4WD Monthly track destruction

Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 17:27
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Bought the latest copy of 4WD Monthly last week and got around to watching the DVD which came with the magazine last night. The tracks that they followed were the exact ones I took about seven weeks ago, I'm not sure if they did the DVD before or after me but the tracks were in fairly bad condition.

We were a convoy of two cars, my Patrol and my mates 100 series with muddies and lockers and we made it up the tracks with little wheel spin. My issue is that the w@nker towing the camper up these hills is nothing but a vandal for trying to get a trailer up these hills, these tracks are no place for a trailer and trying to get one up there is pure stupidity.

I would hope that a magazine that carries on so much about access to tracks and peoples right to see the bush and outback are displaying the behaviour which Parks Victoria identify as the reason for track closures.

Just my opinion.

Your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency.

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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 17:52

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 17:52
They are a disgrace, They did a High country DVD a few months ago and had 2 dogs on the trip in National parks.

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Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 19:15

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 19:15
Parks Victoria do more damage by reducing track access and thereby increasing the concentration of cars on those remaining.

This has been done in a time when the number of 4wds has increased dramatically.

Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 19:30

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 19:30
G'day Robin,

I have to disagree with your comments re Parks - They have to close some tracks off because they have to deal with the lowest denominator of 4wd'ers....ie Magazine blokes and their followers.

I would love Parks to leave tracks open for all of us considerate drivers but know if this was done then there be some muppets out there that would take advantage of a wet track and stuff it for everyone. I describe the closures as a necessary evil.

As for Roothy and his mates - I watched a High Country video they produced about 18mths ago...haven't bought one of their magazines since - Totally irresponsible by them.

They infered they drove down to Blue Pool - a local iconic place in the foothills - where no vehicle access is allowed due to small children etc - and it is only a 100 metres walk to the water anyway....they in fact edited the footage and they were up the river further... BUT a few weeks later there were a group of 'boguns' that had driven down to the water after removing bollards, driving down steps and then sitting around drinking and then throwing their stubbies into the water where a number broke leaving glass where small kids wade.

In the same video I refer to they drove into Moroka Hut - again no vehicles allowed in there - the next long weekend and another group drive in there, rip up all the grass with circle work and then proceed to burn everything (bed bases/chairs etc) that was in the hut! These muppets were photographed and info passed on to police and Parks.

...and lastly Roothy and co then drove into the Wonnongatta River at Eaglevale, drove up the river, where they proceeded to attempt to drive out up the back - Required numerous attempts digging up the bank before they winched up. There was a perfectly good crossing they could have driven up but didn't....

Rant over. ;-)


Tim

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Follow Up By: rags - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:09

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:09
Hi Robin/Tim
I have had the same thought regarding track closure forcing more cars down the remaining tracks for a while,but after discussions with our local ranger NSW Blue mts and Wollemi and the issues that he faces can understand why they shut off access. As you mention Tim when some folk get to places they can't help but trash the places. The same folk can't stick to the formed track but need to ventour off the track and see if they can conquer the challenger that they find or create. My issue these days relates to the modifications that appears to be the norm nowdays with the vehicles,lifts over a reasonable 2" and the 30plus something mud tyres that go with them.I purchased my 1st car 29years ago a short wheel base hi lux 4wd and have only owned a 4wd [5 in total] since then,from the 1st day it has always been about a vehicle to get me to that special camp spot that was only accesible by 4x4.You always got there maybe sometimes with a bit of a winch or snatch but got there with minimal damage to the track. Now days you can struggle to drive the remaining open trails with a 4wd set up for touring without getting caught up because these above mention 4wds set up more like tracters , push on thru all track conditions causing damage. Maybe it is my choice of vehicle [Robin's 2nd favourite 4wd ] a Prado,but as mentioned my 5th 4wd [2nd prado] but i 'm sure it was easier 20 odd years ago , and there was sure less people out there to share it with.Must be getting old and grumpy
Russ
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:20

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:20
Tim my points may be unpopular - but which can you disagree with ?
- as they all have pretty solid evidence.

1/ They have closed many tracks
2/ there are more 4wds
3/ And the concentration of vehicles has increased as a result.

It is only logical that the Parks/Dse have a hand in being as directly responsible for an overall degradation , as well as may some specific incidents of excessive and behaviour.

4wd monthly have a website with magazine issue feedback - I wonder if they have put up any defense of this apparent damage, as it would be good to get the other side of this.






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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:51

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 20:51
Hi Russ

I think you may know that I have a place with tracks on it that I let people freely drive on but the other day I found a single beer can on it, and I felt really let down but intend to chase down the story before acting.

So I don't like bad behaviour either , but a reasonable bench mark must be set
as remember making it more crowed and less attractive to go driving in the bush would be one of many factors that has seen Australia rise to the top of the fat list.

Is it not reasonable to ask that NSW local ranger if his actions have been measured against the consequent health implications.

I suspect most are concerned only with there local responsibility and to hell with the unintended consequences.
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Follow Up By: Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:28

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:28
Robin,

I can't argue with your three points - all true - but holding DSE/Parks responsible is like holding police responsible for deaths on back roads...as they police the hwy's 'forcing' people to use the back roads.

I'd add another point to your list:

4/ More idiots in 4WDs with less respect for other's property and the environment - these types also had the "not my fault' attitude.

Makes it hard to get a happy medium.


Tim
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Follow Up By: ajd18 - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:34

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:34
I am an avid 4 wheel driver but I will always side with the Parks Victoria line in that if people can't treat the area or track responsibly then they should be closed. Access is a privelige, not a right.

If people want access as a right then with that comes responsibility.

Just my thoughts.

Your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency.

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Follow Up By: Crackles - Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:37

Wednesday, Sep 07, 2011 at 21:37
You have a short memory Robin if you think there is more damage these days compared to back in the eighties when there were 30% more tracks open. Remember the Wonnangatta valley when it was a 20 km boghole, the Zeka creek swamp, the 2km section of the King Billy track that often took an hour. With far more tracks open back then & with probably only a 1/4 of the traffic compared to today mostly running on 750/16 tyres or smaller, we (& I include myself) were responsible for 10 times the damage you see today.
And that's because as Parks & DSE closed off so many of the 'good' tracks they upgraded the majority of the one's they left. Having seen it then & now I often shake my head these days when people complain about minor rutted hills or bog holes being caused by by the big tyre brigade as compared to the good ol days it's minimal.
But back to the discussion at hand the magazine guys do need to be at least seen doing the right thing as their credability is wearing thin. Driving around Desert road closures because of time constraints and into places they shouldn't be just to get a photo does nothing for the cause.
Cheers Craig ...............
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 05:06

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 05:06
"I am an avid 4 wheel driver but I will always side with the Parks Victoria line in that if people can't treat the area or track responsibly then they should be closed. Access is a privelige, not a right."

wasnt a fair bit of the original thread about people driving on closed sections??

hows closing something going to stop idiots?

double close it?

I imagine closing tracks only has the same effect it does here in WA

it only keeps out those wanting to do the right thing

I walk down closed tracks and find camp fires, rubish and torn up tracks

so it helps how???
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Follow Up By: 153 - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:15

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:15
Yep........the ones who do the damage.....take no notice of closed areas.

Closed areas only stop the law abiding people and increases pressure and damage to these exisiting tracks/areas.

How about the parks people actually patrolling spots, especially during long weekends.

And isn't about time is was made illegal to take bottles of beer to these places! If you can't drink beer from a can....then don't drink!

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Follow Up By: Mr Pointyhead - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:43

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:43
A good example of idiots was in the upper thompson/abberfieldy over the Queensbirthy weekend. Every where we went we recent track damage and heaps of signs of hooning. Always the same tyre tracks, including the ones going around the locked gate on the Trigg Track.
In the end I saw the group of about 4 vehicles driven by idiots when they tried to run me and the friend of was travelling with off the road heading back to rawson in the evening.
There where heaps of people up there enjoying the bush and doing the right thing, and only one small group of idiots causing a who lot of trouble. Unfortunately, it seems that some 4wd mags and their writers are encouraging this sort of behaviour.

I believe that DSE and Parks are now investining in camera traps to try and catch the idiot that are wrecking it for the rest of us.
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Follow Up By: Mr Pointyhead - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:47

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 08:47
"...and lastly Roothy and co then drove into the Wonnongatta River at Eaglevale, drove up the river, where they proceeded to attempt to drive out up the back - Required numerous attempts digging up the bank before they winched up. There was a perfectly good crossing they could have driven up but didn't....
"

What was worse on that DVD was the other high profile members of the 4wd industry that where along with Roothy. They should have known better ...
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:13

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:13
Unfortunately we have to face up to the fact that Australia is now rife with a bogan element, that has no respect whatsoever for either public or private property.
I live on the edge of the High Country not far from Walhalla, & the damage these grossly illegal modified 4wds are doing is unbelievable, not only to the tracks, but also to the camp grounds.
The sooner the police get these vehicles of the roads the better.
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:13

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:13
Hullo Tim
As you know, I agree with you 100%
I have written to 4WD Action re these issues but no response - and I know of others who have done the same with similar "no response"
What is needed is for more of us who respect the bush and our ability to access it, is to collect evidence where we see abuse.
Taking down number plate details is not enough as it is not sufficient to secure a conviction. What is needed is photographic evidence with inbedded data re date, etc.
I now always carry with me a small digital camera for this purpose and won't hesitate to use it if needed. Just make sure of your own safety though as these same people could be prone to violence if they see you.
Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Bazza - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:17

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:17
"Access is a privilege, not a right." What a load of BS! How about this one ... "A driving license is a privilege, not a right". These little gems are always used when law makers or controlling bodies either don't have the money, the man-power, or interest in resolving an issue. They are usually touted just before additional taxes, fees, or road & track closures are enforced. What we all seem to forget is that we ( the tax paying public ) are already paying for these services, facilities and man-power. We should be copying NZ. They worked out years ago that proper management of their resources benefit everyone.
Bazza
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:13

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:13
Hi Guys

Tim, I probably wouldn't have used your exact back roads example, but leaving the real
hoons aside please consider this.

The police used to pursue many to their death thru dangerous car chases.

They have modified their behavior now to stop a pursuit when it gets to dangerous, as they have realized they may be technically right, but a death is a worse outcome.

In the case of our park management authorities I demand that they modify their behavior in the interests of all and recognize that some people wish a real challenge out there.

Remember - when the "drive only on tracks" legislation was introduced in the 70's that the act included provision for areas to be declared "free range".

They have not declared a single such area in 35 years.


Craig - I remember the real Zeka/Wonaggatta well, a place of mystery that took an effort to get to !
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 15:07

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 15:07
Most of the access tracks are fire trails for emergency vehicles, our recreational use purely of secondary consideration. Living where I live, I would far rather these vehicles had unfettered access, than bogan vehicles chopping up these fire access tracks.
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Follow Up By: Rob! - Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 10:16

Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 10:16
Bazza,

You appear to forget that the majority of the tax paying public would prefer for you not to be there. Therefore, any access granted to these places is a privilage.

Until the people that go there realise this, tracks will continue to be closed.

As you said, the area belongs to everyone, not just you.
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Reply By: The Landy - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:12

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:12
The magazines and some of the stories they present are doing nothing to foster and develop a better understanding of our recreational pursuit within the broader community, and with our policy makers. At times they present a red-neck, don’t care attitude; we’ll do as we please and go places with little regard for the consequences or other interest groups. We all pay for that, whether it is via community attitudes towards four-wheel drive vehicles in general, or by increasingly having access restricted in certain areas.

On National Parks and road closures; if you look at the Mission Statements of most of the State Bodies governing National Parks they have a common theme.

Parks Victoria’s mission is ‘To protect and improve Victoria’s parks and waterways for people forever’.

Very broad and possibly open to much interpretation, but the point is nothing in their charter suggests they are required to provide, or maintain, tracks and facilities for recreational four-wheel drive enthusiasts. Unfortunately those who would oppose the Parks catering in this regard, and there are many, will only need to pull out more recent copies of the ‘Four Wheel Drive Mags’ as evidence of why they shouldn’t. And whilst it is reasonable to put forward an argument that four-wheel drive access should be catered for, we are only one of many users of these areas, many of the other user groups would be rid of us tomorrow.

And on insurance, and litigation; unfortunately we live in an era where we have the legal profession, and their ambulance chasing spruiking, at the ready to demonstrate that whoever was responsible for track maintenance did not do a good job at it and therefore open to liability claims when there is an accident. Seemingly, a by-product of a society that no longer wants to take responsibility for its own actions. Track access in many areas has been denied on this basis alone, because the cost of insurance, if it can be obtained is prohibitive, and the risks of not having it far too great – the easiest solution is to close access. This is certainly true of track access through privately owned land.

A bad public image, litigation laws and compensation pay-outs, has cost us dearly in terms of money and access, unfortunately many of the four-wheel drive magazines, in the pursuit of sensationalism, are fanning a smouldering flame that will continue to singe all of us...



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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:28

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:28
Hi Landy

This reply has been carefully crafted so that no Bex are required !


"Parks Victoria's mission is 'To protect and improve Victoria's parks and waterways for people forever'. "

As per some comments I made to Tim.

The Vic park management authorities have never accepted that some people wish a real challenge out there and have failed to be inclusive and consequently failed in their mission.

In Victoria when the "drive only on tracks" legislation was introduced in the 70's that the act included provision for areas to be declared "free range".

They have not declared a single such area in 35 years.

You dare not even mention "single trail bike tracks" unless their is a Mica ambulance nearby.

I have meet directly with several of that team, and the overall feeling I come away with seems to be a feeling of "loss of control" if they were to embrass the reasonable aspirations of a large section of the community, which would in turn generate more respect for their aims.

We live in a world where our best science shows we are driving into a brick wall, and our respect for our leadership is so jaded that the public can't be convinced to apply the brakes.

Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:53

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 11:53
Hi Robin....

Noted.
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Follow Up By: Rob! - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 17:08

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 17:08
It should be noted that when Parks Victoria mention "people" in their mission statment they mean ALL people. Not just the people who go there.

I'll bet most of those people will prefer to reduce or remove 4wd from the tracks. Hence Park's victoria tries to strike balance.

Be thankful and appreciate what you have, else you might lose it.
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Reply By: Nutta - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 19:44

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 19:44
I used to ride dirtbikes alot and 4wd the same areas.

The bike tracks we rode for years with no damage, but once the fourbys shifted onto our bike tracks they were literally stuffed in a matter of months to the point where it was a struggle to ride up them..

Thats when i realised how much damage 4wds done to tracks, especially when driven poorly.

Btw our bikes were quiet 4 strokes and registered, not like those lunys on screamin 2 strokes that peed everyone off giving all dirtbikes a bad name!

Seems bogans are everywhere!
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Reply By: bigmaka - Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 22:19

Thursday, Sep 08, 2011 at 22:19
Dont know about victoria but in nsw parks are extremly poorly managed money wise,and they blame anything they can to lock a gate and reduce stupid large amounts of money been mismanaged on decisions.
i have seen countless situations were an over priced contractor has been given money to perform a sub standard job,when other avenues where available at much lower prices,and at the same time they require payment to access areas which they dont even manage/patrol and the second they may be hold accountable they find the nearest excuse to save themselves.
As far as parks patrolling/reporting track abuse and hooning ,they dont and never will because it dosent suit them to do so,also they dont have the legal right or fining system in place that holds up in court ,its a state police job and they are under staffed.
The knob heads which usually dont even have a 4wd (usually 2wd with bikes on trailer) cause 90% of the issues i see in the watagans.
The fact is it costs alot of money to mod a car up the way 4wd action makes out,and the kinda people their sponsors need to attract are not the tight bogans that I see trashin tracks every weekend.
Blaming a magazine for very poor management on a gross scale is bs.

I have seen alot of stupid stuff in the dvd's but nothing compares to the stupid stuff ive seen people do which dont even own 4wd's and at the same time watch npws ignore them .
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony Z (NSW) - Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 07:12

Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 07:12
bigmaka
I also live on the Central Coast and take the family off to the Watagans for a nice quite drive (4x4) and yes nearly had a dirt bike jump on my bonnet, him comming out of the bush and flying off a raised side of the road, I was on a main dirt road, had to brake heavily and all I got was the finger. Then there was this Hilux that over took us and when it passed by i look out my window and its side step was nearly at eye level ( I drive a Pajero) it had to be lifted 2foot ( thought it was a monster truck) and then through gravel into my windscreen.
And I personally know people that have highly modified 4x4's that make it their passion to find the hardest hill/track that can be found ANYWHERE and destroy it just so they can say I made it! When I mention that they should join a club and do it where its legal the answer is, thats NO FUN, so we can't stop them they are out there to destroy everything for the thoughtfully minded travellers!
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Reply By: eighty matey - Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 11:16

Friday, Sep 09, 2011 at 11:16
Hi,
reading the repiles and follow ups, a few questions come to mind;
- what is the definition of a red neck, or bogan,
- are they the same thing,
- are they permitted to be a part of this forum,
- where do the tracks come from, are they are a natural phenomenom(?) or were they formed by man's hand?

I have a feeling I might be classed as a red neck, or bogan and want to be sure it's ok.

I read 4wd Action every month and I enjoy many of the articles. A few of the things in videos have made me think but every time they are being led by an extremely experienced local that knows the tracks. It's not a bunch of yahoos landing in an area an going nuts.

I've met a few of the 4wd Action people and they all seem to be decent people that genuinely love their vehicles, getting out in the bush and having fun with their mates.

I have been doing the same thing for over 30 years and will continue to do for as long as I possibly can. There are places I have been going to with my mates and their families for years. We really enjoy the way every year the tracks are different. There are tracks that are basic touring and most vehicles can handle, then there are tracks that decent tyres and another vehicle are are a minimum to make sure you can get home.

My vehicle would be classed as modified but it's no monster truck. OME suspension all around, wheel carriers, some barwork, but it's my everyday work and fun car.

Anyway, the 4wd Action people aren't causing more tracks to be closed, or hooligans wrecking places, in my opinion. I reckon they are helping more families get into enjoying our bushland and seeing Australia. It should be encouraged.

Hoo roo,
eighty matey
AnswerID: 464572

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