Electronic Stability Control on caravans.

Hi Peter,
Checked your link to ALKO and it appears to do automatically what I do manually.
I thought it might be a bit more sophisticated than that.
Thanks for the info

I would say it uses a yaw rate sensor much like modern vehicles with stability control does........ I think it would acted quicker and more accurately by varying the amount of brake force then a professional caravan tower can do........ no matter how good a driver.

One thing is you can not beat modern technology, something that may take us seconds to do can be done electronically in milliseconds.

Sure we can apply the brake manually once our powerful brain determines something is not right and in most cases too late unlike electronic technology that can detect the smallest change and be proactive before it is too late.

Hi Peter and Olcoolone,
I was initially interested in the sequence of braking on either side of the caravan.
I agree my brain is not as fast as a computer and its speed decreases with age.
I compensate by keeping my speed low, around 85ks/hr.

I just gave the front page thinking that others would dredge through the other pages as well.

My 2013 Landcruiser Sahara also has Trailer Sway Control.

Hi Wamuranman,
I don’t have a quality vehicle just a plain old Troopy - everything’s manual.

Hi Dennis.
I don't have a Silverado ...yet...but I can dream.
I have to resort to driving a Nissan at present.
But I think the next generation of 4x4 will all have TSC , its just that some are leading the way in this area (more expensive ones probably) like the Sahara and Silverado, Ford F250 etc etc.
Cheers

Mate - No point in me dreaming, I don’t even know what a Silverardeo is.
It sounds to flash for me - I probably wouldn’t take it bush for fear of scratching it.

Current ranger, bt50, amarok all have it. Not uncommon, plenty of 'quality' not so further afield these days if you take the time to look.

Yes gbc it is true that many new models do have TSC but its mainly only in the past 2 years they have started to fit it. I had a 2010 200 series and it did not have it and it was not an option. But as HunterGatherer stated above it is now (2013) on the 200series (at least in the Sahara model).
But the Silverado has had TSC since 2003 or 2004 I recall. TSC is just a first stage (if you like) of an improved braking system for tow vehicles. All TSC does is brake/not brake the tow vehicle automatically if it detects trailer sway. The Silverado comes with electric brakes on the tow vehicle already built in. This means the trailer brakes can be activated and integrated into the total ABS braking system of the tow vehicle/trailer. This can never be achieved by an add-on electric brake system such as a Tekonsha (no matter how good they are) that we fit here aftermarket to our Nissans, Toyotas, etc etc.
Thus as far as I am aware (happy to be proved wrong) the TSC system and the ITBC (integrated trailer brake control) on the Silverado is a more advanced system than that on the Landcruiser, Ranger BT50 etc.
That was the point I was making.

Most Euro cars have had trailer stability control since 2005-07.

Here is some light reading.

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2008-01-1228.pdf

"This can never be achieved by an add-on electric brake system such as a Tekonsha (no matter how good they are) that we fit here aftermarket to our Nissans, Toyotas, etc etc."

Well there you go. I think this shows you are not very well switched on when it comes to the subject. The Al-Ko ESC is not fitted to our tugs. It is fitted to our vans.

If you read the postings from people like Collyn Rivers who have worked in the field of vehicle suspension and stability you will see that they think that TSC in the tugs may not be overly effective when towing out large vans. If it has coupling to the trailer brakes like the Silverado then it should be OK. However the European systems have been developed around their well designed shorter vans. When it comes to our large vans where the the local manufacturers don't have a clue about designing stable vans and then to add to it all the things the owners hang off both ends the European style vehicles TSC may not be able to cope.

ESC is really catching on in Europe. This is despite the fact that many of the European tugs being fitted with TSC. I think ESC has a place on out vans unless our tugs have the TSC coupled to out vans like the Silverado has. If it does not have value then why do GM fit the coupling to their vehicles?

Sometime ago I read Collyn Rivers advice on the problem of snaking or wobbling associated with large vans. In his opinion vans over 5 meters should be limited to 90ks an hour.
I have a van over 7 meters and it can wobble when hit by the air turbulence bow wave of large trucks. I don’t have a problem correcting this and my speed limit is 85ks on good roads.

It's good to travel at a speed you feel safe and comfortable with but you need to also be aware of other road users..... every time someone overtakes you you increasing the risk of an accident.

With a properly set up vehicle and trailer there should be no issues of sitting safely on the speed limit on good open roads.

The other problem is a driver catches a vehicle going slow and can not overtake...... then another catches....... and another..... and another..... and another all sitting within one to two car lengths of each other and everyone is either too sacred or being courteous to the person in front ( or they forgot what their accelerator pedal is for)......... instead of leap frogging or being able to overtake all the vehicles in the line all of a sudden you have to overtake more vehicles and spend more time in a dangerous position....... and then you get someone in the line pulling out dawdling thinking they are the only road user.

Olcoolone
I talk to truckies on a UHF and cooperate with them – I have yet to get a bad response from them.
When I see them coming, I let them know I have my eye on them and that I will back off when they get out.

I have a good solid vehicle, a V8 Troopy and a modern caravan with electric brakes – both vehicles maintained at recommended intervals by professionals.
The stopping distance for my rig, at a guess, is about 4 times that of my wife’s Hyundai I30.
And according to Collyn Rivers a 100k limit for this rig is unsafe and I agree with him.

I know drivers like me are a pain in the butt to yourself and others.
But Grey Nomads, cyclists, farm implements and heavy slow trucks have a right to be there too.
It’s up to the overtaking vehicle to wait for safe stretch of road to pass.
Those drivers that are too impatient to do so are dangerous and shouldn’t be on the road.

Nomadic N,
You say I am not switched on then you tend to agree with me???
But I think you misunderstood my quote:
What I said was the Silverado system has TSC as well as ITBC...ie. the trailer brakes can be integrated into the ABS braking system so that you virtually have ABS brakes all around (on all 8 wheels if towing a tandem van).
I don't see how that can be achieved by an after market electric brake system. It is true the Alko system can be fitted but that just gives you TSC...it does not give you ITBC. What I said was the ITBC can't be achieved ...as far as I know.

On another point:
It has always amazed me that you can go into a showroom and buy a vehicle that can tow 3500kg...but you legally can't use that feature unless you fit an after market electric brake controller to the vehicle you just purchased. That is weird.

Cheers

Well said!

graham B9, I agree

As I said in another thread, I see many people towing vans at high speed and passing other vehicles, etc as if they didn't have an extra set of wheels and 2.5 tonnes or more behind them.

Just because the new breed of towing vehicles have a lot of power, doesn't mean it should be used injudiciously. As most of us know, the dynamics of a combination rig are quite different to a vehicle alone.

The difference with respect to stability when towing with, say, a vehicle with a wheel base of 4m - eg, a Land cruiser and one with 5m - eg, a F250 lwb - is marked. The latter sits on the road like it is on rail tracks even when a B-double passes in the other direction with a cross wind. The new Dodge 6.7 Cummins Ram, which I understand will soon be available in RHD in Oz, will be about the same price as a new dual cab Land Cruiser ute.

I suspect that many drivers would rarely, if ever, practice braking with the trailer brakes in various situations. I also believe that drivers (and the passenger in the front seat) need to be as familiar with using the brake controller as they are using the brake pedal.

Cheers
Andrew

"Member - Wamuranman posted:
Well said!"

Well said, except Graham indicates he has little knowledge of the American Market.

"The idea of towing a caravan with a Nissan patrol they would find laughable. They do not even try to sell it over there."

It's sold over there as the Infiniti QX They also build and sell a ute the sams size - Nissan Titan

They also build and sell the smaller size vehicles in the USA D40 series (2004-) and Pathfinder. They even use them as tow vehicles and sell WDH for them.

Hi Peter,

A Nissan Infinity QX is in fact quite a bit bigger than a Patrol. It actually looks quite a bit like it. It is very hard to tell the size of it without having another vehicle to compare it to. It is the same size as a Chev Suburban or Ford Expedition.

I have a suburban and in fact live in the US. I still look at Explore Oz however.

You are correct that Nissan do sell smaller vehicles such as Pathfinder but you almost never see them towing anything. Where I am the most common vehicle not just a SUV but of all vehciles is a Jeep.

In the winter you can get ploughed in by the snow clearing trucks at night and you need a bigger SUV / 4WD to get yourselves out in the morning.

The current Nissan Infiniti QX is about 150mm longer, 40mm wider and the same higher than a GU Patrol.

The Patrol was never allowed into the USA because of the Union ban stopping the import....... something about protection local manufacturing plants and employees.

Hi, graham B9
Do you mind if I ask a question thats a little related to this post, seeing you live in USA.
I wish to buy a new Silverado in USA at some stage (probably next year), drive around US in it then ship it back to Aus for RHD conversion. But, every Chev dealer I have contacted (and thats many) as well as some brokers...will not sell to me if they know it will be eventually exported. I find that weird...a sale is a sale afterall.
Do you know why they are not allowed to sell me a new car and is there anyway around it legally?
Any info/advice appreciated.
Rather than clog up this post you can email me on:
havilahheights@aapt.net.au

Thanks

PS I tried to find you on members list to use members message but to no avail.

I think if you tow anything over a 6x4 you should have another licence.

And I think the Police should pay attention to overloaded cars towing overloaded vans.

It's so much fun when we stay at caravan parks for short overnight stops watching caravaners trying to reverse.

This might annoy a few caravaners, and I have been one over the years, but I reckon that all rigs should be capably designed to sit safely on posted speed limits of 100 kph.

A full sized 4WD and a 3 tonne van in combination is a potentially lethal combination. Every rig has a critical speed, after which any sway starts to amplify rather than dampen itself out. That critical speed should be greater than 100 kph.

Yaw inertia should be stated by the manufacturer both for the empty van and at the AVM with load spread throughout the storage areas of the van. All van suspensions should be designed to eliminate bump steer. And why not an electronic load sensor on the draw bar to indicate hitch weight? And tyre pressures printed on the wheel arches? It's not a lot to ask. I also agree with J&R and Olcoolone that licensing is another matter that needs looking at.

If a rig is not stable at 100 kph, it should not be on the road.