one but a Licensed Electrician should be permitted to do anything more than change the batteries in his torch – why am I not surprised?

If nothing else… explain to me how the UK manages with such a system?

Mike Harding

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Follow Up By: Tony MD - Thursday, Jun 26, 2008 at 21:13

Thursday, Jun 26, 2008 at 21:13
Mike.
Firstly may I say that your reply is more than "a little insulting."

Secondly, do NOT attempt credit me with your own thoughts. This site is about Camping and Caravanning around Australia" - thus a prolonged discussion such as this IS off topic!

I am not so presumptuous as to assume that my knowledge exceeds all that of the committees who have provided us the system of electrical regulation in this country.
Our system is so devised with the predominating emphasis on safety. You obviously do not agree, and like to believe in conspiracy theories & the like. In this country, your beliefs are
wrong! Why? Because a greater number of similarly and or greater skilled people - certainly with a greater variety of skills and experience than you or I - have laid down the regulatory system that we have, one that you do not agree with!

I can not speak for the UK system, not having studied it or having worked there, except to say that an electrician who I once worked with had a working holiday for some years in the UK & had no issue with obtaining a reciprocal license - I recall his reading up on the local regulations & distribution systems. I would have assumed that the reverse scenario would also be possible? Or, is it that our standards are higher than those in other countries, including the UK?

As for the 6 years of training. This was a 4 year apprenticeship followed by 2 years of practical experience as an A grade electrician. I am surprised that you did not already know this, having stated that you had already looked into the requirements of obtaining an electrical license. This training involved more than just LV works. HV obviously plus hazardous areas. For what it is worth, I also studied Industrial Electronics, Electrical Motor Control, Pneumatic Control systems plus Quoting / Estimating and Small Business skills - all at night school at TAFE.

My previous posts have been careful in language & terminology. AS3000/ 2007, as with previous / other Australian standards, does NOT require a licensing system for electrical workers. It only requires that those persons be competent. Licensing is done by the individual state & Territories, the theory being that a satisfactory completion of the required training will ensure a minimum standard in competency.

Did you know that in outback Queensland and Northern Territory, station property owners may undertake their own electrical work? The reason being due to a shortage of licensed tradesmen in the areas of concern.

You should realise that under the trade practices act in Victoria, and obviously in QLD, that the purchase of electrical equipment is open to all, as to do otherwise would be a restriction of trade. The problem with this is that the non competent person generally does not know what product to purchase, their choice often being determined by purchase price rather than suitability - TPS cable is a classic example. The same can be said for plumbing equipment.

If you already know the answer, why ask the question? Instead enlighten us all as to what is required for the likes of yourself to obtain an electrical license.

I have no spite against Electrical Engineers. No degree or apprenticeship provides common sense.
It is just a fact that one has to be wary when working in an
Electrical Engineers property - it is called surviving.
Once again - DO NOT express your thoughts as mine!

I repeat my claim. How can anybody attempt to carry out - in this case electrical work - that is safe & compliant without a working knowledge of the required standards? It is for this very reason that I am against the home electrician.

Are you aware that in AS3000/2007, as a direct request from the NSW coroner, that the reinforcing mesh of concrete slabs of floors and walls of bathrooms is required to be equipotential bonded? This is due to two deaths in NSW. Is this scare mongering? I think not!

Here below is why electrical works should be restricted to competent persons.

When I was a kid, our family had a boat at Lake Eildon. Like most of the boats at that time, it was home built, the owners being a bit above competent handymen. One Christmas, the family who had the boat next door came up without their father / husband & needed some help with the boats' batteries. You see, their father was electrocuted prior to Christmas whilst investigating a lighting circuit fault in their home.

My own father removed a strip heater from the wall of his office. He thought it could be used in the bathroom back at home. He ensured that the heater was turned off by engaging the pull cord on the heater. On disconnecting the wires, he managed to make live the metallic based wall paper and a co worker received an electric shock.

At a new installation in Aspendale, I was contracted to install a main switchboard, power and lights to a workshop. The workshop was to be used to construct the remainder of the house. The owner / builder was a German bloke who allegedly had qualifications to do his own work in Germany.
Some time later, I was again contracted to do works, this time to divert the existing workshop supply to the house. This required the then SEC as well as an inspector. Needless to say the bloke had done most of his own wiring but I would not connect it to the supply.
Why? Home made fluorescent lights on bits of wood - exposed uninsulated terminals, pendant double power point using spade lugs fixed to the pins of a double adapter .... His wife was relieved that I refused to connect this work to supply, privately she told me this but publicly she could not be seen to contradict her husband!

I worked at a chemical plant doing maintenance & installation. The maintenance engineer made up his own 3 phase extension cord with male plugs on both ends!

You could argue that I have selected the worst of the worst this would tendto be true.
I do see numerous instances of dangerous installations as well technical breaches. These are not restricted to the home electrician, some "qualified people" are nearly as bad. At least under the present regulatory system there is some come back on these "dodgy licensed electricians.

You will also attempt to argue your case as to the "figures" on deaths in Australia compared to those in other countries - in this case the quoted New Zealand - being higher.
Well, I, like yourself (I assume) am not qualified to say. I do know that any figures can be used to represent either side of the same argument. I suggest that the said "figures" are just too simplistic. Injuries, deaths and the way in which they occurred all need to be clarified. A large number of incidents in Australia are from contact with over head power lines and the like - which have little relevance to electrical installation works (source Energy Safe Victoria)

In closing, "Victoria, the Nanny State", would be better addressed to those of us who refuse to take responsibility for our own actions! Those who are always looking for somebody else to blame! As a professional in the electrical industry, If I were to provide wiring details to someone who proved to be a non-competent person and that person got things severely wrong, it would be me and not the non competent person who would have a case to argue! Oh the British justice system! But what alternative?

Cheers, Tony

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jun 27, 2008 at 08:01

Friday, Jun 27, 2008 at 08:01
Hi Tony,
My favourite question to an "engineer" is; "why do we have an earth connection" ?

Also, in an area which has dry sandy soil a driven earth is of no use at all so why is it mandated ? Most countries do not use an earth at all.

As far as electrical hazards and statistics go I think that there is far more chance of injury on our roads or by being struck by lightning then there is of having an electrical shock from a LV installation.
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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:35

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:35
Keeping the country dumb makes it fat. We have seen the results.
I agree with you 100% .. Where I come from you can do it yourself no problems.. including gas plumbing as long as you connect to the grid through a licensed person. And the average person weighs 15kg less (a guess but I think its close).
good luck
gmd

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 21:13

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 21:13
Hi Gmd

Thats one correlation I never would have thought of , but dumbing the population is an institution in Australia and I expect that these factors tend to make most (but not the general exploroz community) spend extra time in front of the telly and so it probably does contribute to making the country fat as you say.
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Reply By: oldtrack123 - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 22:03

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2008 at 22:03
Hi Robin
I wonder why you are so concerned ,like Silicon Chip about , about electrical licensing but do not appear to be about the same rigid requirments for llisenced gas fitters & plumbers .
, Do you consider 24Ov to be safer to work on & the myriad of rules that have been developed over the years to meet problems that experienc have shown are required are less important than those for than water or gas.work ?
Pehaps your knowledge of electrics in general has lead you to assume every one has the same knowledge, but if there were no regulation those with little knowledge will have the same right to do 240v work.
As someone else said many are @ a loss to understand 12v wiring requirments.
My thougts on this are if you want to risk your own or family lives due to possibly doing the wrong thing that is your choice, but @ a later date some else's liife may be at risk .
TESTING DOES NOT SHOW POTENTIAL PROBLEMS DUE TO FAULTY WORKMANSHIP , IT ONLY SHOWS THAT THE SYSTEM IS CORRECT & SAFE AT THE TIME OF TESTING.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 at 07:51

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2008 at 07:51
Hi Oldtrack

I try not to comment on things I have little experience with like gas etc.

You may have missed the reasoning behind the concern.

It was demonstrated that those countries with less electrical regulation had better saftey records, not worse.

I could not support a system of regulation that does not have saftey as a prime driver.
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