1HZ Using oil

Submitted: Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:46
ThreadID: 100183 Views:5043 Replies:10 FollowUps:28
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Hi there. I checked my dipstick after fueling up the other day. Assuming 15 mins was long enough for all the oil to drain back into the pan , I used 1 litre of oil in. 5000k's. not blowing any smoke, and no oil leaks. Any idea where my oil is going folks?
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Reply By: olcoolone - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:52

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:52
I would be hardly concerned with 1lt per 5000K, could be going out the exhaust....... using oil is not a bad thing but it does depend on how much.

How many K's has it done.
AnswerID: 503347

Follow Up By: Axle - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:26

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:26
I agree Olcoolone,...Not much oil really,.....But this is comming from a Landy owner,...What i did find suprisingly, i changed from castrol 15/40 to Caltex Calibre 15/40, and there was a marked difference in oil usage,...Dunno!..:)))).

Cheers Axle
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:44

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:44
Axle..... different oils have different properties and depending on how stable the oil is at different temps and loads and what fillers and modifiers they add to the base stock some oils will work better for a specific engine and age.

If you can find a oil that works for you and you have good proof of it's advantages I would stick to it.


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Reply By: get outmore - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:54

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:54
15 minutes isnt long enough

I find the oild on the dipstick can fluctuate quite a bit depending on when you take the reading and even not quite flat ground effects it

only reliable way to get an idea is to check the oil after its been standing all night in the driveway where you always park it
ive never had to add oil to a 1hz between 5k services
AnswerID: 503348

Reply By: Member - eighty matey - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:01

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:01
I've found as the oil gets older that can happen.

My Cruiser will be fine and suddenly use a litre after a 500km run.

Steve
AnswerID: 503351

Reply By: Ross M - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 14:00

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 14:00
IronJosh

There are a lot of reasons why the engine could use oil.
Firstly the engine may have done a lot of km and it is using oil because of the sad state of the rings.
The oil quality you use is also important, if you are not using a world recognized proven brand, then you may have trouble.

You may have been trickling around town and the oil has suffered some diesel dilution which makes it thinner and when you go for a long hot run the thinned enigine oil will pass the rings and valve stem seals more easily and be burnt off ie lowering the sump level. Little bit often = no visible smoke but uses the oil anyway.
When you say" no smoke", is that with you looking in the mirror to try and see it or is it from a person following you and looking and breathing it the fumes?? May be an entirely different story. You can use a reverse camera to monitor exhaust haze/smoke.

When dipping after stopping a HOT engine the oil, like when you drain it HOT, will run back to the sump very quickly. The engine relies on the fact that it WILL run back quickly, otherwise the oil would be stacking up the top and running out the pcv line under some degree of pressure. You don't have to wait overnight for hot oil to find the sump with gravity assisting it.
An engine drained HOT with filler open will dump all into the drum and after that only a very small amount will drip off. The drip off, being what falls into the sump after switch off.
Hardly significant and nothing like half a litre, 100ml perhaps and that won't be significant on a dip stick with a sump capacity of 10 litres.

You now have to work out :
Is it poor oil quality I use?
Are the rings stuffed/worn?
Have I been towning stop/start for a fair few km?

If the engine doesn't leak oil then it has to be going out the exhaust.

Ross M
AnswerID: 503363

Follow Up By: ironJosh - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:51

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 16:51
The old girl has done 320,000ks now. I use castrol delo 400 multigrade oil. The engine runs quite smoothly now I have changed the shims. I guess it's concerning because I want to turbo it but if there is something already wrong, the engine could blow if it wouldn't have otherwise.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:00

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 20:00
After just 15 minutes of sitting it will show approx 1/2way on the dipstick whereas in the morning it will show full. I've pulled out more than enough 1hz dipsticks to be able to assure you of that
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Follow Up By: happytravelers - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 21:10

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 21:10
I agree with you, the 1HZ oil drain back behaves differently to most other engines, unsure why! It has to be left over night on very level ground to get a true reading.
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Reply By: Rockape - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:27

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 18:27
Josh,
guess you know your engine well and as said it can be oil dilution that you have burnt off on a big run, checking the oil to early when hot and I have found 15mins way to short a time. Oil also tends to be used when you get close to the 5000k mark. Otherwise it is going out the chimney.

1HZ engines are renowned for going the full 5000k and not using oil at all. Having driven at least 50 different 1HZ engined Tojo's, I found the only time they would start to use oil was when the engine hours were really high. 8000 hours and over. These engines were used in very dusty conditions and they differently would have been dusted at those hours.
You would notice them not engine breaking as well on steep grades and they would be down on power as well. One thing is, they would just keep going and going.

You are not going wrong using delo 400. Good oil used by many commercial operators and farmers.

To be honest I wouldn't consider a turbo on that engine unless it had a birthday. In fact I personally don't like turbos on engines that weren't designed for them, but that is my view. The internals of a Turbo engine an a N/a engine are like chalk and cheese.

RA.
AnswerID: 503387

Follow Up By: ironJosh - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:05

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:05
How does diesel dilution happen?
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:23

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 19:23
Mate, over time and certain weather conditions you can get both a build up of fuel and water condensation in the sump that makes the dipstick look like the sump is full of oil. The fuel gets into the sump past the rings and the water by condensation during the transition from a hot engine to a cold one during winter.

If you go for a big run the engine will get rid of the fuel and water through the crankcase ventilation system. The engine will then burn it off and you will say. How come I have dropped .5 of a litre in a 1000k run.

Hot run engines may last to around 700,000k before they show signs of problems if at all. I believe Doug T's 1Hz has well over 700,000k on it. I am not sure if he now has had to have a look at it. He used his on pilot work, so it would have been turning some big K's and would be hot much of the time so wear is reduced.

RA.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 22:28

Friday, Jan 25, 2013 at 22:28
IronJosh
Diesel dilution occurs when the diesel injected into the cylinder hits the cylinder wall above the rings as the piston rises. Some of this isn't burnt.
The pressure of combustion forces the small amount of fuel trapped beside the piston crown and on the cylinder wall down past the rings.
This amount is not very much, but when it happens thousands of times a minute for hours of tootling around, then the diesel builds up in the sump and raises the oil to a false level. Usually as a result of lots of stop start driving around town.
Unfortunately, this is also thinning the oil as diesel is thinner than oil.

If anyone can explain how a 1HZ takes along time to drain I am very interested in the theories. To me apart from the cavities for the buckets in the head which stay full anyway and the oil gall galleries which are an engine length of garden hose in volume, where is all this oil coming from?

PS How far down does the dip stick tube go in a 1HZ, does it stop above the oil level OR go below the oil level?

Ross M
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:59

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 08:59
Don't know Ross but it was noticeable at our shift change when we would prestart the vehicles from the previous shift. My 6.5l chev was the same. check her 10mins after a long run and you would think you should add 500ml. Check it next morning and it would be on the full mark.

One you might be able to clear up is Nissan engines, the 3l and 4.2 (Note! not bagging nissan) showing no oil at all on the dipstick. This seems to be a random problem. There have been a few reports of owners having a fit when they would check their oil hot and then add 2 or 3 litres only to find the sump overfilled by the same amount later.

Met a contract cane harvester at Richmond so he knew machinery well. He was draining 3 litres out of his 4.2 after being caught with the same problem. It had never happened to him before that.

RA.

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Follow Up By: burnsy - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:55

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:55
You will find that over night the oil runs out of the oil filter into the sump and makes a big difference in the sump level.
I know they have a drain back valve in them but most don't work very well.

A quick test: on first start up look how long the oil pressure gauge takes to come up, Stop the engine for 5 minutes and try again you will notice the difference.
Maybe the oil also runs out of the pressure galleries .

Regard Mike.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:16

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:16
Mike,
the 6.5 has a right way up vertical filter at sump level. So no drain back from that.
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Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:51

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:51
Firstly I think the oil dilution thing is seriolusly over stated.

If you have 500ml of diesel in ya sump you have a very very serious problem...if the engine is not buggered it soon will be.

Lets stop grasping as straws and go back to some basic observations.

Have you checked the oil level throughout the 5000Km oil change period?
Did you check the oil level when the vehicle had been driven the first time after oil change.

Have you checked the oil level at a variety of different times to account for the filter drain back issues as discussed above?

Check level immediately after the engine stops, after 10 minutes ( that should be plenty to drain back the head and such) after a couple of hours and overnight.

The idea that your oil levels are varying to any significant level due to diesel dilution or water content on a perfectly heathy motor in my opinion is little more than a bad dream.

1 liter in 5000Km is not a high consumption for an older motor, if that amount of oil is steadily going past the rings or the valve guides you are unlilkey to see it.

BTW, have you taken it for a good long highway run ( at least 4 hours) with a couple of good range pulls.
Sometimes that will clean the crap out from behind the rings and things will go much better for it.

Stick with the Dello, ya cant go wrong there.

Might be worth checking you PCV system.

cheers

AnswerID: 503424

Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:33

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:33
Ironjosh
there is nothing wrong with your 1HZ from what you describe

Despite the mis information some on here have told you I didndt say 15 minutes is no where near enough time for all the oil to drain back for fun which was the basic reason for your post
forget the theory behind oil drainback times - heres the indisputable fact




[






AnswerID: 503426

Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:38

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:38
as you can see even after 1/2 an hour of sitting there not much has drained back which is exactly what i would expect to see
basically on a 1hz thats been used during the day i wouldnt expect to see any more than 1/2 on the dipstick but i would expect to see full first thing in the morning
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:28

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 13:28
That seems to show the oil is full at 8 48 but had disappeared and by 9 20 it has lost oil.

Shouldn't it be the other way around ie at 8 49 it is low and at 9 20 it is higher if what is happening is happening?
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Follow Up By: Axle - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:21

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:21
LolRoss , What is going on here!!!!, the mind boggles sometimes.


Cheers Axle
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:22

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:22
(rolls eyes because he now has to spell it out)

after sitting all night the level was where you see it in the first pic at 8.49

after starting and leaving for 31 minutes the level is barly at the add mark

now i didnt want to bore you with endless pics because i thought you might have got it (I was wrong) but at 11.30 nearly 3 hours later the level was still only 1/2 way between add and full

please just accept the fact i didnt post my comments for fun

15 minutes isnt even nearly close enough to allow all the oil to drain back in a 1hz
- even 3 hours isnt

exactly as i said which you disagreed with and lead poor ole mate to think there might be something wrong with his donk
and now have backed up with pics which your still asking questions about??
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:26

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 15:26
oh and for the record that donk has well over 300k on the clock and in 8 years ive never added oil
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 17:57

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 17:57
Ah now I get it, I missed the fine print between the two photos that explained that the engine had been started after the first photo was taken and then the engine shut down and left standing for 31 minutes before the oil was dipped again.
Not sure how I missed that, probably too busy scratching my head...lol

(;-))

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: ironJosh - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:08

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:08
Thanks for taking the time to post those photo's mate! There's just one thing:

8 Years and you have never changed the oil? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you don't drive it much!
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:40

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:40
Lol never added oil between services
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:19

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:19
iron Josh,

As Ross and Rockape have explained engine oil can suffer fuel and water dilution particularly if the normal work and back or whatever short runs are the general rule. This can happen with petrol or diesel engines. Take them for a good long run and quite often the level in the sump will drop. For an engine like the 1HZ with pre-combustion design and glow plugs they need a little longer to get to an operating temperature where the complete combustion of the injected fuel will burn. I am talking about piston crown, cylinder wall and cylinder head firedeck temps not what your coolant gauge is saying. While the engine is warming up thoroughly some fuel can wash past the piston rings and end up in the sump. When you get home from a run and the car is sitting in the carport and cooling down some air can be drawn back into the crankcase via the breather system. With that air will be a small amount of moisture depending on how much difference there is between the operating temperature when running and how cold it gets at night will determine how much condensation will occur.
Now an engine with a few k's on the clock will probably use some oil depending on it's service history and what conditions it has operated under. While relatively short runs are the norm the genuine usage may be made up for by the addition of some fuel or water so it appears that the engine is not using any oil. Then comes the holidays and maybe a van or trailer full of goodies gets hooked on and a run of a couple of hundred k's working hard gets done. All of a sudden all the fuel and water is evaporated out of the oil and hey the level has dropped.
Check your oil first thing in the morning before starting and again the next morning before starting and compare.

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 503443

Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:28

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:28
Pop,
for josh's info. That 6.5l of mine running empty would take close to 200k
in winter to get the oil to it's normal operating temp. I am talking central Qld winter as well.

Have a good Aussie day,
RA.
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FollowupID: 780124

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:49

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 18:49
RA
Yep, that's why on or off highway trucks have radiator shutters and fan clutches. Warm the coolant up quicker and the oil cooler heats the oil up sooner. Then the whole package is a much happier little vegemite (;-))


Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 19:15

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 19:15
Pop,
LOL. I had a big giggle at the vegemite.
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Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 22:25

Saturday, Jan 26, 2013 at 22:25
I may know quite well, how and when the oil, will or will not be, in the sump.
Others may not if they aren't familiar with engines.
Hence the query.

As one post said "You have started it after the 8 49"
You knew what you were doing, perhaps not all did.

As it stands the 1Hz must have an upside down filter which has a drain back valve which never works properly and because of the design of the engine copious amounts of other oil remains up near the cam defying gravity, for a long time apparently. There is nowhere else it can be. If filler cap was removed, it should be able to see said oil retention and therefore no degree of intrigue at all.

One thing hasn't been explained is.
With some engines the dipstick seal at the top of the tube is GOOD.
While running oil will retreat from the bottom of the dipstick tube.and the running level in the sump will hardly register on the stick.

When stopped, the oil does not reenter the dipstick tube to the true level of the oil in the sump ( all depends on how long the tube is)and if a once only withdrawing of the dipstick is taken as the reading, it will show low.

However, if it is dipped a second time it will read correctly, as the oil has now run up the tube to the correct level, which is now read at the second dip.

This will happen more so if the dip tube is on the LHS of the engine and the vehicle is leaning slightly to the LHS. Seen it many times.
AnswerID: 503447

Reply By: olcoolone - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:37

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:37
Maybe someone can answer a simple question for me....... Why is everyone making a big deal about a 320,000K 1HZ using 1lt of oil every 5000k.

There has nearly been 30 posts on this topic with ideas and solutions including a discussion on how long to wait before checking the oil.

Please stop humouring me...... if it was using 3-5 lts evry 5000k then there might be a reason to be concerned.

I didn't know you needed a PHD to check the oil....... come on guys take a look at your replies, how hard can it be to check the oil.... it's pretty idiot proof.

Josh if your concerned I would seriously start thing about a $5000-$10000 engine rebuild for a cure for this BIG problem you have.

Hey has anyone asked what oil and grade he is using...... might have something to do with it!

I might have something to do with the white writing on his tyres being on the inside or outside...... or the moon phase..... might be related to December's end of the world......

It's starting to remind me of 5 men around a BBQ grunting and groaning trying to find a scientific solution to a non scientific problem...... it's using a litre of oil ....BIG DEAL.
AnswerID: 503461

Follow Up By: Rockape - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 13:40

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 13:40
I just used my academic knowledge to work out Josh is using Delo 400 15/w40. I think others may have just read it. LOL.

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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:16

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 19:16
Olcoolone, Great question!!,.. But you should know by now where all sad arses", with our head stuck in a screen......Hahahahahahaha.!


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:52

Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 at 22:52
I think I definitively demonstrated he has no prohlem
Case closed
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Follow Up By: ironJosh - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 00:22

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 00:22
So many tough guy's and smart-ass's on the internet....
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 00:45

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 00:45
You know what ironJosh, you proved me wrong, I would have thought you would have long since pulled your hat down over your eyes, put your hands over your ears and departed the scene muttering something about "a bunch of grumpy old farts"

Hope you got something out of all the waffle (;-))

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 04:22

Monday, Jan 28, 2013 at 04:22
WTF?

sorry for trying to help

your post claimed you thought your donk might have had problems because oil was down on the dipstick 15 minutes later

i told you you had no problem based on thatI

some guy with zero clue disagreed with me

at expense to my time i definitly proved via photographic evidence 15 minutes is no where near enough time to allow oil to drain back

and then you have a whinge????
did you actually want help or not???
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FollowupID: 780193

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