Battery charging, has anyone tried it THIS way?
Submitted: Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 06:35
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Imanoone2u
I'm quite new to this but just had an idea that could maybe work.
I'd imagine one would need:
1. A vehicle alternator eg: 120A
2. A powerful 12v or 24v electric motor
3. A 12v battery with a 80w solar panel to charge the battery
4. Gearing or Belts
Have the
Battery power the 12v motor which in turn, through gearing or belts, gets the Alternator working, which in turn would charge a bank of batteries that powers the rest of your equipment OR provides power direct to your equipment.
Reasoning? a) only 1 battery to be charged with solar if not much solar is avail (overcast etc) and b) alternator could be the replacement for a generator. So virtually silent operation if one wanted to watch TV (yuk) @ night without disturbing the peace.
Am I wanting too much or am I making things over complicated?
Cheers,
Marcel
Reply By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 07:46
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 07:46
Marcel,
The basic problem with your idea is that it is very very inefficient. No matter how you view it, you are changing electrical energy to mechanical in the motor, then back to electrical in the alternator. Changing energy is never 100% efficient. Deep inside the alternator produces 3 phase ac, but this is converted internally to dc. So you started out with 12V from the battery, ran it through the mechanical stuff and finish up with 12V dc. Along the way you've probably lost much of the original energy.
Once upon a time, before solid state took over from valves, devices called genemotors were used in some battery powered gear to provide the high voltages need for valves. These things consisted (typically) of a 12V motor and (typically) a 250V generator made as a single unit. This is pretty much what you are suggesting. They worked, but were a pain and although designed specifically for the job, were very inefficient.
So, no, not a good idea........... If you must run a 240V TV, use an inverter. At least that's quiet and probably 80% efficient.
Cheers
John | J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein
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Follow Up By: Imanoone2u - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 08:08
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 08:08
Thanks
John,
Yes inefficiency/ bulkiness was something I was anticipating.
I was basically hoping to somehow run eg: microwave/TV/laptop and VERY importantly a Sunbeam Cappuchino machine :-) @ night without having to use a petrol generator and or buying all new 12v appliances. And only needing 1 portable solar panel to get the whole set-up started...
I'll keep persevering with my current 3panel, 2 battery 1200w inverter, setup.
Microwaves are overrated anyway...lol
Marcel
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706241
Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 08:26
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 08:26
I'd work on the Cappicino idea a bit and save needing that machine as
well Marcel.
Instant Cappicino's aren't all that good but , hit them with a shot of spray cream from a pressure pack can and cover with choclate powder.
John - Gennie motors and vibrators - now they were serious electro-mechanical toys.
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706243
Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:06
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:06
John,
Genemotors, rotary converters, Good God I'd almost forgotten them. Thanks for the memory jogger. Chuck in a carbon pile regulator to complete the picture!
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:08
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:08
Marcel,
However you look at it, to get energy out of your system you have to put energy in, and one of the fundamental laws of nature is that no energy transformation is 100% efficient. Quite apart from the fact that all
the steps in between are seriously inefficient, the output of an 80W solar panel simply isn't enough to run a microwave or coffee machine for very long. Heating water takes a lot of energy! A good job for gas, not electricity, when camping!
Suggest for the laptop, a suitable 12V adapter in place of the present 240V adapter should cost less than $50 and save hassles.
Robin - We are showing our age!
Cheers
John | J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein
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Follow Up By: Member - Johny boy (NSW) - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:11
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:11
I just finished reading this on C/F LOL!!
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706251
Follow Up By: Ray - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:12
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:12
I used to work in the mines years ago and most of our winding engines were DC. To convert AC to DC we used what was known as a MG set. This was an AC motor driving a DC generator. The AC motor had to be at least 1 1/2 times the power of the DC motor to make it "efficient". In those days DC drives had better control than AC drives.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:24
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 09:24
Seem to have stirred something! Anyone remembering genemotors, vibraters, rotary converters, carbon pile regulators, motor generator sets,...... is clearly of mature age!
Marcel - suggest have a look at our blog
Electricity for Camping where there is a lot of background stuff that you may find useful.
Cheers
John | J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 11:19
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 11:19
Hi All
Re :"Member -
John and Val posted:
Seem to have stirred something! Anyone remembering genemotors, vibraters, rotary converters, carbon pile regulators, motor generator sets,...... is clearly of mature age! endquote "
Then how about iron filament lamps [barreters] ,Ward Lenard control systems,
Mercury vapour rectifiers /battery chargers,copper oxide rectifiers,carbon arc lamp blue printing machines
I wonder who is the eldest poster. I am 82 going 83
Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - Rod N (QLD) - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 12:03
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 12:03
Yep remember all those old technologies. Rotary
inverters (DC to AC), Dynamotors (DC to DC), MG (Motorgenerators AC to DC). Diodes, triodes, pentodes and so on. On my course we touched on transistors but didn't spend too much time because " they are just a passing fad that will never last".
All this and I'm only 64. How things change.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 12:40
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 12:40
Peter,
At 82 going 83, I reckon you are leading the pack. I've used most of the gear you've referred to, but I'm lagging behind you by 13 years!
Cheers
John | J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein
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Follow Up By: dbish - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 13:55
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 13:55
Im only 62 & remember working on rotary
inverters, genemotors, & 32vdc to 240v ac Viabrator 50cycle
inverters & ther was only valve radios & tv. Daryl
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Follow Up By: Imanoone2u - Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 22:03
Friday, Nov 05, 2010 at 22:03
Good to see that I got some folks, 60's, 70's, 80's stirred up with nostagic memories. LOL
John, I think there's a mis-understanding, It was never my intention to get a 80w panel to run all the appliances (with 1 battery) I wanted a battery to power a motor or alike that WOULD power all the appliances.
BUT, I think I got the message... " inefficiencies in my proposal will prohibit the sufficient level of efficiency of the proposed proposal to warrant the inefficiently researched proposal to operate to a level where efficiency, would satisfy the masses sufficiently...".... I think....
Thanks all again, and Thanks for the links
Marcel
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Follow Up By: SDG - Saturday, Nov 06, 2010 at 00:33
Saturday, Nov 06, 2010 at 00:33
Then I must be a baby (41) as I don't have a clue what you lot are talking about, in relation to using all this gear for camping etc.
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