Investigation reslts into Banka Banka Caravan Fire

'knee jerk' action/s or not, in this day and age of litigation, public liability, work place safe work requirements etc etc what else would you expect from the management particularly if the recommendations resulting from the investigation found such short comings. If it means less spaces, so be it, perhaps it could also result in safer environment for users.

I hear what you're saying DIO and agree it's certainly no surprise.

However, I don't think a 6m "exclusion zone" would have prevented this incident (nor is it likely to prevent similar incidents in the future) as it seems to have been ignited by the camper's OWN gas fridge. A 6m exclusion zone would, at best, only limit the exposure to adjacent campers, which again, doesn't seem to have been an issue in this incident.

I would happily support a "knee jerk" reaction if it was actually targetted at the problem, and therefore might actually protect people.

Timbo,

I think you will find that the "exclusion" zone is just for that....so the neighbours van wouldn't go up as well.

Fred,

If you have a close look at one of the photos I believe you can see a black gerry on the A Frame....and if it swelled up, I would therefor believe it to be plastic

I was thinking the same thing Dunco. With the container restricted around it's girth, it would have been an eruption of fuel as soon as the cap came off.
Interesting to see what comes of it.

I have two plastic fuel containers on the A frame of the mowing trailer and during warm to hot conditions (and it doesn't take much ie spring) the 10 litre black container billows out like a balloon and the cap has to be taken off very carefully before you can get it out of the holder. The 20 litre red container does not billow out and whilst there is some pressure, no where near as much as the 10 litre. I suspect it is the colour that is attracting the heat.

Cheers

Mark

It certainly happens with the steel ones too.
The carriers on the front of the Getaway are made to ensure a snug fit. Even on a normal 20* day the jerrycan expands (diesel not so bad) making it impossible to remove without relieving the pressure.
The problem there is that the catch has to be completely released before the lid can lift at all therefore causing the outrush of fuel. Some sort of pressure release vent (as on the red containers) would be the answer.
furph

Could not agree more Hairy (NT). If a Jerry Can is built to hold 5 or 10litres thats all that should be put in it, allow room for expansion in hot weather.
The powers that be should realize it was a terrible accident and not come up with a typical kneejerk reaction by by coming up with a 6mrtre exclusion zone.
We left Banka Banka the same morning the accident happened and i don,t think i would have like to have been parked 6metres from the Van and Vehicle when it was going up in smoke.
Education is the answer.
Just my thoughts .
DUKE

I agree.

Petrol doesn't expand signficantly when hot - but the Vapour Pressure increases dramatically.

If the can is overfilled, the out rush of vapour when pressurised will splash out fuel.

But even if there had been a controlled release of the vapours, it still would have exploded when it reached the fridge pilot light.

Scott,

1. I hope you and your family have no long term affects from this accident and you get to travel once again.

2. Thankyou for sharing your experience here so that others may learn and that all other reasons for this accident are finally dispelled.

You are what I call a fair dinkum bloke as you have the balls to get up and speak of your errors. Good on you mate and once again I hope you and your family all heal 100 %


Cheers
Gary

Good to see you and the family whilst a little singed are all OK.

No doubt it frightened the hell out of you all and it will take sometime for the kids to get over it.

Hope you get it all sorted and get back out on the road soon.

Cheers

Thank god you are all OK. Fire is one of the things that really freak me out. I cant imagine how awful it was for you and your family to have to lose your car, caravan and all your stuff. But at least the unreplaceable (you, your wife and kids) are still here! Lets hope we all learn something in regard to the dangers of fuel and fire. I hope it doesnt take you too long to get ready to take off once again. My best wishes are with you all. Danielle

Scott,

Thanks for letting us all know about this..... as said above, at least you all are relatively OK. It could have been worse.

I for one have read this thread thoroughly and like to think I have learnt from it, your experience may save me and mine one day!

Best wishes for you and your family, hope you recover fully and soon!

Regards

Brian

Good on ya Scott, for taking time out to come on here and tell us what happened. Lot's there for us all to learn from.
Hope you and your wife get over your injuries really quickly, and you can get back out there soon. Your obviously a tough bloke so hang in there.
Good to see the people out there responded as only Aussies can, and will.
Your plight will be a major conversation topic at the forthcoming St. George ExplorOz gathering I am sure mate, in a couple of weeks time.

Take Care.

Fred.

Hi Scott ... any chance of dropping me an email, please. Thnx

Hi Scott

My wife and I would like to wish both you, your wife and kids our best wishes and speedy recovery from what is a truly traumatic event.

All the best with your further treatment.
Cheers

Ray Moore

Hi guys,
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement.
We are all heeling well. Went to the burns unit again yesterday and I may be just out of the woods on a skin graft, though full movement in the right arm may still be in doubt. Alive though and very happy about it.

I am keen to get back in the travel saddle, but the wife is not so keen with memories rather raw.

Looking around for a new 80 series factory turbo with little luck. It is the contents, which were not insured which hurts most as we figure we have lots a good 80K odd.

Something which occured to me last night was that this could also happen to the indoor caravan fridge on gas if you open the fuel near the bottom vent and the natural air flow was to draw vapour through to the pilot. Do you guys think this can happen. Perhaps a 12 volt conmpressor fridge is a safer option?

Cheers
Scott

Hi Scott,

Sorry, didn't include an email in my previous post. Can u contact me please at dennisamor@bigpond.com (Don't worry, I'm not trying to sell you anything!).
dennis

"Something which occured to me last night was that this could also happen to the indoor caravan fridge on gas if you open the fuel near the bottom vent and the natural air flow was to draw vapour through to the pilot. Do you guys think this can happen."

Definitely yes, it only takes a 2% fuel vapour in air to be explosive.

But the solution is so cheap and so simple - enclose the flame in the fridge in wire gauze like a Miner's Safety Lamp.

I wonder how service station explosions are caused by someone driving in with their gas fridge running ? In a servo a naked light is illegal, using a mobile phone is illegal - is it illegal to drive in with a gas fridge on ?

I doubt whether any domestic fire extinguisher would've handled this fire....would've had to have foam I suspect...but I am sure someone will add to this.

Rossco & Dunco, from what Scott said (above: reply 8), the usual car fire extinguisher was of little value in this situation.

While foam extinguishers are one of the best types for liquid-fueled fires, a few years back I did a quick Fire Brigade course in fire extinguishers. We were told that the foam extinguishers at servos and on fuel tankers are only used in case of a spill with no fire. The foam is quickly sprayed onto the fuel to provide a covering to trap the vapours until the spill can be cleaned up ie. to reduce the risk a fire (ie. spark igniting the vapours). They said that in the event of a fire, using that little foam extinguisher will be futile and you'd be better off getting yourself away from there.

Obviously, a tanker/servo has much larger quantities of fuel than a jerry, but it's 'fuel' for thought anyway...

I posted the questions because when I was in the Airfarce we did a fire fighting refresher every year. This included putting out liquid fires using the foam method. I'm very hazy on this, but basically involved putting the foam onto the liquid at an angle so that it created a new pool on top without splashing everywhere until there was no oil exposed; hence smothering it's air supply.

However, I always wondered how effectively a fuel fire could be controlled when it's not conveniently pooled on a flat surface.

I also wonder if Van's and Motorhome's should have a very large extinguisher mounted somewhere externally with a long hose that someone can use to save the lives of occupants inside it or the car (if a van). It seems most are now fitted with the luxury of gas bottles, large water tanks, battery banks etc. Can they also accommodate extra kilo's in life saving equipment? Unless you get a fire out early, I don't believe for a second that a 2kg bottle mounted somewhere in the kitchenette will save even a small van in a disaster.

jmho

Ah, it all makes sense now! Being in the Air Force, they most likely require you to be an expert in dealing with liquid-fuel fires. That's very different to the volunteer rural fire service where they taught us to deal with dry/solid-fuel fires and said "leave the liquid-fuel fires up to the pros". See also Reply 10 by Jezz (below) where he says "The ability to effectively lay foam is a art in itself." I assume he specifically means once the fire has taken hold:
If you are preventing a liquid-fuel fire you might have a chance to go back and cover and areas you missed the first time.
But if the liquid-fuel has already caught fire and you "miss a bit" with the foam, you can end up just splitting the fire sending it in different directions, or you can even have one spring up behind you. The technique is to "corner" the fire, preferably on the first attempt, but most importantly: without leaving any gaps in the foam cover.
It can be done, but it's not something that any average-bloke-in-the-street should attempt without some training (preferably including some practice in controlled and supervised situations). Most of us are better off just getting ourselves far away - a much easier choice when it concerns a $30k caravan, but not really an option for a liquid-fuel fire under a $XXXm figher jet on an aircraft carrier during a mission!

Actually I'd like to discuss a pressure relief valve for plastic jerry cans that are built into the caps...does such a thing exist? I have an idea.

Well, if it could be constructed to only allow excess air out and block fluid. Otherwise on overfilled jerry will be leaving a 'Die Hard' fuel trail.

Yeah I've thought about that, and probably for that reason they wouldn't be allowed. I'm still going to have a think about it though.

Probably a really bad idea!

The container will continually leaking petrol fumes if there is any upwards change in temperature.

Petrol vapours are far more explosive that petrol in a liquid form (one of the components of fire is the presence of oxygen; the ratio of oxygen to fuel is significantly increased when the fuel is in vapour form).

Somebody walks past the jerry can on a hot day with a cigarette in their hand and Quit has lost a possible member

The petrol smell would permeate everything even worse than a sealed can does.

OK then, sealed jerry with a pre-release manual valve the user operates to equalize pressure safely before opening lid. Valve still blocks liquid, and possibly has component which condenses/collects the fuel component of the vapor. I think we're moving into the realm of replacements for common sense.

Simpler to put a line on the container at 80% capacity with big fat letters “DO NOT FILL ABOVE THIS POINT”

Stop the “The service station at…… ripped me off” posts too

My metal Jerry cans have the "raised mark" on the side showing the maximum fill level, so would think most would have the same feature ??

Maîneÿ . . .

I understand that the vapour is more "explosive" than the actual liquid, but the picture I had in my mind was kind of like a screw on cap (similar to what is on those plastic jerry cans) that had some sort of solid filter or 3-stage filter to block liquid and dissipate the combustible content of the vapour to the point of it being harmless at the point it was vented.

Of course, all this is good in theory, in practice it may be a failure. Just an idea anyway.

Road warrior - you could easily just have a separate expansion chamber like the fuel tank in your car has, or else you could do what Nargun and the jerry manufacturers suggest and not fill past the line that says “DO NOT FILL ABOVE THIS POINT” - it's not just there for decoration! There MUST be space (air) left to allow for expansion. This is because liquid cannot be compressed, but gas/air can, so as the temperature (and therefore the volume) increase, the liquid must either stretch the container or leak out, but the gas/air can be compressed and occupy the same space (or less space due to the expansion of the fuel) although at an increased pressure.

I often wondered the same as Nargun also when it comes to "...the “The service station at…… ripped me off” posts too"!

I only ever fill my jerries based on the pump reading ie. if 20L jerry, only fill 20L from the pump (it also makes it easier to keep track of fuel consumption figures). They still swell in the heat, but if you loosen the cap and let the pressure equalise before removing the cap completely then no liquid will spray out.

" dissipate the combustible content of the vapour to the point of it being harmless at the point it was vented. "

- that's not possible. A 2% fuel vapour / air mixture is explosive.

Unfortunately a fuel vapour / air mixture of MORE THAN 8% will not explode, which leads people into a false sense of security about how dangerous petrol fumes are.

If you store powder extinguishers horizontally, the car's movement will slosh the powder around, preventing compacting.

Not entirely prevent, Mike, but will reduce the compaction.
They still need to be given a 'shake up' on a regular basis.

That's advice directly from an old CAMS publication on fire safety.

When Davey invented the Safety Lamp, there were no batteries or electric light that could be used underground !!!

The Miners Safety Lamp was the only source of light for Miners for countless decades.