WARNING dangerous inverters

Submitted: Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 10:38

ThreadID: 81560 Views:40703 Replies:8 FollowUps:24

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Dotrill

Wish to warn on the dangers of cheap 12 to 240V inverters
Having experienced first hand the tragedy of cheap inverters, and wishing to pass this information on to others. Death of a loved one that could easily be avoided. Unnecessary death is a long lasting tragic event to the family and friends left behind. A caravaners forum deleted this vital information and posted a message it was not true and I was a spammer. I dont joke about matters as serious as this. I am a retired HV electrical engineer.

Issue 1) There is no Australian Standard for inverters
Issue 2) Many cheap inverters are not electrically isolated
Issue 3) Some of the cheap inverters sold as sine wave on ebay are not sine wave
Issue 4) Term used by some on ebay 'pure wave' is meaningless
Issue 5) The caravan, motorhome or camper trailer can be charged with 240V through the battery system because the inverter is not electrically isolated from the 12 to 240V side. This is what caused the death we experienced
Issue 6) Many are not aware but inverters that are not electrically isolated are not to be used in some states in public places.
There are inexpensive inverters in both sine wave and modified square wave that are electrically isolated from the 12V to 240V. Brand that springs to mind for inexpensive units is Jaycar or Powertech brand. In the better quality sine wave units Latronics, Selectronics, Sinergex, Victron. Inverters that are electrically isolated will have the information on the box.
Having experienced the death first hand of a camper from a cheap ebay inverter failing it is the last thing I want others to experience. I have since heard of another recent case in Victoria.
Is your life or the life of a loved one worth the meager saving of buying an item that is not safe. Please consider carefully your electrical purchases. Please check with your friends to see if the inverter they may be using is electrically isolated. I have written to all state authorities to get inverters that are not electrically isolated banned.

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Reply By: Member - Don M- Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 10:51

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 10:51

Dottrill,

I am a retired electrical engineer and I would like you explain to me EXACTLY how said person died as a result of the inverters not being electrically isolated...????

AnswerID: 431444

Follow Up By: Member - Crazy Dog (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 11:51

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 11:51

Interesting...

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/energysafety/PDF/Publications/unsafe_inverters.pdf

Grrr!!!

FollowupID: 702208

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:21

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:21

Hi Crazy dog

Yes it was shortly after that. that the use of non isolated inverters on building & construction sites was banned in all states
Unfortunately the sale of these dangerous devises was not banned until much later

As far as I am aware, NO PUBLIC warning WAS or ever has been issued.

MANY ARE STILL OUT THERE BEING USED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT AWARE OF THE RISKS .

FollowupID: 702213

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:28

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:28

HI DON

I am sure that you as an electrical engineer should be able to work out the circumstances of how this can occur
The facts are that is HAS occurred on several occasions ,& no one knows just how many minor shocks may have.

OCCURRED NOT HEARSAY!!

FollowupID: 702214

Follow Up By: Dotrill - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:42

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:42

Don when the Coroners Report becomes available will make sure it is posted here. The electrical report has been finalised and sent to the Coroner. Waiting for the matter to go before the Coroner.
With you been an electrical engineer you would know how many ways this could happen.

FollowupID: 702221

Reply By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:12

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:12

Hi Dotril
I am sorry to here of your loss PLEASE accept my condolances.

THANK you for bringing this to light.

MANY deaths have occurred in industry

ALL inverters[including fully isolated] used in bulding & construction must now be fitted with a PERMANENT RCD[safety switch'] THIS also includes generaters

It has long been accepted accepted that non isolated inverters are death traps
& the sale of them was banned in AUS about 3<4years ago.

Unfortunately many of those sold would still be in use.

Buying from Ebay does mean that equipment may not comply with AUS regs.

I have tried to point out the dangers of ALL inverters many times on many forums.
Unfortunately I often get the reply ""I have being one for years & nothing has happened"

Many seem to believe that the fully isolated units are safe

THEY ARE NOT, if a fault developes anywhere in the system between one line & earth the system is then no different to the set up that caused your loss
Under the right circumstances the next fault could be through someones body

THE ONLY safe 240V supply is one fitted with a fully operational RCD or the newer RVD
Also be aware that a van etc RCD [safety switch], if fitted,is not operational if the inverter is plugged into the van supply socket

AnswerID: 431451

Follow Up By: Dotrill - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:24

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:24

"the sale of them was banned in AUS about 3<4years ago."
Unfortunately the sale of non isolated inverters is not banned. Reason have written to all state and territory authorities to get non isolated inverters banned.

"Buying from Ebay does mean that equipment may not comply with AUS regs." Presently there is no Australian Standard for inverters.

The PDF link supplied by a poster states correctly from the Dept of Consumer and Employment Protection "The Standards Committee responsible for AS/NZS 3012 has decided that, as no standard exists for inverters"

FollowupID: 702217

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:14

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:14

Hi Dotrill

Re:

"" Unfortunately the sale of non isolated inverters is not banned. Reason have written to all state and territory authorities to get non isolated inverters banned

I may be wrong but I believe your info may be out of date. I doubt you will find any non isolated inverters on sale IN AUS

Ebay imports are a different matter

RE :Buying from Ebay does mean that equipment may not comply with AUS regs." Presently there is no Australian Standard for inverters.

Perhaps as yet no Aus Standards but still state regulations can forbid the sale/
use of any product
,Which I believe has happened in this case

RE : ""
The PDF link supplied by a poster states correctly from the Dept of Consumer and Employment Protection "The Standards Committee responsible for AS/NZS 3012 has decided that, as no standard exists for inverters""

The date on that link is 2004 hardly up to date

I am not trying to discredit your posts & I agree with your concerns 100%

The use wide spread of portable inverters & gennys, by the Rvers, has caught the regulators unaware I believe
It was expected by many that the last revision of AS/NZS 3001 would tackle the problem but they did not

Peter

FollowupID: 702224

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:39

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:39

Hi All
There is an AUST standard:
it's "AS 4763:2006 (ammended 2009) Safety of Portable Inverters"

Not sure what is in it. need some $s out of the pension to buy one

Peter

FollowupID: 702230

Follow Up By: Racey - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 17:21

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 17:21

Hi Everyone,

The issues of non-isolated inverters was bought to the attention of the Electrical Safety Committee (EL-2) in 2005 following a death on a building site. If my memory serves me correctly, the issue was a person coming contact between the output (230V) and the 12volt input side, e.g. the body of a vehicle. At this time there was no Australian Standard covering PORTABLE Inverters. It was agreed that this was an important and urgent issue. The normal process of producing a new standard could take 2-3 years depending on the public comment and revisions. Because of the urgency it was agreed by the committee to publish an Interim Standard without going through the normal public comment stage. The interim standard would provide all manufacturers and importers a sound document on which to base their products. AS4763 covers portable inverters up to 3kva, Output 50-500VAC, 40-100Hz and was published on 20th Oct 2006. The Standard call for public comment to be considered for inclusion or otherwise into a full standard (non-interim). The 2009 amendment extended the public comment date to 20th Oct 2010.

Buying these devices on Ebay is clearly risky as regardless of the claims and labeling we are never sure what is going on inside. Known brands purchased from know suppliers is the only way to go.

Cheers

Racey

Member
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FollowupID: 702255

Follow Up By: Dotrill - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:23

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:23

Oldtrack my SAA book shows nothing for inverters, but thankfully Racey's post has the good oil. Been retired my SAA books our a little dated and did not look in the updated appendix.

From my research in looking in stores inverters sold by DSE Electronics and all the cheap MSW inverters are not electrically isolated. The boxes dont state electrical isolation and inverters that are always state that. Suggest you start asking as it will be an interesting exercise. Even if there was a formalised Australian Standard they would still be allowed to import non electrically isolated inverters and sell the inverters, the onus would be on the purchasers not to use them. Oldtrack do you remember CB radios in Australia. The shops were allowed to sell them but purchasers were not allowed to use them. Same as explosive power tools, you can purchase the tools, but not allowed to use them unless you have a license. We sure have some crazy laws in Aus.

FollowupID: 702265

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 19:26

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 19:26

Hi Dotrill
I'll have to check tricky dicky but i believe alll Jaycar inverters are now fully isolated
IF you search most state elecricity acts you will find that it is illegal to sell non approved low voltage [240v] electrical equipment

It's just that sometimes the importer does not get caught or is unaware of the requirements

An example of this was Bunnings selling imported ext leads with a 10amp plug & a 15amp socket
They are still in the online catoloue the last time I looked ,but are not now available for sale. NOT APPROVED, ILLEGAL, NOT in accordance with the AUS standards

Peter

FollowupID: 702275

Reply By: Member - Warwick D (SA) - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:31

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:31

Greetings, great post, thank you for having the courage to post it.There were several/many examles of severe inury and death posted on medscape/pathology sites in past years. I am no longer practicing, but do remember the numbers being reported increasing with the availability of these devices a few ytears ago. WD

AnswerID: 431452

Reply By: Dotrill - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:30

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 13:30

Very sad to make a post containing correct information and this is the way the post was treated and removed by the board administrators on another forum. Message posted was basically the same message posted. I was correct on every account. Thanks to the member here that advised I should join and post on Exploroz.

I do ask members here to please check any inverter they may own and use and to convey the message to their family and friends. Only use an inverter that is electrically isolated.

Re: Inverter - 12 volt Plug Question
by Peter_n_Margaret on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 am

Ozzietravelers wrote:
Dotrill wrote:
Issue 1) ....... you appear to have to some knowledge of this subject.

I don't think so.....spammer, I reckon....... he is WRONG on EVERY count.
Cheers,
Peter

AnswerID: 431457

Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 15:42

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 15:42

Dotrill, your post on Caravanners was in fact substantially different from that posted here.

Cheers,
Peter

FollowupID: 702242

Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 15:46

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 15:46

And I should add that if your post there had been of similar content to that here I and others would have reacted quite differently.
It is a terrible thing that has happened.

Cheers,
Peter

FollowupID: 702245

Follow Up By: Dotrill - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:12

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:12

Peter ask the admins to unhide my post and you will see it is the same points. You reacted because you did not believe what was posted and chose to deride the information without knowledge.

FollowupID: 702264

Follow Up By: zacc - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:56

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 18:56

How do you check your inverter if it does not have it writen on it?

FollowupID: 702270

Follow Up By: Cruiserman - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:03

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:03

David, if you could check your email you will find a PM from the admins there asking you to re-write your post and flesh it out with some substance.

It is no good bagging us when you don't play straight.

FollowupID: 702311

Reply By: Cruiser .- Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:14

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:14

Dotrill

Thanks for the heads up, but can you or anyone please explain how I as a Jo Average user can tell if my Inverter is electrically isolated

Cheers,

Cruiser

AnswerID: 431462

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:25

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:25

HI Cruiser

Not much use testing with a digital multi meter as the very low current they require to read could simply show a voltage which is not a problem.

Simplest way [BUT not 100% perfect] is to use a low wattage 240v test lamp
WARNING this can be dangerous if not very carefull

TEST between each active pin of the plug to earth pin,or cable to battery earth,
IF it lights up, even dull, get it checked by a competent electrician

Peter

FollowupID: 702227

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:30

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 14:30

Hi
You could also look for a rectangle within a rectangle symbol
This indicates double insulation

Peter

FollowupID: 702229

Follow Up By: harryopal - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:52

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:52

For someone like me who wouldn't know what was watt with his amps or his inverter, jump charger of wattever this kind of information is both alarming and confusing.
I have a Toyota Coaster motor home, recently bought, which has two batteries without and isolator. It has 12 volt interior lighting which is powered from the second battery.
Away from 240 volt power I would like to run my 12 volt, 3 way camper fridge, a laptop, 240 volt x 20 watt flourescent lamp and a laptop. And maybe a fan... either 12 or 240 volt.
What would be the most economical, safe way of doing this. (I have read of people being talked into very expensive inverters way beyond the relatively simply need of the buyer.)
I have tried reading the various posts on electrics and my brain turns to porridge. Now with this latest warning am really not sure which way to turn. So, thanks for the warning and some advice much appreciated.

FollowupID: 702320

Follow Up By: harryopal - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:57

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 21:57

For someone like me who wouldn't know what was watt with his amps or his inverter, jump charger or wattever this kind of information is both alarming and confusing.
I have a Toyota Coaster motor home, recently bought, which has two batteries without an isolator. It has 12 volt interior lighting which is powered from the second battery. It also has a 240 volt system properly fitted with safety switches and a plug in for taking power at a caravan park
Away from 240 volt power I would like to run my 12 volt, 3 way camper fridge, 240 volt x 20 watt flourescent lamp and a laptop. And maybe a fan... either 12 or 240 volt.
What would be the most economical, safe way of doing this. (I have read of people being talked into very expensive inverters way beyond the relatively simply need of the buyer.)
I have tried reading the various posts on electrics and my brain turns to porridge. Now with this latest warning am really not sure which way to turn. So, thanks for the warning and I would really appreciate some advice that would cover the use as I have described. Thanks in anticipation of responses.

FollowupID: 702321

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 22:21

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 22:21

Hi Harry

Your 3way camper fridge will drain your battery very quickly when the engine is not running, use it on gas when camped
You can get 12v adaptors that are more efficient than an inverter for charging /running your laptop

Fans are available in 12v

Not sure of the reason you want a 20w 240v flouro but again small work type are available in 12v

I would strongly suggest you give the 12v versions a thought before going to an inverter

If your thought are along the lines of plugging an inverter into your van power inlet socket so you can utilize the van power point,
I will say DO NOT DO IT

You would greatly increase the risk of something going wrong

Peter

FollowupID: 702326

Reply By: Member - Dunworkin (WA) - Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 22:31

Sunday, Sep 26, 2010 at 22:31

Please help me, after reading this thread I am very concerned about the inverter that we have, it doesn't have the rectangles (mentioned above) on the box, it doesn't have any warnings on it. I have no idea of watt watt is watt and after finishing reading this post I am totally confused. The inverter that we have comes from Dick Smith and it is 300w. In it's features it claims 'Modified Sine Wave'. The biggest concern for me now is whether it is safe or not as I wouldn't have a clue, we plug it into our cigarette lighter and charge up the camera batteries while we are traveling along, don't think I will be doing that again.

If anyone can tell me if this is one of the bad ones it would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Deanna

Simba, our much missed baby.

Lifetime Member
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AnswerID: 431532

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 13:37

Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 13:37

HI Deanna

The best place to start for info on your's being fully isolated is DS
If they do not seem to know what you are talking about ask them to find out & confirm writing.

Re : "The biggest concern for me now is whether it is safe or not as I wouldn't have a clue, we plug it into our cigarette lighter and charge up the camera batteries while we are traveling along, don't think I will be doing that again. ""

If it is fully isolated, charging or using anything within it's watts capacity that only has a 2pin plug is pretty safe

Your will not be able to utilize the 300watts capacity from a cig lighter socket.
Ran continuously at full load will burn out the lighter socket /wiring [draws about 25amps ]

Peter

FollowupID: 702393

Follow Up By: Member - Dunworkin (WA) - Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 21:21

Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 21:21

Thanks for your information Peter, I don't like my chances with DS knowing anything from previous experience but will definitely give it a try. I really don't know a thing about electrics apart from when I turn a switch lights go on etc.

Thanks again.

Deanna

Simba, our much missed baby.

Lifetime Member
My Profile Send Message

FollowupID: 702428

Reply By: brushmarx - Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:48

Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:48

I guess I'm not the only one with limited knowledge of inverters, and obviously don't want to experience tragedy through the use of one.
I have an Ebay inverter, and it is not pure Sine Wave.
The instructions suggested an earth strap connected to a metal spike driven into the ground was preferred.
I contacted the seller, and was told that was unnecessary in Australia, and was both impractical and a waste of time.
I need to drag it out of winter storage and check for isolation notices to see if any stickers are visible.
This idea of checking with a 240 volt low wattage bulb sounds feasible, but is the problem a "yes or no" type of testing, or if it tests OK now, can it develop into a potentially lethal power supply from being subjected to corrugations or rough handling?
Cheers
Ian

I'll get there someday, or die wanting to.

Member
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AnswerID: 431562

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 14:00

Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 14:00

Hi Ian

Your info was correct ."An earth stake is neither required OR recommended" by the AUS standards

If it is the non isolated type then that's it it is already dangerous

Re: "This idea of checking with a 240 volt low wattage bulb sounds feasible, but is the problem a "yes or no" type of testing, or if it tests OK now, can it develop into a potentially lethal power supply from being subjected to corrugations or rough handling?""
s
Yes if the test shows it is NOT the non isolated type then that means no faults @ TIME OF TESTING IN THE INVERTER

The Problem is that the 1st fault which can change the system can occur anywhere in the system.
Wiring Or any appliance may may develop a fault to earth.[frame /chassis ] not terra firma /ground
That fault on its own will not be evident ,but may show up if you connect to a RCD protected supply.

What that fault does IS CHANGE THE SYSTEM TO a non isololated system , the same as in mains supply with an earthed neutral.
The same sorts of accidents can then occur as @ home if you do not have a RCD[safety switch]

Your van RCD if fitted will be inoperable

The point that many seem to make is that a fully isolated inverter is SAFE
.YES it is until a fault as above occurs

The risk may be low but to deny that there is a risk is stupid

NOTHING is fail safe ,even your RCD.

Peter

FollowupID: 702397

Reply By: Tonyfish#58 - Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 17:55

Monday, Sep 27, 2010 at 17:55

Then what about smart chargers?

Could these be a potential hazard?

Mine comes with a bolt on the case that shows you should put it to an earth stake?

Of course this is a useless exercise as no one can measure on a camp site what would be a useful earth.

Cheers tony

AnswerID: 431596

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2010 at 22:47

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2010 at 22:47

Hi Tony
If your charger has a 3pin plug ,then it is /should be already "earthed " via the wiring
Again A separate earth stake is not required

Sometimes they generate interferance with TV etc this may be improved by running as short as possible cable to the van chassis BUT NO ground stake

Peter

FollowupID: 702537

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