New Licenses being discussed at federal level for 4x4 drivers

Submitted: Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 09:27
ThreadID: 10172 Views:1862 Replies:17 FollowUps:18
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Guys

I have been waiting all weekend for the explosion on this site.

On Friday I caught the tail end of news program on the ABC which indicated the Federal Gov,t was looking at a 4X4 license. It appears no one else who uses this site caught the article.

Unfortunately I missed who it was, but have a feeling it was the Federal Misnister for Transport.

I thought I might be able to find some reference to the news article by going to the Dept of Transport site, no luck.

But I did find this article.

Type in the link and you might get some surprises.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/mgraph/mgraph11/index.cfm

CheersPT
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Reply By: Member - Paul T- Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 09:54

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 09:54
Found it

This is the news article.

Last Update: Thursday, January 29, 2004. 11:43am (AEDT)
Minister to probe four-wheel-drive safety

" Federal Roads Minister Senator Ian Campbell says he will meet with manufacturers and importers to discuss the best way to educate motorists about driving four-wheel-drive vehicles.

All four-wheel-drive vehicles sold in Australia are tested to ensure they meet safety standards but there are concerns that rollover testing is not conclusive.

Senator Campbell says the industry must ensure consumers get detailed safety information when they buy a vehicle.

"Here's the challenge, what do we do to better advise people about the characteristics of some of these vehicles that do require more care," he said.

"I mean clearly there are things that you can do when your driving a four-wheel, things you should do when you're driving a four-wheel-drive that you may not have to do in a passenger car."

The Federal Government will also talk to the states and territories about the possibility of introducing a special licence for motorists who drive large four-wheel-drive vehicles.

Senator Ian Campbell says driving some four-wheel-drive vehicles is more difficult than driving a sedan.

"Some of the big four-wheel-drives they are more akin to driving a small truck than they are to driving a passenger car, so they're the sort of options you could look at," he said.

"But I think driver education and consumer information at the point of sale are things we can work on immediately with the cooperation of the states."

PT
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Reply By: Member - Bob - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 09:55

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 09:55
Very interesting monograph Paul. The thing that stood out for me was that 29% of drivers of 4WD vehicles involved in ftal crashes had a BAC of over 0.05%. As a group thats something we can and must address. (Don't crash and drink ;-)

I wouldn't be averse to 4WD licenses, just as I am not averse to gun licenses, heavy vehicle licenses, motor bike licenses or pilots licenses.Bob
AnswerID: 45026

Follow Up By: Brian - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:27

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:27
Licencing does not work (look at the rising road toll, The only reason for licences is to raise revnue!!!)
Education does(look at the drop in motorcycle rider Deaths since the compulsary training(in some States)!!!!!!!)

Brian
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Follow Up By: win - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 22:51

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 22:51
This is a wake up call to all Australians,Licencing:fishing,4wd?,power boat,gun,motor bike,motor car,and all other licening.The govt uses peoples deaths to introduce licencing another form justification or excuse to raise revnue.All the taxes( Licencing) raised from these,what really goes into eduction ,it should be 100% that is why they have licencing.People must rember how taxes came about? Kings and queens of long time ago,raised money for special occasions and used that occasion not take it and spend it somewhere-else.

wake up australia
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Follow Up By: Member - Bob - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 23:13

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 23:13
Brian,
last time I looked the road toll was falling. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good point though.
Interestingly, the education that you espouse for motor cyclists is enforced by licensing requirements- its not voluntary.Bob
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Reply By: Darian Powell - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:13

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:13
One thing pollies never do is risk the votes of a large community sector. We are such a sector - look at the sales figures and relax....any action re licences will be pretty 'soft' in effect, if anything at all......probably a fridge magnet and leaflet. In the meantime, I'll try to act responsibly while driving safely....are the other vehicle sectors doing the same ? And as for statistics......why not survey the incident resuts of the poor driving habits sector ? How many SUV's would figure in that ?Drag me away from this keyboard.
AnswerID: 45027

Follow Up By: Member - DickyBeach - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:08

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:08
Agreed we're a large community sector, but nowhere as large as Joe Public and it's them whom the pollies will be sucking up to so I'm not so sure we can relax on this issue.
One would hope that membership of an approved 4wd club AND certification by that club as having met their (approved) driving skills would suffice for whatever specialtesting the bureaucrats might devise.
As someone else on this site remarked on this subject , we're licensed to drive (ordinary) cars, boats, planes, bikes, trucks, pwc, guns, fishing, and gawd knows what else so why not grab some $s from 4wd as well - who knows, some improvement in OVERALL 4wd driving skills might not be a bad thing.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Tuesday, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:19

Tuesday, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:19
Be alert - not alarmed eh pal :-))))))))Moo... everyone knows what a Jackaroo looks like :-)
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Reply By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:14

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:14
Was an interesting read the Transport Saftey Article. I was interested to notice that their was only a small difference in the accident rate for cars and 4wds but motorcyclists had a huge rate of accidents. Fatalities per hundred kilometres travelled for cars 1.0/ 4wd 1.2 /motorbikes 13.6 The absolute number of motor cyclists killed in 1998 was 184 versus 191 for four wheel drives. And we subsidise them with our Accident premiums etc. But that is another story! So surely this is the area that we should address.

Also noted that 68% of four wheel drive accidents were on country roads compared to 51% for cars. Also noted that like Bob said, 29% of 4wd accidents compared with 21% for cars involved alcohol levels greater than .05% If this was lower to the same rate as cars, then the accident rates would be similar.

Rollover was 35% of fatal accidents for 4wd's compared to 13% for cars. This is an area that needs an engineering solution as I am sure more can be done to improve stability and decrease rollover. Laws requiring rollover improvements are likely I would think and with them there might be laws preventing lifting vehicles without engineering certificates as lifts generally increase rollover risk...Agh

I think that this article implies that 4wd's are not too much of a problem but that we should address alcohol and improve stability. Then their fatality rate might be lower than cars.

Of course, the other solution would be to ban the country folk driving to the pub for a drink after a days work in their four wheel drives. If they used cars for that purpose then both the alcohol rate, accident rate and rollover rate for four wheel drives would decrease and at the same time the car rates would increase. Then new laws would not be needed at all.

Cynical? Yes.

Andrew2001 Landcruiser 100S Turbo Diesel
"We do not stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"
AnswerID: 45028

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:16

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:16
Fatalities were per hundren MILLION kilometres travelled actually. Thankgoodness2001 Landcruiser 100S Turbo Diesel
"We do not stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen (Melb) - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:21

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:21
Just looking at the figures some more. If 4wd's were banned and we all drove cars in the city and less alcohol then the deaths of 4wders who were now in cars would fall from 191 per year to 159 per year. If motor cycles were banned and they all drove cars then deaths in that group would fall from 184 to 13. Now it seems to me there is more margin to decrease motorcycle deaths than 4wd deaths.
No wonder they are called Temporary Australians2001 Landcruiser 100S Turbo Diesel
"We do not stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"
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Follow Up By: goingplatinumcomau - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 14:54

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 14:54
Looks like .............Volvo ........ will do anything to get the Toorak market back.
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Reply By: Mad Dog Morgan (Geelong) - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:17

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:17
I would have thought some general public education of the dynamics of a 4x4 would have been in order years ago. I can't see a how a special license will do anything to influence the attitude of the sterotype jacked up hilux cowboy who give all 4bs a bad name. BEAM ME UP SCOTTY


Hooroo
Ray
AnswerID: 45029

Follow Up By: Diesel1 - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:18

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 12:18
I fully agree with you Ray - a special license wont have any effect on the attitudes of the idiots out there. Here in the Territory our road fatality rate is approx 36 per 100,000 people (the highest per capita rate in the country) compared to NSW at 9 per 100,000. A high percentage of these fatalities are due to 4wd rollovers, but there are so many factors involved that cause the accidents that I believe the authorities just heap everthing into 1 basket and the statisticians invariably release false stats.

I have yet to read or hear a news report relating to a fatal accident where there has been mention of the fact that the vehicle involved was jacked up to the max and wearing 44 inch swampers on the bitumen, but these are definitely contributing factors.

A special license has not stopped the irresponsible use of firearms across the country, nor will one change the attitudes of a lot of the idiots out there driving 4wds.

Diesel1
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Reply By: SteveW - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:25

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:25
So where do they stop? i cant see someone needing a 4x4 licence for a x-trail or crv or a little suzuki... or how about the new 4 wheel drive hsv coupe or Adventura? I think they should be spending their efforts taking the insanely irasponsible p-platers, that drive mummy's wrx or falcon or their 'hotted up' 'fully sik maate' lancers and pulsars off the road. they are the ones that are trying to break the land speed records on suburban roads. Leave the (genuine) 4x4 owners alone. Oh, and have they even had the tought 'how about we make the roads better??'

Its all just a cop out

Steve
AnswerID: 45030

Reply By: SteveW - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:35

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:35
Its revenue raising at its best! and you can bet your life all the money raised from the proposed licence aint gonna be going to make better roads. So would this mean that you have to have a licence to own a 4x4 or to drive one?? what happens if you have a few drinks and the mrs has to drive but she cant because she hasnt got a 4x4 licence...
AnswerID: 45033

Reply By: Member - Eric- Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:52

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 10:52
I dont have a problem with a 4x4 licence , what i have a problem with is been issued a licence and no were to go , Fishing licence , but you cant fish here and you cant fish there . Shooting licence , you can have one but you can only use a sling shot . There is only one person to blame , US . WE vote them , and WE sit back and get shafted .We all ike to windge , but we dont want to get off our asses and do something about it . ( I include myself in all this ) If they did something like this in the states there would be a outcryVenus Bay
AnswerID: 45034

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:28

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:28
"WE vote them"

But you have no choice.. You dont have one, dont vote get fined.. Vote and get shafted.

You can ONLY vote for Team A B or C.

Vote for anyone else, they give preferences to A B or C.

A B and C are there FOR THEMSELVES AND THE RICH...

So Voting is not the fixer up...
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Reply By: navaraman - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:22

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 11:22
I fully endorse some training being made a pre-requisite for owning a large 4WD, but a separate licence is overkill. Before my fourby I drove a Hiace and an Econovan both loded up with plumbing gear. With ladder and pipe racks on top they were probably akin to the so called instability of 4WD. Never heard anyone suggesting a special licence for driving that. You can also hire and drive fairly large trucks, motorhomes on a car licence. All motorists should drive within the capabilities of their own skills, the vehicles abilities and the road conditions, many do not, it is not the vehicles but the drivers that need to be addressed.
AnswerID: 45037

Reply By: Member - Anne - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 13:16

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 13:16
If a 4wd licence is to be enforced, then someone had better do something about the level of training available. I don't belong to a 4wd club, and don't want to, but I have been looking for 4wd training in South Australia, and there seems to be nothing which isn't industry based. So how do I learn? It is different driving a large 4wd to driving an ordinary sedan, and I would like to be good at it. If having a licence makes GOOD training available I'm all for it.
AnswerID: 45039

Follow Up By: Member - Des Lexik(SA) - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 23:10

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 23:10
Anne, There are numerous training venues out there that are generally run by 4WD clubs. The cost of such training is minimal and the trainers are accredited. I read where you don't want to belong to a club, but training is just one of the opportunities that are available as a club member. If you have had a less than satisfactory experience with a club, try others that may be more suited to your circumstances.Dare to Lead not to Follow
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Reply By: Bernie from Berns Beaks & Tradesman Trailers - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 15:58

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 15:58
most people out there in fantasy land don't even know where the 4 corners of there car are that is to say how far the corners are from where they are sitting so what hope do they majority of people have when it come to handling something as simple as a 4wd.
why do you need lessons?
go aout on the weekend away from anyone else find a quite spot and find out what YOU AND YOUR CAR CAN DO TOGETHER find your limit of skill on your own without a tinny or stubby and then when you believe that your knowledge of your car and your true self is complete go home and take the family for a SAFE TRIP
happy new year Berns Beaks & Tradesman Trailers
AnswerID: 45049

Reply By: sean - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 18:39

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 18:39
More rules ard regs - and for what?

Anyone who is one standard deviation from the norm in our great democracy is at the mercy of the mob.

Sean
AnswerID: 45067

Reply By: Member - Errol (York WA) - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 18:40

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 18:40
What about people coming in from overseas on holls , will thay also need to get a 4x4 license before thay can hire a 4x4 and then go out to the desart , get bogged and die , or go to Fraser and hoon around on the beach , rollover an kill them selves .Why go overseas when you can ExplorOz
ERROL
AnswerID: 45068

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:39

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:39
Very good point on the tourists...

More $$, they will have to do training! LOL...

once they see the tourist $ in jepordy, they will give them special exemptions.
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Reply By: Willem - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:10

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:10
It is venturing in to a mine field and I doubt if 4x4 licences will ever happen because there are such a variety of 4x4's and AWD's around.
Holden Cruz
Subaru
Holden Cross something
Suzuki
Pajero
Nissan/LC
Canter
Isuzu
Hino
Unimog
Mercedes Benz trucks

All 4x4's....

Its an impossibility to create a licence which will cover all aspects of 4x4 and the mining and pastoral industries will kick up against such a move. Even if such a law could be introduced it could not be made retrospective but would only apply to new licences. I wouldn't worry about it.............

Willem

Googs Lake camp
AnswerID: 45079

Follow Up By: Diesel1 - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:43

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 20:43
You're right on the ball there Willem - there's no way that Farmer Bob will accept such a stupid idea and the voter backlash will kill it before it is put into place.

Diesel1
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:30

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:30
Willem, its the same for the proposed 4wd levy they want to shaft us with....

It will be "selected" cars only...

But that depends on how many trillions they think they can make from it, think of it at $1000 per car for ALL 4wds including WRXs THE LOT, the greed pack will salivate for weeks.

It will happen...
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Follow Up By: Member - Eskimo - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 08:25

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 08:25
But if its fashionable and may win votes then it will happen.
Same as mandatory yearly vehicle inspections....

From the Horses Mouth (a respected senior manager in transport SA):

"they (the government advisors) know vehicle inspections will not address accident or death and injury rates enough to warrant the expenditure. How-ever.....if it appears that the voters back it, it will get up."

"The fact that it doesnt work is proven by data taken from various sources including NSW mandatory inspections and others such as NZ."

" why its brought to our attention in the media every so often.....is to test the voters."

Dont jump on me ..I am only quoting a senior Public Servant (as I recall it).Wow, am I cute! The extra long legs are built-in prevention against ducks disease. Great looks and a real goer. Doesnt waddle along like some.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 18:57

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 18:57
Truckster,

I can't see it happening despite your dire predictions. The logistics behind it would be too complicated. Everyone would have to have one and to get that you would have to participate an additional test. Most 4bies are owned by families and so all family members with a car licence would have to upgrade to a 4x4 licence. This licence would have to be in a new category as we are now allowed to drive a vehicle up 4.5 tons in weight on a car licence. That means we would then need an extra licence to drive a light truck.

As Eskimo points out there are failings within the annual vehicle inspection regimes. The NT is moving away from that for the reason that annual inspections do not work as the implementation is too complicated. South Australian RAA have taken note of the data presented by NT, NSW and NZ and has come up with other ideas including Random Vehicle Inspections. I wrote a letter to them(RAA) complaining about such a silly move and I believe my letter is going to be published in their next magazine. My gripe was that such a system would be open to abuse and that people driving older vehicles would be prime targets for such a system aand the abuse thereof.

Cheers,

WillemMove over Big Red..this is a dune!
320 metre sand dune, Sossusvlei,Namibia
(note myself and Suzuki in foreground)
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:12

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:12
Eskimo wouldnt jump on ya for that one, I believe it 100%...

Willem.
"Most 4bies are owned by families and so all family members with a car licence would have to upgrade to a 4x4 licence."

Think of it @ Few $100 per head, say $400 (std driver training from trainers?)... it adds up, it does not have to work, it has to APPEAR to work, or APPEAR as though they are doing something to appease the 2% of wanks that hate 4wds..

Its like saying speed cameras are for saving lives not money.. (Like the one that hides in the hospital carpark in Frankston, gets a good line down the roadworks[which are not happening at the moment they started and stopped] where its 40kph for about 400mtrs, 60 for 1klm, I dont think I have ever seen him without someone being booked... Saving lives? ) its GREED... nothin more, so if they can see more BILLIONS coming in, which it will, and the 2% that hate 4wds that are the loudest, so the Gov thinks its thousands more than us (VOTES), it will happen.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:24

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 22:24
Truckster........you need some fresh air...go on that trip to Cameron corner and relaxxxxxxxx.........Then when you return start a new website on greed and do your bit for society by speaking out at all these preceived dementors.

Move over Big Red..this is a dune!
320 metre sand dune, Sossusvlei,Namibia
(note myself and Suzuki in foreground)
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FollowupID: 307333

Reply By: tim - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 21:22

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 21:22
These programs drag these things out all the time from the archives, if it isn`t this it will be back onto bullbars again.
It will be another revenue raising thing as per usual, take your money and give you nothing in return.
AnswerID: 45094

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 23:01

Sunday, Feb 01, 2004 at 23:01
I people are dreaming.

They dont have to do things that make sense, they do things that SEEM to make sense...

Look at all the polls on the internet/TV/Papers.

We used to win them, now NOT ALWAYS in our favor anymore... so dont think we are "SUCH A LARGE" group that they will be scared of us... if we were so big we would win these polls....

It will happen.
AnswerID: 45115

Reply By: Mike - Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:42

Monday, Feb 02, 2004 at 00:42
I think it would be a great idea.
We could have three months intensive millitary driver training.
We could keep log books so that the authorities would always know we have been keeping our 4wdriver skills up to the mark.
We could have retesting every 3 years just in case the afforementioned fails.
We could have no time left to do the things we all enjoy doing.
We could get a pilots licence instead.

I don't thiiiiink so! What a lot of cobblers! Our freedoms are continually being whittled away. Why? Because the authorities do not have an answer for how they deal with hoons when they catch up ith them. The rest of us, the vast majority I might add, pay the penalty over time through the various restrictions that are being continually placed upon us. Complacency on the part of the majority will not solve the problems we face in this and many other circumstances such those previously pointed out fishing etc).

Well, that's it. I had my whinge.
Mike.
AnswerID: 45129

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