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cryovac

Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:55

benq

Article Overview - Food & Water
One of the most important considerations when planning an outback trip is the selection of foods to take and the amount needed to keep everyone healthy and happy. View Full Article...
we would like to cryovac our meats before going away. can anyone tell us how long it will keep in the fridge and can we do veigies. thamk you
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AnswerID: 383088   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 13:38

Dunco (NSW) replied:

Depending on type of meat...some say...

But I keep meat in fridge for about 4-5 weeks....in freezer they say you can keep for over 12 months.

Vegies are the same....

I cut up half leg of ham and cryovac and freeze....last me ages.


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Dunco
Reply 1 of 7
AnswerID: 383090   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 13:59

Tenpounder (SA) replied:

Hi there. We have a Sunbeam machine, and its owners manual lists storage times, so a visit to your friendly retailer such as hardly normal will give you access to this (hopefully), or else you can visit http://vacuseal.com.au/skin1/images/vacuseal_catalogue.pdf and scroll to page 17 of the catalogue. I suspect all brands are in hte same ballpark when it comes to storage times, although they certainly aren't when it comes to prices (machines and bags/rolls!!!).
Hope this helps.
We use ours mostly for raw meat (frozen) and pre-cooked dishes like casseroles, etc. (also frozen). I am a great fan of vacuum packing especially for off road trips, with 10 days frozen meat/meals in the bottom of the fridge, and chilled vegs and salads in the top (we have a Two Zone on top of an Engel).

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Chris P (SA)
Reply 2 of 7
AnswerID: 383092   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 14:35

Member - joc45 (WA) replied:

My butcher who has done my cryovacing reckons that uncooked chicken should be used within a week; problem with listeria, apparently. Otherwise, 5-6 weeks is achieveable with red meats, including pork.
Both Woolies and Coles sell vac-packed cooked smoked chicken, which I use in stir-fries when camping. This keeps for many weeks unopened, as marked by the use-by date.
If you're getting it done by a butcher, some put the meat in plastic trays before vac-packing, which takes up valuable room in the fridge, so a quick word with him before he does it to not use trays is a good idea.
Some vegies carry reasonably well if kept cool (not refrigerated) if wrapped in newspaper, esp tomatoes, cabbage, cucumbers. Potatoes don't need refrigerating, but keep them cool and, importantly, dark, and not in plastic bags - a cloth bag works well. Onions also. The main idea with veges is to not let them sweat.
Gerry

Winderabandi Bay
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Beach Heaven - Winderabandi Bay, Ningaloo
Reply 3 of 7
FollowupID: 650709   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 14:46

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Hi Gerry. Very interested in your comment about smoked chicken: does it keep "for many weeks" just chilled (i.e. 5 degrees C) rather than frozen?
Thanks in advance

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Chris P (SA)
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FollowupID: 650714   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 15:29

Member - Ingo57 (NSW) posted:

Tenpounder,

We also use the cryvac'd smoked chicken that Gerry mentioned on our trips, we had It in our fridge for 3.5 weeks with no probs.
For our trips the Mrs always gets a "Smoked Ham Hock" (I think its called) this keeps for around 2 weeks in the fridge wrapped in a tea towel, great for lunch stops to slice a few layers and throw on some biscuits. Would probably last longer but is usually gone within 2 weeks.

benq,

When we cryvac we try to avoid bones in red meat for this shortens it's fridge life, otherwise red meat is good for 5 weeks. For cooked meals anything with onion or garilc will produce a gas and eventually starts blowing up the bag (If refrigerated) but is still good for around 2 weeks.
For sausages we freeze first and then cryvac, we have found they are good for around 2.5 weeks.
Fresh beans cryvac reasonably well but we havn't tried to many other vegies.
Again what Gerry does with his vegetables we do the same with the newspaper and this makes more room in the fridge.
We do not have the luxury of a freezer yet but we try to cycle our fridge around 1 or 2 degrees and have eaten cryvac'd meat 5 weeks old (refrigerated) with no probs. Hope this helps

Cheers



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If you always do what you've always done
You'll always get what you've always got
FollowUp 2 of 5
FollowupID: 650729   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 16:32

Member - joc45 (WA) posted:

Hi Tenpounder,
I always check the use-by date when buying, but it's usually around 6 weeks from manufacture. Obviously, once it's opened, you have to eat it within a reasonable time. I slice it up, quickly stir-fry some carrots, diced onions and some greens, maybe some chillie or sweet chillie sauce, then thow in the chicken and some oyster sauce, bring back the heat and voila!
I recommend keeping the fridge at about 2deg rather than 5deg, just to be sure.

Ingo57 is right about bones - it reduces the storage life, so try to get red meat which is boned. This also means that the valuable fridge space is not taken up with useless bones.
cheers, Gerry

Winderabandi Bay
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Beach Heaven - Winderabandi Bay, Ningaloo
FollowUp 3 of 5
FollowupID: 650842   Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 at 09:31

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Thanks, Gerry for that info. Its nice to find another soul with an interest in proper food whilst out and about!! The person who makes room for chlli sauce and oyster sauce in their planning has my greatest respect!

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Chris P (SA)
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FollowupID: 650858   Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 at 11:57

Member - joc45 (WA) posted:

Hi Tenpounder, actually I keep a whole range of herbs and spices in old film cannisters (hard to get now!) which are kept in a tackle box. It stores well and there's always the right spice for the recipe.
No point if slumming it when camping!!
cheers,
Gerry
Winderabandi Bay
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AnswerID: 383102   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 15:45

Member -Dodger replied:

We cryovac our meat and veges in meal lots and keep it in the Engel up to 5 weeks without a problem at fridge temps 3 Deg C.
By doing it in meal lots, it allows us to change the menu at a whim and also keeps any blood etc at bay. Just open any meat about 15 minutes before cooking to allow time to re-breath etc.
We also pre cook stews etc then when cool cryovac same for reheating as required.
You will find with a little experimentation there are numerous items one can vac/pac for use at another date. We have even done scone mix this way and it sure downsizes the package for storage.

.
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Regards Dodg.
Reply 4 of 7
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AnswerID: 383107   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 16:05

Flywest replied:

Depends is the answer,

Ran a small deer farm and venison supply business to 60 odd SW restaurants for about 8 years or so, and managed not to kill anyone "Garabandi style" with food poisoning - by being on the conservative side with use by dates on product.

How long it will last depends on things like:-

1. The process of meat handling from slaughter onwards.
2. The Ph of the meat when packed
3. Whether carcass freshwater washed at slaughter
4. Whether smoked (Because its usually brine pumped first)
5. How much air is removed in the cryovac process
6. How steady the temp within the refrigerator (how frequently the doors opened and closed.

6 weeks was considered a max use by date for refrigerated - 4 weeks is safer.

6 weeks is in a cold store room where temp remains constant and doors aren't opened all day every day, 4 weeks in a normal household refrigerator where the doors open and closed all day every day.

For me - a traveling fridge, where conditions might not be "ideal", 3 weeks tops.

Frozen cryo packed - 6 months to be safe - but 12 months possibly.

Getting back to 1 above - handling of carcass at slaughter, - this affects the ph and longevity of the meat for cryovac storage. An unstressed animal at slaughter will not display any evidence of ecymosis, or blood spotting, which shows up usually first in the liver in mild cases and then other muscles especially those around the inside of the chest cavity, diaphragm - (eye of fillet).

Stressed animals at slaughter - where even slight ecymosis is evident, won;t keep as well in cryovac because usually the Ph of the overall carcass will be elevated, and this can provide a better environment for bacteria to culture.

Next - the cleanliness of evisceration - a good slaughter man will effectively remove the urinary tract including the whole gall bladder un-ruptured and, in the same way will remove the entire anus and colon etc tying it in a knot to prevent spillage, and then take out all the stomach contents in one go without puncturing the stomach and spilling any grass contents on the carcass itself. If at the same time he removes the throat and ties it off and avoids spillage there as well - all the potential contamination points for the carcass are eliminated.

This means a carcass can be produced with minimal bacterial contamination, and where this is achieved - then much reduced use if freshwater to wash out the insides of the carcass is then reqiuired.

Fresh watre is full of bacteria that can potentially start the bacterial decay process of the carcass.

All of these potential contamination sources - increase the rate at which bacteria can multiply within the cryovac bag oxygen deprived environment.

Less contaminated carcass - that's hygienically handled thru the butchering process lasts longer in cryovac than, one that didn;t fare so well in the slaughter process.

The same slaughter men team at an abattoir might handle 5 or 6 hundred carcasses a day - and even being as skilled as they are, they might get 9 out of 10 animals thru the chain process without spillage or contamination - but there will always be the odd animal where spillage of gut content etc - even tho thoroughly washed will still contaminate the carcass with bacterial source that will result in quicker rate of spoilage than the one next to it where no gut content spillage and minimal washing as a result afterward occurred leads to less contamination.

Me - after years at the abbs putting the deer thru each week - and after doing my own on farm slaughter for household needs - can tell the difference in taste of a carcass that's been contaminated & one that hasn't - that digested grass taste - is hard to remove even with thorough washing.

Slaughter men pride themselves on NOT contaminating carcasses - but we are all human and errors occur occasionally that lead to contamination.

Me doing just one carcass for farm consumption can take my time and be extra careful with every step of the process, so as to avoid contamination - buut its a lot different forthe guy earning a living as a slaughterman who will produce maybe 15 or more carcasses in the time it takes me to do one.

Within that 15 carcasses - he might contaminate one by accident - a slip with the knife is all it takes, in either the skinning ir evisceration process.

Hard as it might be to believe this treate,ent affects the longevity of the meat you put in your cryovac process.

Max storage times has to allow for the worst case scenario / contamination at slaughter or butchering stage i.e. the lowest common denominator.

Lots of red meat will last 6 weeks cryovac sealed in a refrigerator in ideal conditions from stat to finish - but some of it wont and its the ones that won't which have to set the limit on length of storage.

Hope that hasn't put anyone off eating meat!

It's a good man who can slaughter his own meat (or worse work at an abattoir) and still eat meat!

Overall its not an entirely pleasant business, but if there weren't a special breed of men and woman who worked at abattoirs - we'd all be mightily hungry or tired of veges & mung beans!. ;o)

Cheers
Reply 5 of 7
FollowupID: 650727   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 16:27

Member - Ingo57 (NSW) posted:

Geeezuz flywest, that is enough to turn a meat eater into a Nancy boy!

In regards to 4. smoked... What's brine pumped??

Cheers

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FollowUp 1 of 3
FollowupID: 650730   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 16:44

Flywest posted:

Smoked meat is usually "pumped" bye a syringe filled with salty water (brine) before the cold smoking process. A typical 2 kilo muscle (Rump, Round, Silverside & Topside), before being smoked might be pumped with up to 750 mm's of salty water (brine) before smoking.

It helps preserve, adds flavor and helps retention of moisture thru the smoking process, not to mention that when it's done, your selling that water at anything up to $40 a kilo for "smoked venison". ;o)

Likewise, 2 of the leg muscle groups (Silverside & Topside) don't command as many $ per kilo as straight red meat steaks, compared to the Rump & Topside that everyone seems to like, when buying steak.

Smoke it and suddenly its not called a topside or silverside muscle, it's called "smoked venison", and commands the top $.

Bit like selling cows to the butchers at sale yard auctions, You get more for steers than heifers, but for some strannge reason - when you go to buy steak from the same butcher - its all the same price, you can't save a buck at the butcher by asking for a heifer steak! ;o)

Ahh the butchering trade - now theres a bunch of thieves & charlatans if ever their was one! LOL (Kidding - no disrespect to butchers, I've known quite a few and all were nice guys!).

Cheers
FollowUp 2 of 3
FollowupID: 650870   Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 at 14:28

Pete Jackman (SA) posted:

Last time I read the forum while eating my lunch at work!

Very informative post Flywest

Cheers

Pete

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AnswerID: 383145   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 19:43

Holden4th replied:

My vac packer is the best thing I ever bought for camping. I buy in bulk, vac pack and freeze. When I travel I put the frozen stuff into the bottom of my FF40 and cold food (beer especially) on top. I know that provided my frodge keeps working I have regular supply of fresh, safe food.

I also take my vac packer with me on longer trips so I can buy again and be assured that my food won't spoil/leak into the fridge/etc.

Vac packers can be bought for less than $100 with the Sunbeam being the most expensive (and seriously overpriced).

Check out vac packers from.

Eurolab

[url=http://www.crazysales.com.au/maxkon-vacuum-food-saver-preservation-heat-sealer-for-home-use-w-free-bags_p1006.html?gclid=CP6H55vl8JwCFY0vpAod7ibUjg]Maxkon{/url]



Reply 6 of 7
FollowupID: 650798   Submitted: Monday, Sep 14, 2009 at 22:13

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Well, Holden4th, I agree that the Sunbeam may be 'over priced' compared to some alternatives on the market, or again maybe it is about OK: there are several other brands that are significantly dearer than the Sunbeam (which is itself just a re-badged Italian machine). OK so there are some cheaper ones too.
Who knows where the quality versus price equation falls!!.
I suspect the cost of the consumables counts for more than than initial price of the machine, and the price of a Sunbeam machine is nothing compared to the first year's cost of bags!!!!!

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Chris P (SA)
FollowUp 1 of 6
FollowupID: 650908   Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 at 19:02

Holden4th posted:

I've found a local kitchen supply shop here on the Gold Coast that sells vac pack bags at a very good rate. You can get one hundred 20x28 cm bags for less than $50 and they work well. They also have two other sizes (smaller and larger - 39 and 69 bucks respectively) and all are good value.

Now if they made a machine at a decent price that could use the ones your butcher uses then that would be the way to go.
FollowUp 2 of 6
FollowupID: 650960   Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 16, 2009 at 05:47

Member - Mike DID posted:

I use the ALDI machine and bags and find them excellent - for half the price of the Sunbeam equivalents.
Mike R
FollowUp 3 of 6
FollowupID: 650969   Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 16, 2009 at 08:34

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Hi there. Thanks you both ofr thetips on cheaper sources for bags. I have tried smooth tube (ie smooth both sides) and it was a disaster, so its good the have some other ideas.

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Chris P (SA)
FollowUp 4 of 6
FollowupID: 651245   Submitted: Thursday, Sep 17, 2009 at 21:28

Member - Phil G (SA) posted:

Chris,

Master Butchers on Chruchill Rd Kilburn will sell you the bags. Last lot I got were $35 for 100. Make sure you say what machine you have - not all those bags are suitable for the vacuum packer machines.
Mt Finke
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FollowupID: 651285   Submitted: Friday, Sep 18, 2009 at 08:20

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Thanks, Phil, that's really useful - and local too!!

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Chris P (SA)
FollowUp 6 of 6
AnswerID: 383973   Submitted: Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 19:35

ExplorOz - David & Michelle replied:

Sorry for hijacking this post with another question - have always taken freshly croyvac meat on trips but does anyone have an opinion or experience relating to the notion of taking already frozen portions of meat out of the home freezer and cryovacing them and then letting them defrost in the cryovac bag at fridge temps. Basically, I have beef that I didn't think to cryovac any of it before freezing into portions and now I want to take some on a trip. I'll only take the portions without bones. The reason is, I don't like to run my engel as a freezer but if I let it all defrost in the fridge it will need to be eaten within 3 days. I was thinking if I cryovaced it whilst it was frozen it would last the 10 days.
Thanks Michelle (MM)
David & Michelle
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David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
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Reply 7 of 7
FollowupID: 651768   Submitted: Monday, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:52

benq posted:

hi David and Michelle, we have never done this. when caravaning we always use the engel as freezer. Since we want to camp this time around it would be good to know if some one has done it. We do have frozen meat that we would like to tlake along. hopefully there is some kinowledge around this forum for us. we ll be waiting for it. have a safe trip where ever you are going and enjoy.
Christine and Gerry
FollowUp 1 of 5
FollowupID: 651769   Submitted: Monday, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:00

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Hi David & Michelle. We have been doing just what you say for years (literally) We freeze fresh (raw) meat and also prepared cooked food (in plastic trays), and then Vacuum pack when frozen. However, I would be wary of food that has not been kept airtight after freezing, particularly where oxidation of meat may have occurred in the home freezer.
Take care with sharp edges! I use a nutmeg grater on any dubious edges (e.g. where a plastic tray has been used as a mould during freezing.
Incidentally, I favour freezing before vacuuming simply because this eliminates the issue of blood/juices getting into the welding area (or even into the guts of the machine) and messing up the process (or the machine!).
Hope thsi helps.

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Chris P (SA)
FollowUp 2 of 5
FollowupID: 651770   Submitted: Monday, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:09

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

PS the Sunbeam Foodsaver instruction book specifically RECOMMENDS freezing before vacuuming, to preserve shape and the retail juices.

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Chris P (SA)
FollowUp 3 of 5
FollowupID: 651771   Submitted: Monday, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:09

Tenpounder (SA) posted:

Sorry: "to retain juices"

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Chris P (SA)
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FollowupID: 651914   Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 at 11:45

ExplorOz - David & Michelle posted:

Thanks Chris - its great to hear first hand from someone that does it and lives to tell the tale! It just seems logical to me that this would be ok but I take your point regarding oxidation - its been stored in Tupperware and snap lock bags so should be ok. Also, my beef came from Narrogin (a few hours from home) and was killed, hung and cut by the butcher for me to order and the day I got it home I packed and froze it. You couldn't get any fresher than that so unlike supermarket purchased meat I have knowledge of how its been handled sufficiently to satisfy me to give this a try. As I've only got a few days till we leave, I think I'll buy the Sunbeam (we don't have Aldi in WA) as its so readily available. Cherio! Michelle
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