Connecting Caravan to Household power

Hi
Re"2/ If you know the van won't draw more than 10A ie then just make up an extension lead with a 10 plug on one end and a 15A socket on the other, not legal but a lot of people do this. Note though if your van has an airconditioner or electric oven you'll most likely trip the circuit breaker on the house circuit if you turn them on""

No
WHAT is MOST in fact ALMOST CERTAIN, likely is the 10amp outlet will overheat due to IT being overloaded
The result, possible fire, result insurance void due to using an illegal non approved lead

DO it right safegaurd your self,& your home
Peter

Hi
Cannot edit so an extra
The house circuit breaker will be either 16 or 20amp it is very unlikely to trip unless other high consumption appliances are being used onTHAT circuit AT THAT TIME
Peter

Hi Pete,

Why would the outlet overheat? I assume its 2.5mm2 wirting rated at 28a (from what i recall of AS3000) and the 10A and 15A GPO's only differ in the size of the erath pin hole and hardware behind it, the active and neutral on the GPO's are identical?

Bonz

I concur with the general rationale you have applied above and wish to ask the following using your stated '2.5mm2 wiring rated at 28a' for a 15A lead and plugs.

(a) 28A x 240V = 6720watts (Rated maximum power draw on subject lead)

(b) If the power draw increases above the aforementioned maxim rate this is when the whole shebang starts to heat up.

(c) (b) above is the point where a correctly rated Fuse, Circuit breaker etc blows/trips telling you that you have breached the safety limit of that circuit.

An example of this is the kitchen of our house:- Should we have the vacuum cleaner, microwave and toaster going at the same time using a particular combination of the zillion power points available, then bang! a one of the 16A circuit breakers in the switch box trips.

Now as these are 10A plugs going into 10A sockets/outlets or GPO's that are connected to 2.5mm2 wiring, according to what Pete is saying, they should in fact be hot.

I have immediately checked the leads and plugs on these three appliances a number of times for any signs of heat and all have been as cold as, which I have always attributed to the circuit breaker doing its job.

So as far as I can see, the only purpose for the use of and incorporation of that big mother of an earth pin in the 15A plugs and sockets, is a design standard initiated by authorities to ensure that manufacturers make 15A leads with 2.5mm2 wiring in them and with plugs and sockets that will only interface with 2.5mm2 wiring supplies.

Would this be a reasonable deduction.

DD

PS

(1) Just so you aware, now that I have identified the three offending Socket Outlets in the kitchen area, I desist from using same simultaneously.

(2) For you 'all things electrical experts' I came across this little gem.

General Purpose Outlet - It is an electrical term.

The definition for GPO in the AS3000 – Australian Standard for Wiring Rules is "three pin flat pin 10 amp socket outlet" or power point as commonly known. But now There is no GPO. the definition was removed from the 2000 edition of the wiring rules, those power points are now defined as Socket Outlets.


They are apparently known as Socket Outlets these days dudes.

Hi Bonz

Re :"Bonz (Vic) posted:
Hi Pete,

Why would the outlet overheat? I assume its 2.5mm2 wirting rated at 28a (from what i recall of AS3000) and the 10A and 15A GPO's only differ in the size of the erath pin hole and hardware behind it, the active and neutral on the GPO's are identical?"end quote]

Perhaps my post was not clear
I will try for a full explanation

[1] the wiring
, 2.5mm2 rating depends on the installation
Table C5 gives the CB rating for 2core &earth in different conditions

25 amp in FREE air

,20amp when in air but enclosed[between walls behind switchboards etc

20amp is the size in general use
The CB is to protect the wiring from overheating

[2] GPO outlet socket
The combination only need to be tested to a 10% overload to comply with the standards
That means it can be designed to only be capable of carrying 11amps continuously WHEN NEW without over heating

Some manufactuers MAY ,for ease of component stocking,use the same switch etc components , but this cannot be assumed
But even if they do use the same compnents they must still have each size marked with the specific rating

If the load connected to the 10amp rated outlet iis exceeded, that outlet could be forced to carry in excess of 100% overload contiinuously before the 20amp CB would trip

Contact resistance is the problem , a 100% encrease in current means AN EXTRA 300% heat generated due to contact resistance
When new ,with clean contact faces, good contact sping pressurre, they may be able to hold that for a short time
BUT with age ,contacts faces tarnish, contact preesure weakens
The heat can rise dramatically & fires HAVE resulted even with an approved 10amp load

The purpose of the BIG earth pin is basically a key
It is to prevent access to an underated outlet socket for the 15amp load

That is why loads which are in excess of 10amps SHALL have a higher rated PLUG fitted otherwise they will not get approval

Your van is classed as such a load, IT requires a 15amp plug
This may be reduced if the vans possible load is reduced by means if a 10AMP CB in the van
I hope all can see this is not really anything to do with house wiring as many seemto assume
IT IS ALL TO DO WITH THE OUTLET BEING OVERLOADED

Peter

Hi Cannot edit
So a little extra
15amp outlets also only have to meet the 10% overload requirement
Be able to carry 16.5 amps continuously WHEN NEW with out overheating

The required pull out pressure for a 15amp is much higher than for a 10amp.

Contact pressure can have a significant effect on contact resistance,even more so with ageing
Peter

Ah! I see it all now (finally) - Contact Resistance is the 'key issue' and I was correct in assuming that the big mother of a 15A earth pin is a device used by the regulators in an attempt to ensure that all 15A plugs and sockets are made to specs that provide the correct 'Contact resistance'

Took awhile but you finally got me over the line on this one Peter.

Many thanks and I think I may renew all my 15A leads as they are approx 10years old and no doubt the plugs and sockets will have deteriorated a tad. More so that I use a generator that has a 15A outlet socket on it.

DD

DD you need only renew the plugs on the leads I reckon and yes as Pete sasy the 15A plug earth is simply a mechanical thing to stop you plugging into a 15a outlet.

Thanx Pete, for the explanation, I can understand the electrics as well as the resistance. Where are the 10% rules from re the GPO manufactuiring things written? Are they in Australian standards?

Bonz

Also DD the ratings and configuration of outlets on circuits takes into account some averagiign of load, i.e there is an assumption that not all points will be in use at the same time. 28A may be the rating of the cable but I wouldnt want to run it at that for very long

Hmm the word I was searching for was "diversified" load

HI Bonz

RE:-Bonz (Vic) posted:
"Hmm the word I was searching for was "diversified" load"

More commomly called the "diversity factor"
where the total of all the possible loads on a circuit is derated by a factor
Different devises a treated differently
Different combiniations of loads, different factor is applied
Again takes up quite a few pages

But is the reason that it is no just as simple as removing a10amp double outlet & replacing it with a single 15amps

Peter

Hi Bonz

Re:"Thanx Pete, for the explanation, I can understand the electrics as well as the resistance. Where are the 10% rules from re the GPO manufactuiring things written? Are they in Australian standards? end quote

EVERY piece of electrical equipment is covered somewhere in A cross referenced standard

The one covering plugs & sockets is AS /NZS 3112 :2004
I did have a copy on my old Hard drive that crashed.
Lost it & a lot of other good stuff

Peter

I'll add, I have a 15amp lead with 15amp plugs for use in parks, it stays in the camper.
:)

Hi
All of the above suggested 10amp to 15amp leads are illegal
Such leads cannot be purchased ,will not be made up be a RESPONSABLE electrician.
IT is illegal in most states for a none qualified person to make up or modify ANY lead
Many using them , does not make them safe or a sensible practise
The supporters put up long arguments for there use
These arguments will not stand up if your house burns down & insurance refuse to pay up Or any other serious consequence occurs

The Two legal options are
[1]get a 15amp power outlet installed
or
[2]purchase a fully approved Amphibian lead specifically made & APPROVED for the purpose

If you wish to see a lot of discussion ,just do a search on ANY forum for "10to 15amp lead"
The final decision is yours!!!
Peter

Hi Peter,
I don't load up my leads and never have, they are never coiled over each other and I use as little draw on them as possible.
As I mentioned I use the house 10amp to get the fridge down to temp and to charge my batteries when needed, never the two at the same time.
I can understand that some will load theirs up with all kinds of appliances and wonder why it keeps tripping out.
Also as mentioned, If I need to use more power I will plug into the houses external power points.
BTW, I don't have 240v lights, all my lights are LED's and run off the 12V system.

Cheers

Jon and Karen rest assured you are not alone you have many mates.

Cheers :)

Yes I too have made up a "cheater lead" about half a metre long and 15amp lead with a 10 amp plug on one end and just plug into standard 15 amp lead to van
Use it at home and even when friends stay in the van with air con going we have never had a problem.
I know it isn't legal but neither is talking on your mobile while driving (not that I ever do that even on outback roads with no traffic, cough)
Cheers Ray

Thanks everyone, but this advice is what I am looking for. Only because I would like to park my caravan outside friends and 'simply' plug into their household supply. Otherwise I just get a sparky to install a 15 amp power point as recommended.

Thanks.

Just looked at the device and silly me thought I could still run my Air con etc using this device! From what I have read about this device it is a legal 10 - 15A RCD and overload device. I will probably purchase one of these so I can plug in legally to friends power supplies, but will install a 15A circuit at home so we can run the van, great for me when I am in the "dog house". ;)

Hey DD,

Well you learn something new every day. That AMPFIBIAN looks like a great solution.

Cheers
Stu

Hi DD
Just as you say ,one can do anything they like,legal or not.
All ok until they get caught or something goes wrong
Pleased to see you yourself have enough sense to have an Ampfibian
YES, it still is the only fully approved devise
But sorry one little point
While it gives you a legal lead to connect your genny to the Jayco
PLEASE do not be under misunderstanding that IT's OR your Jayco's RCDs are operative THEY ARE NOT
No plug in RCD can function with an isolated genny or inverter


Peter

Thanks DD, you cleared up my questions for me, We collect our BS in a couple of weeks cant wait. Are you happy with yours?
Thanks too to Toby for raising the question.

O-G

Yes. we are very happy with our BS.

It is one of the first releases (Ordered 09/07 and received 05/08) and ordered with a Simplicity Suspension and 2 x double bunks (for grand kids)

Being the first of a new model there are the odd 1 or 2 things etc that didn't work as designed such as the table, which I have now modified to my own design and all function as I want them to.

Also added a bucket load of extras to it as you tend to do to get what ever it is to how you like it.

Enjoy

DD

Hi Mark
Where did you see those
25mts is the max for 1.5m2 general purpose 15amp lead
Peter

I can't believe that some posters are not only suggesting but recommending that others should use illegal leads.
That includes Cheat lead, earth contact filed, or the fitting a 10 amp male plug.
To suggest or recommend to some that someone break the law is in itself an offence.
If you (And heaps of others) use an illegal leads, then I suggest you keep the fact to yourself.
Ozjohn.

Hi Ozjohn
I can only HOPE that your comments sink in

But sadly , I doubt it will make any difference to them.

After all ,THEY have been doing it for years & nothing has happened
Based on that , in THEIR opinion it must be ok
To those who have some sense ,responsibility, do the sensible thing
GET A FULLY APPROVED & THEREFOR LEGAL ADAPTER
"Ampfibian "
I am sure it will not break your bank &you have a high level of peace of mind

Peter

Hi Peter, I reckon you've made your point, and its a good one. In the end people will make their own decision rightly or wrongly and they will live with the consequences. As DD said above there is one legal solution other than the 15A plug install.

This too is not in accordance with the Australian wiring standard David. There are strict limits on what can be installed on a circuit and its not as easy as removing a double 10A outlet from a circuit. Any reputable sparky will tell you that and refuse to do such a job.

Hear Hear!