New Standards for Electrical Installations.
Submitted: Monday, Dec 04, 2023 at 20:20
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Allan B (Sunshine Coast)
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Several weeks ago in
Thread 146543 there was some discussion about the new Australian Standard AS/NZS 3001 - Part 2, titled Electrical Installations — Connectable electrical installations and supply arrangements. This came into effect on the 18th November.
I have now had the opportunity to peruse this Standard and would make some expressions about it and the effects it may have on our RV community.
The Standard is extensive and specific so I will not embark on a comprehensive review but some points are……..
1) For starters let's look at its application. The Standard applies to "Connectible Electrical Installations" which are defined in the Standard as being for (those vehicles) that are intended for connection to external low voltage a.c. by either a detachable supply lead or one directly connected to the vehicle. It refers to that term "connectable" repeatedly". So if your vehicle… car, trailer, caravan or motorhome does not have the facility to plug in to a power source e.g caravan park power outlet, then I believe it is not subject to this Standard even if it has low voltage d.c.
services or a 230vac inverter installed. Provided there is no 'connectibility' to an external "low voltage ac power source". Of course, most camper trailer/van or motorhome do have such facility.
2) Installers of electrics will need to be
well informed and abide by the Standard where it is being referred to by State or Federal legislation.
3) In particular it lays down requirements for both the 230vac wiring and also some aspects of the dc installation.
4) I was confused by some expressions in Section 5 where it makes specifications for "Lead Acid battery requirements" and separately for "Lithium ion battery requirements". no mention is made of Lithium Iron phosphate batteries. Because it is expressed as "Lithium ion" and not simply "Lithium" I was left to wonder if LiFePO4 are excused from this Section. I have written to Standards Australia to seek clarification on this point.
5) In the earlier thread I referred to above there were some expressions regarding the 'legal' aspects when changing to a revised battery type. In general with electrical installations covered by the Australian Standards, upgrading the whole installation is only required when there is a 'substantial' change being made to the installation, however it is always moot as to what 'substantial' may mean. I would not believe that simply replacing the battery with a different type would require any upgrading with respect to the Standard. If however the location and housing arrangement of their battery was being changed then I expect that it would be viewed as necessary to adopt the requirements of this Standard.
So apart from some things such as battery housing and ventilation the Standard id mainly defining requirements which are already recognised as "Good Practice".
Part 1 of this Standard applies to the requirements for the power supply source such as van parks.
I'll post more when I hear back from Australian Standards about the Lithium confusion.
Reply By: kgarn - Monday, Dec 04, 2023 at 21:57
Monday, Dec 04, 2023 at 21:57
I believe that lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are a type of lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery. The term "lithium-ion" refers to a family of rechargeable battery chemistries that use lithium ions as the charge carriers. LiFePO4 is one specific chemistry within the broader category of lithium-ion batteries.
Ken
AnswerID:
644846
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Dec 04, 2023 at 23:29
Monday, Dec 04, 2023 at 23:29
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A point I made in my letter to Australian Standards was that lithium-ion and LiFePO4 are generally viewed as discrete products and the LiFePO4 type are currently the prominent choice for installation in leisure vehicles. Furthermore, if the rules were to apply to both types then both should be referenced or a generic "lithium" term should be used. Being expressively inclusive of one type and exclusive of another can convey that the second is intended to be excluded.
I have in the past served on committees to review draft standards and a major guideline was to look for ambiguities.
FollowupID:
925009
Reply By: StormCamper - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 02:43
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 02:43
I cant say I really understand any of this, it seems to me its written in such a pretentious way. I mean I understand how to calculate the losses in a solar cell with the detailed balance technique, I undertsand exactly what pump and filter to use with 60meters of hose and wanting to get 13LPM. But this is just not making sense to me. Must be written by those guys how require a
orange color lead instead of a red one.
In my mind when I think standards I think vibration dampening, making sure stuff doesn't come loose, making sure cells dont get dangerously warm from internal defects, the size of cells as larger ones might be a
hazard on the rough bumps. Making sure my lithium charger can actually run at it's rated high output in hot conditions.
Pretty much all none LiFePO4 (usually NMC) is is a commercial package and so Id be wondering what the deal is with these in many touring setups? Some portable power setups use NMC as it has alot higher energy density and this chemistry is alot more dangerous.
Further, we are now entering an age where NMC variants are now able to last as long as the best LiFePO4 and so this will surely mean a huge increase in their usage.
AnswerID:
644848
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:06
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:06
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Hi StormCamper.
What do you not understand? The Standard or my expressions above? I certainly do not aim to be "pretentious". I strive to communicate clearly and simply but sometimes the subject needs to be in a form that cannot be misunderstood.
If you find any point I make is not clear, just ask me…. I would be happy to clarify it without being derisive.
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Member - McLaren3030 - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 06:51
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 06:51
Hi Allan,
Thank you for you brief explanation of the “changes” to the standard. As I am not an Electrician or an Electrical Engineer, I am not privy to the complete standard without paying a fee, so I have not read the entire standard, only sections that have been posted by others on various forums.
From my basic understanding of what I have read, you have confirmed what I believed the intent of the standard is meant to achieve. The only confusion from my standpoint is the wording “Lithium Ion” when referring to battery chemistry. So many people confuse Lithium Ion with Lithium Iron Phosphate. (It “smacks” of the same confusion created when the authorities updated the standards with regard to portable LPG BBQ’s and bayonet connections on caravans). There have been a number of fires recently where Lithium Ion batteries have been the cause of the fire. Hopefully your query to the relevant authority will clear this up.
Macca.
AnswerID:
644850
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:51
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:51
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Hi Macca.
Yes, access to Australian Standards can become expensive. This AS/NZS 3001.2 cost me almost $200.
But I am happy to share it with others. Although I am not permitted to copy-and-paste sections of it, I can re-express it and quote short extracts.
Already I have seen persons posting their
views of the new 'Rules' where their interpretation is not accurate and could lead viewers into error. Be careful who you listen to as some gain commercial benefit of presenting as technical experts when they are more actually 'influencers'.
Also appreciate that the Australian Standards, and the legislation that incorporates them, is directed to persons and organisations with qualifications and expertise in the subject matter. They are not written for the benefit of laymen or amateurs as 'User Guides' and accordingly invariably require some broader understanding of the topic in order to apply the specific terms of the rule.
I agree with you about Lithium identity confusion. The distinction between "AGM" and "Lithium" is very clear to a layman but the definition of various forms of lithium cells is more confusing. Particularly when it comes to safety, clarity of expression can be very important. But I am not confidant that officers of Australian Standards organisation will accept my point about their confusion of definitions. They do tend to sit
well above mortal beings! lol
FollowupID:
925018
Reply By: RMD - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:33
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 08:33
I love how they call 240vac, LOW VOLTAGE, they are referring to caravans in the regulations and caravans use 240vAC as a power source frequently connected. A caravan is hardly likely, I haven't seen one yet, with a 40,000vac power input which is a high voltage.
Anyone receiving a shock from 240vac wouldn't term it LOW VOLTAGE.
In my alternator it rectifies around 14vac to charge a dc battery. I see that as low voltage.
My house solar has an open circuit of 385v DC and it has a "high voltage dc" sticker to tell it is so. It can kill along with 240vac, so called low voltage. Who rates low and high.
Perhaps the voltage rating should be called DANGEROUS VOLTAGE, as this low voltage 240vac I am not going to touch. To me, I have a HIGH VOLTAGE 240vac lead to my caravan.
AnswerID:
644853
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 09:41
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 09:41
Hi RMD,
I appreciate your confusion. The terms came about historically and have been re-defied from time-to-time.
And the 'official' definitions are not always applied accurately. Although the placard "High Voltage Inside" may
well be good advice even though it is technically defined as 'Low Voltage' by Australian Standards.
And many appliances do use the term "Dangerous Voltages Inside" as you recommend.
Just for the record, here are the current (no pun) 'official' definitions in Australia:
Extra Low Voltage (ELV): Less than 50vac or 120vdc.
Low Voltage (LV): Above ELV but not more than 1000vac or 1500vdc.
High Voltage (HV): Above LV.
In all cases of dc voltage it applies to 'ripple free' otherwise it is classed the same as ac voltages.
Earlier definitions of "Medium Voltage"and "Extra High Voltage" have been discarded.
Expressions using these terms by overseas equipment manufacturers are often not in accord with the Australian Standard of course.
And, as being someone who has received many hostile encounters with 240 volts, I certainly agree with you that I would not have termed it LOW voltage.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 11:58
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 11:58
Thanks Allan.
I suspected something like that was at play here. Yes it is LOW VOLTAGE but it WILL KILL YOU, we won't mention that bit will we.
I too have had some delightful experiences with my local power transformer.
Years back, I stopped a colleague from loosening the main terminal on an electric vehicle 144vdc, more when charged, pack, with a shifter while kneeling on the negative floor while wearing shorts. He went white when he realized what he was about to do and seemed quite thankful afterwards.
If I want to get rid of someone, I will simply tell them it is LOW VOLTAGE and it is ok.
The people who make the classification apparently haven't ever touched a decent voltage to know, insulated by plastic biro I presume.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 10:00
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 10:00
Even elv can be dangerous, 48 vdc is quite capable of fatal shocks.
Working with elv you do become complacent with its very low, almost non existant potential for harm at the bottom half of it but I remember 3 very painful slaps in the face as if they happened yesterday.
Two were 24vdc and one 12vdc.
FollowupID:
925039
Reply By: Member - Cuppa - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 09:38
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 09:38
As a 'non electrician' I read something about the new rules a while back. shortly I believe, before they were brought into force. The discussion involved a manufacturer talking about the changes they were making to the design of their product to comply.
I thought that essentially the legislation was essentially to deal with 'Lithium' batteries which have become commonplace in RV's & which enable higher current appliances to be used compared to older Lead acid batteries.
I didn't think it had anything to do with plugging in external sources of 'low voltage AC', but rather the increased use of
inverters together with batteries capable of providing higher sustainable current.
IIRC the changes were mostly focussed upon storage of 'Lithium' batteries in the RV space weren't they?
AnswerID:
644854
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 10:00
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 10:00
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No Cuppa, the Standard comprehensively deals with electrics in all forms of "connectable" installations and embraces vehicles such as RV's and caravans. As such it addresses battery storage, both lead-acid and lithium but certainly extends
well beyond that.
Do not incorrectly view the used term of "Low Voltage". Such term embraces the range from 50vac to 1000vac and 120vdc to 1500vdc. Yes, it is surprising and possibly confusing. When someone says "Don't worry, it's only low voltage" we are prone to think 12vdc.
Your expectations of the Standard's application was probably formed from expressions of someone who had a view of some specific part of the Standard. Beware the person waving a bottle of Snake Oil. lol
Maybe when I have time I will post a summary of the Standard here rather than just addressing bits and pieces.
FollowupID:
925020
Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 11:58
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 11:58
I am currently building a new RV from the ground up. It will have lots of solar, a large LiFePO4 battery and a couple of
inverters.
The "connectable" bit that applies to AS3001 leaves some questions, for me.
The vehicle will not need to be "connectable" (our current OKA is not "connectable") and as such could avoid compliance with AS3001 entirely, but that does leave the question as to what standard(s) I will then need to comply with and so far, I feel that complying with AS3001 may
well be the easiest way through the maze, so adding a token connection may still happen.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925021
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 14:04
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 14:04
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Hi Peter,
AS 3001.2 positively applies to connectable vehicles and relocatable units by both title and definition (1.4.18) which "have the provision for or is intended for connection to a low voltage supply from an external source." so if your vehicle does not fall within that definition then it does not need to conform to AS 3001.2 at all. If however the vehicle contains electrical components, including "Extra Low Voltage" rated then it does need to comply with AS 3000 "Electrical Installations and Wiring Rules". Of significance is the use of an inverter or portable alternator producing nominal 230vac.
When I 'upfitted' my Sprinter to a motorhome I deliberated about the inclusion of 230vac power outlets and a means of 'connectability' to the mains. I had no need of such as it is electrically self supporting but decided to include a double power outlet and a 40A battery charger to satisfy any potential future buyer. As it happened that has been very useful for maintaining the batteries when the vehicle is parked up for extended periods. But in current consideration, I would not have gone that path in view of the added cost and complexity. Adding a "token connection" may be opening Pandora's box!! You can always sling an extension cord through the doorway with impunity.
If you are considering going the 'connectable' path I would recommend that you first view a copy of AS/NZS 3001.2 (3001.1. applies to the fixed supplying installations of e.g. a caravan park). You may find that the constraints add complexity and cost to the installation that you do not wish.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 14:20
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 14:20
My reading (so far) suggests that complying with AS3000 plus the household solar regs is more difficult than AS3001.
Solar has become more complex under AS3001, but still simpler than household stuff.
A lot of the complexity of AS3001 with the inclusion of
inverters is the requirement to ensure that power points can only have one source at any time. If they can not ever be connected to the "connectable supply" , that particular issue is a non event.
I have not purchased AS3001 yet, but will need to.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925028
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 15:43
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 15:43
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Yes Peter, AS3001 does deal with systems having manual or automatic transfer of the ac sub circuits from external mains to an inverter output. But that is reasonably simple switching. It also recognises arrangements where the inverter outlets are separate from the mains outlets and thus avoid transfer arrangements. I would not describe that section of the Standard as being "A lot of the complexity of AS3001". There is plenty more to contend with than that I can assure you.
As an example: "5.5.2.2.3 Overcurrent Protection. PV arrays shall be provided with overcurrent protection as follows: (a) Protection against circulating currents within the array…… having 3 or more strings (panels in series) shall be provided with overcurrent protection in each string." And it goes on at some length. So my four 120W panels which are connected in parallel and have a rated open circuit voltage of 22.8v and a short circuit current rating of 7.23A each are required to have a fuse on each panel. Really?? My connecting cables are capable of carrying much more than 7A (in order to minimise volt drop) and the panels are mounted on the roof far from flammable components. Yet I would need to mount fuses "located as close as practicable to
the junction point". And not just your ordinary old 15A auto fuse either, there are specs. Maybe I am missing a point and my van is a ticking time-bomb. Peter, think again about making it connectible.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 16:14
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 16:14
I will only have 2 @ 215W panels in series, so no problem there. The other 4 panels (430W, 41V each) will each have their own controller (5 controllers, 2,075W of PV total).
To do that according to household solar is much more complicated, as I understand it.
I am not aware of anything else in AS3001 (yet :) )that is a drama. Maybe you can enlighten me?
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925031
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 17:54
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 17:54
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"2,075W of PV"!!!! Peter, are you driving the wheels with this?
Actually, in my case, I have a series/parallel arrangement such that I have only two strings of 2 panels each so I fall below the 3 string limit. But if I were to put them all in parallel as I did originally then I would need fuses.
Enlighten you??
Well, I haven't found time yet to go through it conscientiously but the battery and switchboard requirements seem the most significant. There is plenty of other specifications that probably do not differ much from the old version or the prevailing AS3000 but are dealt with in a more coherent manner than before. DC Current management and cable sizing is dealt with more specifically than before but would probably not be more onerous than what previous Good Practice would have achieved. Possibly the main point is that now it is presented in a more 'professional' manner it will be easier to enforce. However, for owner built and outfitted installations, I would not be sure who or how scrutiny and inspection would be applied.
But like most technical Standards, it is likely to raise more questions than answer them for persons without electrical expertise. It is not after all a User Manual.
For those whose installation was completed before 18/11/22 there is no concern about repairs to their systems invoking upgrades. Provided that repairs are made in accordance with the legislation prevailing at the time of original installation there is not need to observe this new Standard. This means that you could, for example, upgrade your AGM battery to a Lithium that was available at the time of original construction.
The PDF version of AS/NZS3001.2. costs $191.72 whilst the hardcopy version is $212.81 Not cheap!
I am happy to respond to any specific question(s) about the document that you may ask. You can always email me. The address appears in *My Profile*__ *About me*.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 18:38
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 18:38
Not driving the wheels, but it is all electric (except a diesel option for central heating).
No gas, induction
cook top, provision for future RC split air con.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925035
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 18:45
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 18:45
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What about hot water to kitchen and shower Peter?
I considered induction cooking but preferred LPG to diesel for water heating so went all LPG.
Choices, decisions and reflections….. Ahhhh.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 19:19
Tuesday, Dec 05, 2023 at 19:19
Hot water is either:
1. Waste heat from the engine by default while driving.
2. 1000W 240V element in the 10L calorifier via inverter and solar.
3. Eberspacher-D5E diesel heater which also provides central heating and can pre-heat the engine.
The current vehicle has a very similar system using a Webasto and 30L calorifier. It has been brilliant. especially the heating via the engine which means there is always hot water after a 20 minute drive. The rate of heating is so good I reduced this one to 10L to save some weight.
The longest pipe from the calorifier to the hot water taps will be under 1m.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925037
Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 07:32
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 07:32
Peter I would love to hear more on the calorifier water heater system you are considering
I too am looking to go LPG free so looking at water heating options
FollowupID:
925038
Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 10:12
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 10:12
Surejust calorifiers
The one in the current vehicle is a
30L horizontal twin coil, the one in the new vehicle is a
10L horizontal single coil.
Then you need a hydronic style diesel heater, an extra hot water pump, some 3 way valves and 20mm hot water plumbing and a couple of radiators. I don't like the commercial radiators (too noisy) so built my own.
The result is hot water from the calorifier and central heating by circulating the hot water via the radiators.
Not cheap, but very effective.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925040
Follow Up By: Member - Cuppa - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 11:04
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 11:04
I’ll second Peter’s endorsement of the Calorifier. We have had one in our previous mororhome, one in current 4wd touring outfit & will have one in our next. To date ours have only been for hot water, but the next will incorporate space heating too.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 11:40
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 11:40
" but the next will incorporate space heating too."
Under floor no less, from pumped hot water :) Silent, no fans required.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
FollowupID:
925042
Follow Up By: Member - Cuppa - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 14:14
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 14:14
"Under floor no less, from pumped hot water :) Silent, no fans required."
Ah but it also has diesel heated water to air as
well as under floor hydronic. :)
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 21:01
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 21:01
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I did hear a whisper that Standards Australia are working on a new Standard re underfloor heating in recreational vehicles Peter. But it does take some time to develop and publish the Standard so I wouldn't suggest that you should worry. lol
FollowupID:
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Reply By: IvanTheTerrible - Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 20:14
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2023 at 20:14
Since this becoming a fairly serious discussion I think people need to quote their qualifications in this field and if they have actually read the full Australian Standard AS/NZS 3001 - Part 2.
I cant justify paying the fee to get the full update considering only one part pertains to my trade.
AnswerID:
644859
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 14:27
Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 14:27
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What "trade" is that Ivan?
FollowupID:
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 15:20
Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 15:20
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I have received a reply from Standards Australia to my request for clarification of the Lithium battery type referred to in the Standard. A copy of their response is below:
"Thanks for contacting Standards Australia.
Just regarding your enquiry below, just regarding your enquiry for clarification, Unfortunately Standards Australia does not offer a consultancy or technical advice service for Standards to answer questions on relevance, use or interpretation of publications.
Why we can’t provide this information.
For clarification on standards, unfortunately this is out of our area of expertise as we are not a government agency or involved with any regulatory advice. Although Standards Australia is involved in the creation of standards, we primarily provide the facilities and support throughout the development process. The experts involved in writing our standards are specially selected volunteers from all over Australia and are unemployed by Standards Australia.
Where you can receive clarification.
For clarification, I can provide options that I would recommend you explore:
Contact the government bodies involved with regulation for the industry and ask to get in touch with an expert. In this case, I would recommend you contact the Electrical department of regulators . I will provide their contact number below, however, I would recommend you to have a look at the contact list in case there is another department/ state you deem is more relevant."
Well that was a waste of my time. The reply continued with a list of Government and industry agencies who may be able to assist. No thanks, not going down that "rabbit hole".
After careful reading and consideration, I have determined that this Standard addresses "Lead acid batteries" and "Lithium ion batteries" with no mention of other types. It can then be assumed that other battery types are not a subject of constraint to this Standard as they do not pose the risks of Li-ion or Lead-acid batteries. After all, a standard would hardly list all the items and circumstances of stuff that does not apply. I should have realised that in the first place.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Genny - Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 16:20
Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 16:20
Unemployed by Standards Australia, eh? Let me ponder that.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 17:16
Thursday, Dec 07, 2023 at 17:16
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EDIT to AnswerID: 644863 above:
I said……"they do not pose the risks of Li-ion or LiFePO4 batteries."
I meant to say….. Li-ion or lead acid batteries.
Sorry about that 99. This thing is getting me jumpy!
NOTE: Mistake corrected by Mods - 8 December 2023.
FollowupID:
925048
Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 08:47
Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 08:47
So, many aspects of our life are governed by Standards created by unnamed volunteers and once created those Standards can’t be queried or explained.
The Standards Australia business wasn’t founded in 1984 by chance?
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 11:14
Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 11:14
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Banjo, the "volunteers" are considered experts in their field. The problem is that the more expert they are, the less likely they will compose standards intelligible to mere mortals.
FollowupID:
925053
Follow Up By: Member - Warren H - Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 14:00
Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 14:00
Lithium ion battery definition
Alan the chemist in me suspects that Li ion refers to the Li+ ion being the means of charge storage/transport and the term captures all the variations. It's a pity that the standard doesn't have a glossary of terms.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 15:03
Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 15:03
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Warren, thank you for that. The Wikipedia reference to Lithium ion batteries is exhaustive, and I might say, exhausting.
What concerns me more is that Wikipedia's page for "Lithium iron phosphate battery" begins with "The lithium iron phosphate battery (LiFePO4 battery) or LFP battery (lithium ferrophosphate) is a type of lithium-ion battery."
……………….."LiFePO4 IS A TYPE OF LITHIUM-ION BATTERY"……………….
Warren, thank you for your perception. I only wish I had received it prior to my publishing my interpretations of the Standard.
So there it is. I had searched on this but found no result. I failed to use Wikipedia as one of my search
places.
As Warren said…." It's a pity that the standard doesn't have a glossary of terms."
Well it does have "Terms and Definitions" but on batteries, all it describes is a battery in kindergarten terms.
Considering the public's general understanding on distinction of Li-ion and Lithium iron phosphate batteries, it is a failing of the Standard that they were not more explicit rather than pedantic.
Ladies & gentlemen, boys & girls, I have been totally wrong in my interpretations of this Standard. Please disregard anything I have said about Lithium batteries. In fact, just disregard me completely.
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 07:16
Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 07:16
Well there you go Allan, the boffins who write these standards assume that everyone has the same understanding of things as they do.
They also quite often use the word “should” when they actually mean “must”. Using the word “should” leaves it open to the interpretation of the reader, because “should” is not a mandatory instruction where as “must” is. To put this into context, when writing instructions the next step might be written, “Next you should connect A to B”. This implies that whilst this is the appropriate step, you can choose to ignore it and do something else instead.
The definition of the word “should” is the most appropriate action. Where as the definition of the word “must” is a compulsory action.
Macca.
FollowupID:
925058
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 08:58
Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 08:58
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Thanks Macca. But about the word "should". It's as you say. It infers an advice of obligation. And in the case of standards that is all it is….. an advice that you "should" observe if you wish to avoid offending a legislation imposed by someone other than the standard publisher. At least, that is the way they view it. You see how pedantic they are?
I was always in awe by the "No Parking" signs at
Woomera…… an authoritative military precinct.
The signs proclaimed…. "Vehicles WILL Not Park Here". Not "Should" or "Must" but "WILL".
Not advising that it was not allowed, but that it simply was not going to happen. No disobedience even possible!!
FollowupID:
925059
Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Dec 10, 2023 at 08:18
Sunday, Dec 10, 2023 at 08:18
Did you park there to prove it can happen ?
FollowupID:
925068
Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 13:44
Friday, Dec 08, 2023 at 13:44
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Regarding battery direct type replacement or change from AGM lead-acid to LiFePO4 two Sections in the Standard are pertinent.
In Section 1.5.1.1 "Alterations—General" says: "Alterations to electrical installations in connectible electrical installations shall comply with AS/NZS 300except as varied heron and with the additional requirements of this Standard."
Section 1.5 .2.1 "Repairs—General" says …… "Repairs to existing electrical installations in connectable electrical installations or parts thereof may be effected using methods, fixtures and fittings that were acceptable when that part of the electrical installation was originally installed or with methods, fixtures and fittings currently available as a direct replacement, provided that the methods satisfy the fundamental safety principles of AS/NZS 3000."
My interpretation of that is that, in an installation completed before 18 November 2023, an AGM lead-acid battery could be replaced with like without the installation being required to be upgraded to a specified vented enclosure. Also that the battery type could be changed, ("using methods, fixtures and fittings that were acceptable when that part of the electrical installation was originally installed") to LiFePO4, which I have determined, is not subject to the current Standard requirement of a ventilated enclosure in any case.
Requirements of vented enclosure and spill trays are only referenced to "Lead-acid" batteries (which would include AGM type) and to "Lithium-ion" batteries. In this respect, the Standard only addresses these two types and makes no such requirements for other battery types such as Gel or LiFePO4. It is obvious (although unstated) that there is concern only for Lead-acid and Lithium-ion batteries in respect to venting or spilling hazardous vapours or liquids.
AnswerID:
644870
Reply By: North 200 - Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 09:07
Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 09:07
Extra Low Voltage (ELV): Less than 50vac or 120vdc.
Low Voltage (LV): Above ELV but not more than 1000vac or 1500vdc.
High Voltage (HV): Above LV.
No one has been able to give me a clear answer if you need an electrician to work on installing a solar panel string with an open circuit voltage below (ELV) 120vdc.
AnswerID:
644872
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 09:17
Saturday, Dec 09, 2023 at 09:17
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I know the answer but I don't give electrical advice anymore. Sorry.
FollowupID:
925060
Reply By: Member - PhilD_NT - Sunday, Jan 21, 2024 at 22:15
Sunday, Jan 21, 2024 at 22:15
I'm sorry to reopen this subject, but we're currently researching buying a new camper and there's an aspect of the new Standards that affects our decision.
While I understand the requirement to provide an enclosed box vented to the outside, I'm trying to reconcile differing information as to whether that enclosure is restricted to ONLY the batteries themselves, or if battery chargers etc. are also allowed to be in that space. Pictures of the camper we like seem to show other components also being in the area.
I want to be sure of the facts if I'm going to tell the Manufacturer that they need to alter the design.
AnswerID:
645132
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 00:45
Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 00:45
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Hi Phil, I see nothing in the Standard that specifically precludes related devices such as chargers within the battery compartment. However, the Standard makes repeated reference to the "Battery Compartment" which could imply that this enclosure is specific to the battery alone.
The Standard also makes several references to the battery compartment being required to be lined with acid-resistant and anti-corrosive finish so it anticipates the possibility of corrosive material, and would therefore not be a desirable location for ancillary devices. For my own part, I would construct with an exclusive compartment for the battery on the basis of 'good practice'.
You could ask the camper manufacturer if they have sought and received advice from the appropriate Authority in the State of manufacture. Or you could seek a definition yourself from such Authority. Try Googling "Electrical Safety Authority" for the State in question. Their actual title varies from State-to-State. You may of course receive differing advice from differing sources.
FollowupID:
925391
Follow Up By: Member - PhilD_NT - Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 01:32
Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 01:32
Thanks Allan,
It is my intention to raise the issue, but I just wanted to make sure I was correct as I've been seeking answers to a few things and this one may push our friendship.
I was trawling a few Facebook discussions earlier and saw one where obviously the person had some limited knowledge of the changes, but his solution was plywood surrounds and a clear plastic top. It seems that the info on this change isn't being understood enough.
In reviewing a lot of different makes of campers/caravan I've only seen one so far who has put some thought into the issue as they have a floor hatch and the batteries under the chassis between the independent
suspension parts. No advertising about it and it was only that I saw a picture with the hatch on the floor and asked as to the purpose. As it's the time of year for new or updated models to come out It will be interesting to see the differing approaches that Manufacturers come up with, if they fully understand it anyway.
Unfortunately, some may take the easy way out and just make the compartment big enough to take their desired battery capacity and make it difficult to add more capacity later. In the case of our desired camper, I'm trying to get a modification made to make later expansion easier.
FollowupID:
925392
Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 12:52
Monday, Jan 22, 2024 at 12:52
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Phil, I think you are in the Northern Territory. If so, the agency to contact regarding electrical regulations and possibly determinations of AS/NZS 3001 would be
NT Worksafe.
FollowupID:
925394