Proposed Simpson Desert Parks Closure for summers

Andrew & Hairy
I'm with you both.

These restrictions, I fear, are not just to protect the public from it's self, but more importantly, to protect the various authorities for libel by the families, should it all go pear shaped & someone gets hurt or dies.

(SA parks lawyer's reply to the coroner "Your honour, we told them not to travel the desert in summer, so it's not our fault they did")
Cheers Colin.

Hi John
It is already law in South Australia that people in canoes and kayaks must wear a Personal Floatation Devise (PFD) at all times when on the water. If caught, I think from memory it is about $160 fine per person.

Cheers

Stephen

Fully agree.

AND they tow 3 ton trailers :-))

Nup. It is papering over the real problems.

People are going into the desert under-prepared or unprepared.

That is the real problem whenever it is open.

They need to start there, and if they can tackle that problem in July, they will tackle that problem 365 days a year.

If someone was at risk out there in December, more than likely they could strike similar circumstances between Mar 15 and Nov 30 and be at risk in those same circumstances.

>If someone was at risk out there in December, more than likely they could strike similar circumstances between Mar 15 and Nov 30 and be at risk in those same circumstances<

Andrew

You are clouding the issue. We are only talking about the summer months. What is your agenda?

There isn't a problem with under-prepared travellers out there in the desert from April to November. In those months by popular demand there is a significant amount of traffic where risk could be deemed as less.

Ruth says it all in her comment. I reiterate what I say and also what Ruth says

In a previous post some weeks ago I suggeted that Parks management needed to be upgraded to a better level of service and information. The problem is that that the desert encompasses three States and it may impossible to set up a regulatory body to cover all aspects of management

Agenda - just ensure it is discussed openly principally.

Also to ensure that the opportunity to discuss the real issues (like Park management resources you mention and ineffective ways of making sure people don't go out there unprepared are addressed - I don't agree that it it not a problem. It is just that no one has died yet).

And closing things is a great bureaucratic past-time as you know... next it will be the whole park or some other park that you might just want to venture into. Already the management plans for one large park in SA put most of it off-limits 365 days a year because of safety concerns.

I was unaware of a previous (presumably voluntary) registration system for SD. I had in mind a mandatory and policed system run by Police or Parks.

That's lateral thinking guys, now I want a 25% refund on that pass I bought from you 3 months ago David. He He He.
Thanks Dave & Michelle.

perhaps VKS737 could tell us how many emergencies they have been involved in between Dec and March... and how many between April and November...

Is that something you could arrange Footy?

I'm actually not privvy to that sort of info, assuming that it could be made public. Signmn might be a better prospect.
Perhaps SA National Parks might have it in an annual report somewhere ? I'd guess that 737 wouldn't be involved in every serious case, but suspect that Nat Parks or the police would be.

If you don't want to do it... don't do it.

I've lived in deserts where no one was going to come and get you - it's a risk, let people make their own choices - just as you do....

Mike Harding

Well said Ruth, people need to remember that it involves more than just them selfs when doing these trips, anytime of the year.

And Mike is that your standard response? can't think of anything better.

Regards

Richard

Ruth (and Andrew),

I wonder how this may effect the "locals" who do know what to expect and are prepared for travel in this region at this time of year?

Ruth you may answer this? Do many locals like getting out into the Simmo during the summer or do they just hibernate in the a/c at home or cool down at the bar of the b/v hotel?

I can't see that any closure over the said months would effect me so I wouldn't be too worried one way or another but I can't see why one "learned" person should be able to dictate when or where another "learned" person can travel just because of the weather.

Cheers, Trevor.

Thanks Ruth, I do respect your view and please don't take this as criticism.

I've never had to use them but clearly the work of all these people is valued at any time of year, and managing risk in conducting their work is important too - but why, if the risks can be managed in July, can't they be managed in December?

Are they that different?

Emergencies in the desert have all the issues you mentioned 365 days a year, in the parks and in many places out of the parks.

People going unprepared into the desert is an issue any time of year. It happens. It happens a lot. In my view a lot more could be done. EPIRBS and lifevests are required in boats. EPIRBS and no single vehicle crossings could be mandated, and policed quite easily with a simple registration system and check at Birdsville or Mt. Dare (say).

To me that would make a real difference to risk versus this idea that it is safe one day and not the next which is promoted by the closure idea.

I am not sure why I am surprised by some of the responses to my post - I've been on here almost since the beginning of the Forum - but somewhat surprised I am tonight.
Andrew, July in the Simpson Desert is very busy, weather is very pleasant if a little cold - plenty of travellers in each direction and lots of communication between vehicles. Very different in January, not much chance of anyone finding you or coming across you by accident.
Trevor, if the weather in summer is nice and not howling northerly blowing sand then locals do go for picnics to Eyre Creek, some go painting, some do photography but no, mostly locals don't go into the SD after the beginning of October - its too hot and usually too windy. Locals are busy going to work, preparing for Christmas with their families, re-connecting with each other due to the busy time of the tourist season which impacts on everyone here whether directly involved or not - as I mentioned earlier - from the third week of December to the end of January a lot of people take annual leave and head to the bigger centres to do the Doctor, Dentist Family and Christmas things, or simply to go to a supermarket and re-stock.
As for the register - some of you may recall that this has been tried and found to be wanting - mostly because people would sign in at one end and not bother to sign out again, why should the people at Mt Dare have the responsibility - anymore than the people at William Creek being responsible for the sad needless drama a few years ago at Lake Eyre.
I am sorry that people don't like the idea of closures - I don't either - but let me ask you this. Would you go out into the SD in December on Christmas Eve to take photographs? Would you go out to rescue someone in the middle of January when the storms are about and you may not know that there has been a couple of inches of rain in the middle of the desert?
You can have as many 'informed moral philosophical arguments' as you wish - but you are sitting somewhere safe and warm/cool - not here having to put your life on the line in 50 degree heat.
This argument isn't about who can tell you what you can and can't do - it's about real people and real danger - try and take a less selfish look at the issue. Every time the ambulance leaves town it takes the only Sister from the Clinic with it - leaving the townspeople at risk - we don't have 24 hour medical clinics in each suburb here.

Well said Ruth.
Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves just to protect others.

"Mike Harding posted:
If you don't want to do it... don't do it.

I've lived in deserts where no one was going to come and get you - it's a risk, let people make their own choices - just as you do....

Mike Harding"

When was the last time you saw a news article that read...

"Bodies found in desert...... it's OK though, they knew what they were doing and didn't want to be rescued"

Brian

Squizzy

That argument does not wash. In the wet you are restricted to travel certain areas due to inundation and many roads are closed.

The Simpson is at present open slather at any time of year.

Longest closure last wet was nine days and all up thirty three days. leaves a lot of the wet it is still open.

Open where?

Each year is different. Depends on how much rain has fallen. But that is not the point. The point is: should access to a very hostile environment be closed off for a period of time in the summer months when temperatures are extreme.

Willem,

I reckon you could have the same arguement for the Stuart hwy into Darwin "should access to a very hostile environment be closed off for a period of time in the summer months when temperatures are extreme" LOL!!

My point is, if a check point can't be enforced during the cooler months (as Ruth indicated) then what chance do they have in enforcing total closure and what will be next....all outback dirt roads over the summer period. After all they all can be pretty hostile environments in summer. Imagine doing the Canning in summer? No thanks, but some do and feel the need to. Then would the beauracrats move onto roads covered in snow during the winter months....arrrr bugger it, just close them too "for the protection of the people".

Sorry Willem, I agree with you and Ruth on most things but closing off another part of this country "to protect myself" is one we will have to disagree on I think. I bet if the need arose, and you had to be somewhere where you were not allowed to be you would just go (if you felt it safe) regardless of the "rules" and I am sure that is how most of the locals surrounding the SD would be thinking too. I seem to recall a fur covered friend accompanying you somewhere it should not have been, do I not?

Similar applies to road closed signs in the tropics with flooding, seen it and done it where calculated judgement allows one to drive through the flood water safely. Does this mean we should close the Cape when the water over the Wenlock is 1M deep??? (I know the bridge alleviates this but you get my point) After all we all don't drive the same vehicle capable of the same things. I towed a van through more than 2km of the stuff one wet season....but it was an educated and calculated decision that was safely executed. You have no insurance when you do this and that sits fine with me, similar to travelling the SD in summer, if there was no insurance for this kind of travel at this time of year that would be fine by me but not total closure.

Best regards,
Trevor.

Dear Trevor

That speech of yours is a long diatribe of useless analogies.

Stick to the point of the post. The closure of access to the Simpson Desert in the summer months.

I have said it, Ruth has said it, Footloose has said it, Kim has said it ans Brian has said it. I would not like to calculate our combined ages and experience, but suffice to say, I do think we know what we are talking about.

The Simpson Desert is a dangerous place in the summer months. In fact the whole of Central Australia can be classed into that category. Early European explorers found this out, some with tragic consequences. Even aborigines have perished when waterholes have dried up due to adverse summer weather conditions

It would seem that not many travellers are prepared to learn from other peoples mistakes.

Yours sincerely

Hi Willem,

Please don't mistake my objection to the closure of the Simpson, through summer, as support to those wishing to travel there in Summer, far from it. The whole reason why any such closure to the SD in summer would not effect me personally (as I said to Ruth).

Any trip to such a place as the Simpson (winter or summer) needs to be thoroughly researched and planned for. For me personally I would listen and take on board opinions of experienced travellers like yourself and locals alike.

I do however object to the total closure of the place. This would be (IMO) the start of things to come for other iconic destinations where the controlling authority wishes to remove any liability threats perceived (either founded or unfounded). Places similar to those in my analogies in my previous response. This forms part of the basis for my initial responses.

Your years of outback and remote area travel would more than likely outweigh my total years on the planet and for this reason alone I would most certainly recomend people take on board your advice on travel times. Likewise, Ruth's local knowledge puts her in the same position to you in my opinion and you both will always be held in high regards when looking for travel advice.

Trusting this clears things up a little.

Best regards,
Trevor.

Gday Kim,
You probably wouldnt get me going out there just for fun either.
The simpson is a difficult one I reckon.......
I would like to see them deter people from doing it but not ban them.
Some people are used to stinking hot, dry conditions and some arent. Its a bit like sending a group of Territorians camping in the Snow for a couple of weeks, could be dangerous but I doubt they would close the ski slopes over winter because of it?I think it should all comes down to choice and accepting responsibility for your own actions. (maybe a bit more education for those who want to go in?)
I reackon I would have a better chance of survival in the Simpson in mid summer than Sydney in peak hour!

LOL
Cheers

I reackon I would have a better chance of survival in the Simpson in mid summer


Not without a trailer load of beer, you won't.....lol


Cheers

Too true.....
ROFLMAO

Cheers

Gidday Hairy

Yer pigs will fly though the heat of theory

LOL

Regards

KIm

The other problem is that 99.9% of the population think they are more capable than they actually are.......

Then let them step in deep 5h1t and pay in full for recovery from their own pocket! No necessity to risk rescues life – helicopter will do the trick flawlessly. So they can learn hard way if they dislike to do it in easy way.

Serg

Serg

If you are going to test yourself you don't need the EPRIB, otherwise you intent to have someone reuse you, and thats what the closures are all about...

Regards

Richard Kovac

Richard,

I somewhat missed your point.

Cheers
Serg

Serg.

If you hit the button someone will and I say WILL come and find you dead or alive.

Richard

Here here Robin.

Surely having to take a life jacket is a bit over the top!!!

Not if you become bogged, its raining and you fall asleep in your car with the sun roof open.

Sorry, silly me, wasn't thinking.

Hairy,
You forget minimum 2 fire extinguishers per vehicle and mandatory paramedic per convoy with comprehensive medical kit.

Serg.

Well, sort of true. But tell me how anyone can “protect” from not chopping his finger when splitting wood, or not falling from stairs and crack his skull or not putting finger into mains or…. I think it is obvious and it is call common sense. Sadly common sense not that common nowadays.

Cheers
Serg.

I'm not rushing to go there during that period either but if I had some reason to, and I was prepared I would with at least one other vehicle similarly prepared.

Closure for six weeks when no one is about in Birdsville over Christmas would make some sense to me.

Hi Andrew

I guess the issue is making sure that the risks are covered. Some will be able to do this, most won't be able to.

No doubt as part of our business you will be over some of the issues involved, I guess it is the average traveller that you have to set policy for.

I can't remember where I read it, be I recall a story about a Japanese tourist who was planing to set off across the Simpson on a motor bike, ill prepared, but he was just going to 'stop at a roadhouse' along the way for fuel and refreshments......

I don't recall that story, but I do recall a Japanese motor cyclist going over the handlebars and breaking his neck out there... getting messages through to them is particularly hard. I doubt that the "Road closed" sign would get through to them either though.

I guess the next one will be found once the desert opens rather dessicated.

The claim is that only 35 vehicles crossed during the whole period 07/08... in 5-6,000 (They are not sure exactly).

Hairy.....in theory you are right, in practice it never works that way. The way I read these types of situations is that they are far less concerned about protecting those that want to do it, versus protecting those that will be called upon to effect a rescue.....