Filling gas bottles.

Not in country SA tanker fills pub @ hospital bulk cylinders same trip I fill my barby cylinder from mycar tank for years now had no prob with the gas.

Not in country SA tanker fills pub @ hospital bulk cylinders same trip I fill my barby cylinder from mycar tank for years now had no prob with the gas.

I don't see the danger, it is being done in the open air, the cylinder is in the open, not enclosed. Can it be any more dangerous than filling a car with petrol?
Please unwrap the cotton wool!!!!

I know i'm gonna get hounded, but what's new?

Krakka

Hi Krakka,

Open air is probably good, but when you hear stories of people filling them through car windows into enclosed spaces or under tarps etc then I see that as not a good idea.

Cheers Brian

Surely it can't be more dangerous than filling fuel into a jerry?

Tim_C

Surely you can't be serious?

I would feel reasonably comfortable (given a choice) to be standing in front of a container of petrol and set it alight, than to be doing remotely the same thing with gas. The expansion rate of gas is the killer not so much the ignition.

When I did my gas fitters license training, we did some very surprising experiments to ensure we all had a visual grasp on the dangers of gas.

Whilst petrol can be dangerous given the right circumstances, Gas will almost always be lethal in the same circumstances. We are lucky to be able to handle gas the way we do due to the safety built into the devices and storage facilities we use. Don't take gas for granted. Obviously LPG, Nat and mixtures behave differently but in general be very careful.
Liquid fuels are so much safer for us mere mortals because they remain a liquid at normal temps where the previous gases turn from liquid to vapour at much cooler temps and thus it is this that usually is the problem.

LPG is heavier than air so it easily fits into the low spaces in cars and ute trays and if settled will go un-noticed until it's too late. Natural is lighter so it's danger is the inside roof areas of cars where it will get trapped, but is less likely to do so.

I know we are over regulated, but there are some areas where it makes sense. I would like to see the "service stations" not lose the ability to fill your bottles just to save a few dollars on cheap labour. We already have enough cash receivers why lose skills just for that.

My advice with gas is, do what you want, but do it by yourself away from anyone else.

That way we can blame the accident on the fault of the appliance and not the dumb operator doing the wrong thing, as no-one was there to see you.

Cheers Cam

Thanks Cam, I am aware of what is called BLEVE (pronounced 'blevvy') or Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion which poses a very significant risk when liquified gas catches fire but it seems odd that you can refill the LP gas cylinder in your car, but not a free-standing or loose LP gas cylinder. I just question if the risk during refilling is that high? Does gas have a higher risk of catching fire during refilling than petrol?

Petrol is particularly hazardous because of the static electricity build-up during filling/pouring, particularly amongst the vapours which are 'stirred up' in the same procees. The fuel tank in the car is well earthed to prevent static electricity build-up and the pump nozzle is almost always in contact with the car while fuelling. A jerry however, is invariably electrically isolated which poses a huge risk - this is why they must be filled on the ground (ie. not in the car) and more importantly, the metal part of the nozzle of the bowser must be in constant contact with the jerry at all times during filling. I'm not aware of static electricity posing such a significant risk for refilling gas cylinders.

It's been said that the captains of Navy vessels are happy to carry a range of munitions but are deathly scared of carrying a single jerry full of ULP due to its volatility.

It's not that CO's of warships are scared of carrying a single jerry of ULP. It is by regulations that liquid fuel with a flashpoint less than 61.5.C is not permitted to be carried.
Naval aviation fuel is differetnt to that, the two junior services use in there wokka's (rotary winged aircraft), it is far more stable and has the higher flashpoint that meets the regulations.
Except in an emergency, wokka's containing a lower flashpoint fuel are not permitted to land on a RAN vessel.

Cheers,
Dion.

tim_c,

Petrol has an additive that helps prevent a static charge from building up when being pumped. There should be almost no chance of a static discharge occurring due to the fuel being pumped through a gas station hose.

KK

Thanks KK, my understanding was that the bowser nozzle is earthed by an earth connection built into the hose - that's why you need to have the nozzle in contact with the jerry at all times. I wasn't aware of any additive to reduce static electricity build-up. I understand it is still a danger, and that's why filling to glass or plastic containers (other than approved jerries) is strictly prohibited.

You are right Tim, the additive is just there to help dissipate any static build up due to pumping liquid through the hose. Different example and fuel type I know but can you imagine single point fuelling a 747 or even water ballast into a super tanker. The huge rate of flow and side wall friction of the liquid through a hose can generate huge amounts of static build-up. I have seen film of what looks like a lightening flash inside a super tanker tank caused by high rate of pumping water ballast. Static can build up almost anywhere in the right conditions. There should not be any static due to pumping at a service station but there could be from the tank / vehicle to the earthed filler hose.

KK

I agree with Kiwi

The New Zealanders are more advanced on this. Most fuel stations have a simple weigh and fill station amongst the bowsers where the attendant will fill your gas bottles.

Years ago when gas was first becoming popular garage stations here would often have a filling outlet next to their big tank for filling gas bottles. Not as advanced as in New Zealand with weighing facilities - they would just charge you to fill an entire bottle.

Yesterday - Wednesday - I saw a bloke pull into the Liberty servo at naval base (south of Fremantle) with 3 gas bottles looked like off a fork lift or posssibly from home and proceeded to fill them laying down in his trailer. Seemed the same as filling a car.

I have heard of people wanting to fill from their gas at home - problem is that is low pressure gas (same gas) and your car needs high pressure or a very large gas tank. I did read a guy in England had fitted a special gas compressor at home in his carport to refill his car. Now that would be an issue.

The gas is the same. Storage bottles are under high pressure and your house pipes are under low pressure for safety. I once bought a gas hot water system that was fitted for bottled gas and needed to get the jets changed to suit low pressure street mains.

David

got it in one there Dave G, dont want anyone to get cheap refils. those swap and go places are making a killing.

Yeah, in Perth it's $29 for a 9kg "swap and go" or $22.50 to wait for the fella at the camping shop to fill it up.

What a rip off!