How to Dingo and Camel proof water and food drops on CSR

Submitted: Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 07:35

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<span class="highlight">Gaynor</span>

Any ideas on how to dingo and camel proof food and water drops on the CSR without leaving garbage?

I originally had in mind something like a strong 15 litre capacity plastic bucket and tight lid - digging it into the ground or hanging from a tree. That will probably be animal proof. But burning something like about 50 buckets of this kind en-route might be problematic...maybe not?

Ideally my diet will be water, dried fruit, nuts and seeds, vacuum packed beef jerky/biltong, lentils, beans, maize, tin fish, electrolytes ... that kind of thing.

The biltong and water is likely to attract animals. Can drop the biltong perhaps, but not the water.

10 litre bladder bag for water and tins for food might be the way to go. The most compact to transport and easier to burn. Again, there is going to be some trace left as the tins won't disappear completely. I would rather not leave any garbage, but cannot carry it out. What to do? What worries me the most is that the water bladders will be vulnerable. Any ideas?

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Reply By: Member - Alastair D (NSW) - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 08:49

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 08:49

Gaynor,
I presume that this is for either a walking or bicycle trip and someone will make a vehicle run beforehand to place these drops. Assuming this then I make the following comments.
1. Vandals stealing or ruining your food drops if they are visible is a bigger problem.
2. Why not have a support vehicle which provides more safety and flexibility.
3. If you can have a vehicle run before then why not afterwards as well to pickup your waste which will be significant. I think this is a more responsible approach.
4. If you are going to do this I would bury the drops well off the track and record the GPS location. Put a stake in the ground for the final identification. The depth does not need to be large and is only to get it out of sight. Most people with bad attitudes do not stray far from the track or vehicles. A plastic bucket with secure lid would work well. Provided they are not going to be buried for too long a small amount of dry granular pool chlorine scattered on top of the bucket before it is buried will provide a deterent to animals.

I am not being deliberately negative but I find any rubbish left in the bush bad news and there is so much already. I once withdrew as a support vehicle from a long distance run due to the attitude of competitors throwing away plastic water bottles, wrappers from food and energy bars etc. We had rubbish bags but they could not wait - they carried the water and food but just had no concern otherwise.

Hope your travels go well.

AnswerID: 499708

Reply By: Member - DickyBeach - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 08:56

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 08:56

Gaynor,
I may have missed a previous post about your proposed CSR trip and perhaps you are not driving but cycling or walking (otherwise why couldn't you carry out your containers) but it was your reference to "burning" that really prompted this response. Perhaps you meant "burying".

Anyway, to the point, burying would need to be deep to avoid the dingo and hanging would need to be high to avoid the camel - if you are, indeed, walking or cycling will you have a spade with which to dig up the cache and how good are you at climbing Desert Oak trees?

The old practice of bash-burn-bury is no longer de rigueur and has been replaced by "carry in, carry out" - when we did the CSR we carried out about 40 litres of other people's rubbish, as well as our own. Don't add to the problem, help reduce it.

Have you really thought through your CSR trip?

In any event, good luck with the trip.

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Reply By: member - mazcan - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 10:32

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 10:32

hi gaynor
burying food and water would have to be deep a mtr at least
dingo's have a very power scent and all animals are attracted to fresh dirt dug up
and also have plenty of hours of free time to dig a hole they are also very inquisitive and once you have dug the hole to put in your supplies that makes very easy digging for desert dingo's and they are usually in groups so there will be more than 1 nose and set of paws
mark the spot with gps but putting a stake in the ground is not much help as camels will knock it over or the odd human seeing the freshly diggings is likely to investigate?? the site
i personely believe in taking out everything that you take in burning and burying whats left is not a very good option as dingos will dig it all up again as has been the case many times over
far too many people have left a digusting amount of rubbish in the past so dont be one of them special rubbish collecting convoys have had to travel the csr to try and clean up in the recent past
just because you are on some marathon event or personel challenge or what ever
as suggested support vehicles is the way to do it for the drop off and then the pick-up
you havent said what time of the year you are doing this but be warned if you dont do it in human body suitable times some one will be retrieving whats left of you
that part of the desert can be a very harsh hot 45-70 degrees is not uncommon during november to end of march its a very soul destroying area if you chose to go at the wrong time
it can also be very wet after cyclones have gone through
as suggested support vehicles is the way to do it
i am not having a slug at you or trying to stop what it is you are trying to achieve but just giving some sound advice from my own experiences of the csr
cheers and good luck

AnswerID: 499713

Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 10:51

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 10:51

with respect to answering your question
plastic buckets that are able to stack inside each other and have a water tight sealing lid would be my choice maybe 10 ltr size if it can store enough that is or 20 if not they are lite so wont amount to much weight for a support vehicle to carry
but then going by csr protacol it has always been recommended that you carry 20 lts of water per person for each day on the trip when travelling by vehicle as some of the wells are not suitable to drink
so you will need to seek advice before going as to what wells have drinkable water sources as this can change due to weather events like cyclone flooding etc
cheers

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Reply By: Gaynor - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 15:30

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 15:30

Relax guys. I can assure you I have a better idea than most for what I am getting into as I have already hitched the CSR twice and the Tanami once over three consecutive years.

As a hitchhiker I sometimes camped at the Wells (on my second CSR trip) for several days and I got to see the garbage people leave around up close and personal. Streams of toilet paper was the most disgusting, but there were also the tins in the fire which some forgot to take with them. I am not one of those people, hence I thought there might come a few good ideas on how to reduce my impact from conscientious others like yourselves who have also traveled the csr, but in 4x4's.

Only Alistair D and Mazcan offered any real solution and that is the same one as mine, buckets, but with a dash of chlorine, which is duly noted. Thanks! If buckets are the only option, the need for tins reduces and I can go with plastic ziplocks and vacuum packs and burn. My fires are much smaller than most groups bonfires, just enough to simmer a billy with a few sticks, so generating enough heat is the problem. Will experiment before I go.

I am not walking alone. Pam Armstrong and I have remained in contact since the Defy Adversity group fell apart earlier this year. Our focus has been on regrouping and walking it together in 2013. We will have a support vehicle with Tony driving and should all go well, yes, everything that goes in, comes out.

But. I am a careful logistics planner. What if our group takes strain and cannot continue as a group. It is three months stress after all? None of us are spring chickens. We both have the bodies of middle aged women. To raise the bar further, I broke my back last year in a paragliding accident. I cannot carry a 30-40kg pack like I did before. My body hurts just in training 80km a week without a big pack. I have to do a lot better than that 6 days a week on the Canning. So what will Plan B look like?

Plan B
I reckon we should at least make it to Kunawarritji together. If my body starts to seize up, I may have to go at a slower pace. Hence the water and food drops on the lower half of the CSR. One of my lifts in 2010 was with the Peugeot 505 driver (non 4x4 vehicle). We have remained in contact. Andy has offered to assist with drops in his very old Landcruiser that has also completed the Canning. Drops scheduled for end May. At Kunawarritji we will leave the csr and head for Broome, whereupon I will fly into Billiluna and join up with Pam and we begin our walk. All going well, we get to Wiluna three months later, together. The alternative is for me to take it a little slower, arriving four months later.

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Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 22:05

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 22:05

hi gaynor
thanks for the interesting reply there is one thing i have concerns about is the use of chlorine
i personely dont believe it will deter dingo's and imho will cause them to be attracted to your food burial sites simply because of it's very powerful odour and their very inquisitive nature and likewise for camels
they will detect it from quiet a distance so its your choice on that one
i admire the strenuous challenge you have set for yourselves
and wish you the very best and hope you are able to achieve your goals
will you be posting your progress on this site as you go along
all the best

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Follow Up By: Member - eighty matey - Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 22:14

Monday, Dec 03, 2012 at 22:14

Hi Gaynor,

I am suitably impressed with your answer.

I'm pretty sure my mouth dropped open at some point through your response, I was that fascinated.

I've always felt touring in our Landcruiser was a bit easy. The logistical excercise you have set for yourself is on a huge scale.

All the best with your adventure. I'm certain it will be extremely satisfying when you get to the end.

Hoo roo,
Steve

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Follow Up By: Gaynor - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 00:07

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 00:07

Thanks Steve :-)

The logistics are actually not bad. I find when I am doing what I am supposed to be doing, everything falls into place. Everything I need arrives. Just got an sms from Andy. He will now be taking me all the way through to Billiluna on an express trip. Reckons we can do it in 9 days. Shooooh! He is en-route to his annual Fink bike race in Alice Springs. Another middle ager who does not know how to act his age :-)

Hi Mazcan

Only options for updates are from three places on the Canning - Billiluna, Kunawarritji and Wiluna. Will do what I can. I will be carrying a SPOT, as usual. Will post a link when it goes live on my arrival in Australia in May. That way you can see the last seven days of tracking.

Afterwards I am sure to write something about the journey and maybe if I get a GoPro camera, I will have video clips to offer.

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 16:50

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 16:50

You could bury it in bags & sprinkle liberal amounts of pepper over the surrounding area. Better & cheaper than chlorine.

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Reply By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 00:11

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 00:11

Now consider that we use sniffer dogs for detection of drugs, food stuffs, and dead bodies.

These sniffer dogs can smell stuff thu vacuum packed plastic with a huge variety of very strong distractive sents.

In the matter of smell we are deaf, blind and stupid in comparison to dogs.

Ever owned a golden retreever.......and seen what these chew on just for fun...and the size of the holes they dig, just because they feel like it.

Now consider a hungy dingo..its probaly smelling your food stash over a Km away.....it probaly digs a hole a meter deep just to get a drink and a plastic bucket is just no challenge at all.

If you have to leave drops at all, I'd be putting my faith in steel.......its just going to be safer to carry ya stuff on a support vehicle that is keeping pace or following up

cheers

AnswerID: 499743

Reply By: Member - Terra'Mer - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 14:04

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 14:04

I would like to read more about what you are doing and why. Do you have a website or an everyday hero account?
Have you looked at the Bushwalk Australia forum, they often have threads specifically about food drops and rubbish retrieval.
They may also be interested in what you're doing
:)

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Follow Up By: Gaynor - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 20:16

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 20:16

Hi Terra 'Mer

I used to be a pretty serious blogger up until a year and a half ago. The paragliding website was flygirl.co.za. When a friend broke his neck on 1st April 2011 and became paralised, only able to blink his eyes, I did not want to write anymore about my sport of 12 years and took it offline.

My own accident took place a year later almost to the day, 31 March 2012. This year is a leap year. I was spared being an Aprils Fools joke by the gift of that one extra day.

I too could have been paralised. My spinal damage was very serious. A burst L2 and a compressed and chipped L5. I have 6 lumbar vertebra. The typical person has only 5 so it is the equivalent of your L4.

An incredible sequence of events occurred which saved my spinal cord from damage. I knew I was hurt badly and did not move. A farmers two autistic adult children saw me crash near their farm and alerted their father, insisting he come and see. I was flying with a paramedic friend from Manilla who was in radio contact with another paramedic friend who happened to be in Barraba at the time, only a few kilometres away. The Wespac helicopter happened to be in my area and airlifted me to John Hunter Hospital in Newcastle where I was put in the care of an orthopedic surgeon with quite revolutionary ideas about practicing non-surgical procedures where possible.

It is thanks to Dr Robert Kuru that I was not operated on and not put in a brace. No brace meant that my muscles stayed strong and did not atrophy as they worked overtime to balance my spine when I was upright. A South African surgeon following my case later did a talk on it at an international congress using me as one of three case studies. All paragliding accidents. He said everyone studying the images all agreed they would have done surgery, some from the front and back of my spine and definitely all would have made me wear a brace. The fact that I had nothing done at all and have recovered so quickly is, in their eyes, remarkable.

During my recovery I walked a lot. I have not stopped walking. I found walking to be one of the most beneficial of all exercises, strengthening muscles, balancing the spine and stimulating a chemical reaction in the brain that promotes a feeling of well being. I am pretty close to 100% free of any side effects from the injury eight months later. My only weakness is weight bearing over 11kgs for an extended period of time.

On this walk I will be working on overcoming that last physical weakness and towards the end of it, walking with 15kg every day.

I am incredibly grateful to have been spared paralysis and the trauma of surgery. To that end I have put paragliding on hold for now and I am celebrating, everyday, the simple act of being able to walk.

With regards to writing: I am deliberating as to whether I should build another website and blog about this walk and all that has lead up to it and the outcome, but blogging is time consuming. I am an all or nothing kind of girl. Whatever I put my mind to do, I immerse myself in it fully. I would also like to find a way to say thank you to the people and organisations who helped me so much - John Hunter Hospital, Wespac, the paramedics .... but I am not sure how to. I would like to give back. Something I have learned from Australian people.

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Follow Up By: Gaynor - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 21:13

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2012 at 21:13

Thanks for the heads up on bushwalk.com. Lots of information I am wading through right now.

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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 02:42

Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 02:42

WOW! What a year you've had. You were very fortunate to find Dr Kuru and how well his methods worked for you. I am glad that you are able to embark on this amazing expedition and have 100% faith you will be fully ready for the physical and emotional stresses you will experience.

Did you know there is a Westpac Helicopter Rescue Service link for donations through Everyday Hero where you can set up your walk as a fundraiser event? I am using this for Lifeline through The Happy Walk.

Have you had a chance to try out the Aarn packs yet? They are great for natural balance as the front pockets help you walk upright as opposed to the forward lean that you get from the usual packs.

I'mabout to try out the Pacer Poles. These are also designed to help walk straighter. I am currently using my old Black Diamond poles which work well so i look forward to trying something that claims to be better. I'll write about them in a blog once they arrive and I take them for a couple of long loaded walks with the normal pack and the Aarn. Apparently Aarn have designed a tent that uses the Pacer Poles as tent poles. Makes sense, I use my poles with my tarp if I can't find any good trees to tie to.

(Sorry ExplorOz for mentioning the other forum but they have some great bushwalking specific threads)

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Follow Up By: Member - Terra'Mer - Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 02:51

Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 02:51

Do you have an idea of how much water you think you will be using each day in these conditions and physical activity for drinking, rehydrating food, cleaning, etc?
The most I have used in a day just for drinking was about 10ltrs. I had to drink almost 3ltrs of it with electrolytes. It was over 40'C with a road radiant heat of almost 60'C and i walked over 30kms pulling a 55kg trekking cart. Thankfully I didn't need to use water for washing or food because I made to the next town :)

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Follow Up By: Gaynor - Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 20:06

Friday, Dec 07, 2012 at 20:06

Terra'Mer ... you are a fountain of knowledge and good advice. Thanks!

If I can use this walk to raise funds for my favourite worthwhile organisations (I dislike the word charity), it makes sense for me to build a blog. Will build one in January. Reading forum rules briefly, I don't think I am allowed to post a link to the blog, but once it is up I let you know and you can google it if still interested.

Both Pam and I are self funded. It is simpler to remain unsponsored. That way the journey remains ours alone. And all funds raised go where they are intended by the Giver.

Pam is using a wheelie type cart. I will carry a backpack. Have not heard of Aarn. Certainly not available here in South Africa. I like the idea of not leaning forward. A tendency I have and it puts pressure on my feet and toe joints. Never walked with sticks before. Will see if I can borrow a pair and see what a difference it makes. Look forward to hearing your review.

You are nuts! Thought I should just mention that. Nice to hear from a kindred spirit. Walking in 40C? ....no. My thoughts are that we will start the day in darkness before dawn and walk about 4 hours in the cool. That way, judging by my present standards of training, I will consume about 2 litres of water. In heat of 30C that rockets up to 4 litres and I am still thirsty. I expect we will rest in the heat of the day drinking/cooking about 2-3 litres and then start again in the late afternoon into the evening for another few hours and another 2-3 litres. I am working on a guess of 8-9litres of water a day and 1 litre for cleaning, if available. We shall see how it goes. Of course this is winter when we will be walking so some days should be a pleasant 25c, the early mornings very cold in the south, some evenings too, so we can walk longer....and stay warm.

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Follow Up By: Gaynor - Thursday, Dec 13, 2012 at 18:46

Thursday, Dec 13, 2012 at 18:46

Hey Terra

Kindred Spirits? We have more in common than I thought. Just had a look at your website. Walking certainly keeps me alive. Paragliding used to be my anti-dote to depression. With that on hold for now, I replaced it with walking. Not as much fun, but it serves a similar function, giving me focus, a way to tap into the present and healing time with nature.

I don't have regular access to internet, but in January I hope to change that. Perhaps we can link up? My email is flygirl@flygirl.co.za

Wishing you a very happy festive season and lots of special people along your way.

Gaynor

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Reply By: Gaynor - Friday, Dec 28, 2012 at 20:43

Friday, Dec 28, 2012 at 20:43

It looks like I am going to go bare minimum and not worry about securing the supplies too much. 50-100 drops is a lot to cater for. We simple don't have the space or weight carrying capacity to go beyond the bare minimum for the majority of drops. Besides, I was baulking at the thought of having to burn so many 15 litre plastic buckets.

That leaves bladders. MSR or Sea-To-Summit water bags are tough but too expensive when you are looking at buying 50 to 100. I am investigating using bag-in-box to hold my water supplies which will be filled mostly from the 10 to 15 working wells. Bag-in-box are the inners in a juice, wine or water box. Not strong enough to carry for 3-4 months, but good enough, I reckon, to hold water for me in the ground. The occasional drop may be destroyed by animals but there are very few dingoes on the CSR, not like the Simpson. Camels are another story. I will just have to be careful and conservative with water until I have reached each drop, then rehydrate once I know it is safe. If one is destroyed, I will have enough water to walk in the cool of the night to the next drop.

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