Lets Talk about Torque!, ...Have the japs had us on for years on end?
Submitted: Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 18:41
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Axle
I've noticed since my old motor bike days, that the Japs always had figues way above the poms and everyone else producing all types of machinery,of the same nature ..a triumph motor bike could carry a rider and his pillion passenger up
hill and down dale at a reasonable speed, only having to drop one gear with a four speed gearbox, the japs bring out a bike with half the engine capacity and claimed speeds and power of twice the amount, My experience was yes they could, but load it up and you where flat out getting away from the curb without using there 13000rpms.
Heavy Trucks, Ask a driver the difference between a C15 Cat and a jap truck of the same HP, No contest in slugging power!,
Farm tractors in the sixties, compare a 55hp david brown or Fergie on a rotary hoe, against a jap tractor of the same hp. definitley no contest, been there!, And now the 4bys,
Well there all been mostly jap powered for years and years and so everyone just grows with them ..lol.. Ireckon the old defender has more lug at idle than a lot of the same year toyos with a extra two pots ..So are these latest V8 jap diesels as good as what they could be or all the other jap motors in everything else??.. theres not much to compare really so everyone just thinks there marvellous!, They are good no doubt about it but could they be a lot better, are the engine performance specs Real??
And just for interest the Holden and Ford engine in the V8 super car catergory is dominant over the roughly same spec newly introduced Nissan and Mercs ,All about torque, ....I'll stop talking now...lol.
Cheers Axle.
Reply By: Rockape - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:08
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:08
Axle,
don't know about the Japs but I can remember driving a loaded 300hp F10 Volvo and being passed up
hill by a R model 237 Mack. He had the grunt but I had the air-con and comfort.
I don't know about Jap gear but Volvo in the early days sure needed a whopper stopper when it came to their claimed figures. I am not bagging the Volvos as they were very nice to drive all day.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:20
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:20
G/Day Ra, That 237hp Maxidine mack engine was something else !I had a R model Tipper for a while, Thats a engine that had fair dinkum torque.
Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Burnt Damper - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:22
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:22
If I can remember right a 237 maxidine had 903foot pound of torque a V10 Mercedes had 310hp and less torque. So your onto it. Where I work we have a 700hp Volvo and I reckon a good C15 Cat would keep it honest!
FollowupID:
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 23:02
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 23:02
european trucks were rated at the flywheel and yanky trucks rated at the drive wheels.
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Reply By: mikehzz - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:13
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:13
The Mitsubishi Outlander had the Peugeot 2.2 diesel in it in Europe. The motor put out 420nm torque. So Mitsubishi went to great expense and development time to completely develop their own new 2.2 diesel for it that only puts out 360nm torque. I reckon the Japs make crap diesels. You can drive all over Europe and barely see a Jap four wheel drive. It's because they can't sell low powered tractor like vehicles to people who are used to much better. They can't sell the petrol ones either because they use too much fuel. Having low power and torque with a short service cycle does increase reliability through less stress on components though, if you can stand driving them.
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Follow Up By: Member - gmax - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:23
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:23
reckon the japs make crap diesels... hahahah... yeah whatever...
i wonder how many of those older small peugot diesels are still alive and kicking ??cant imagine any would come close to 1HZ or
heaven forbid an ol 2H toyota 'boat anchor'
lets see if the fiat motor in the new colarado lasts as long as the isuzu donk Dmax? i would love to take yr money on that one...
yes you can keep your extra few nm of torque for your spreadsheet , i am happy to drive my old jap anchors, even if the spare parts cost an arm and a leg at least they have some runs on the board...
better still i would rather keep my nose out of a spec sheet and drive the vehicle in question, remember when towing , there really isnt a substitute for cubic inches if you are looking for reliabilty...
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:50
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:50
G/Day gmax, Both Peugot,& Fiat have been building Diesel Engines for 60 Plus yrs, Although i love isuzu engines as have had them in machines for years, i think the other two are up to the task as
well,
cheers Axle
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:49
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:49
You have Euro diesels in the taxis and courier vans doing a million kilometres plus. Plus they go like the clappers. The only things that Japs sell in Europe is frugal petrol cars. And so they should because they make a great petrol engine...no question about it.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:19
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:19
What are you talking about Axle - Torque is irrelevant by itself as its a single dimension quantity with no relationship to work done.
Power available over the usable rev range (area under such a plot) is what gets your bike up a
hill.
Load is irrelevant I.E. It will equally slow down a car with high torque low power engine just as much as a low torque engine that revs much harder to deliver the same power.
What can be relevant in your observation is the few seconds of stored energy or inertia in the rotating mass of your low reving high torque engine as shown by the curb
test.
The curb
test - let your car idle along next to a curb then suddenly flick your steering wheel left.
A diesel 4.2 Patrol will not stall but mount he curb.
A 4800 petrol patrol like my manual will usually stall as the wheel mounts the curb because of lower stored energy.
However the petrol 4800 will get to the end of a standing 1/
4 mile in time to boil the kettle before the diesel arrives.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:38
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:38
Not sure your right either Robin!..Lol...Your Talking about getting to a speed, Ok put your 4.8 against a load that nearly stalls it. and then leave it there all day how long will it last, Where as your 4.2 diesel will slug it out , and you could more than likeley increase the load without it stalling, my point is there has been less torque figs quoted for some engines that will do the same job up to a certain Speed as others quoted with higher specs.
Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:13
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:13
Hi Axle
I think your moving your discussion along to how long will it last and there is no doubt that a higher wear rate can occur at higher revs but in practise its not so bad because higher reving engines are usually developed to higher standards.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:34
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:34
Agree there robin,.. But i guess what i'm trying to say is lets have a non japanese manufacturer , build a motor exactley the same size and spec to a jap engine to suit a 4by and see what the difference is if any., Iknow in truck engines although reliability and smoothness is there a difference in pulling power is very noticeable.
cheers.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:28
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:28
if your only looking at peak torque/HP then as said its a one dimensional picture
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Reply By: Member - J&R - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:32
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:32
Where the British used 3 bolts, the Japanese used 23.
One reason you never had to grease a British car/bike or machine. Always enough oil bleep out from the crankcase seals, gaskets and breathers to cover everything that required a film of oil, plus a bit more for the road.
Give me comfort, reliability and, lets not forget affordability over a smelly
smokey oily gruntier device anyday...
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:45
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 19:45
Hahaha, True J&R with the british machines,But theres different makes out there.
Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:05
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:05
There are some of us who like to drive vehicles with a bit of character, even with idiosyncrasies, in preference to a "whitegoods" vehicle.
It makes one stand out from the maddening crowds even if it is by having to put oil in more frequently.
cheers,
Disco.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:14
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:14
Thats Right Disco!, ...Landrover Defenders a fine Example.
Axle.
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:28
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 20:28
I remember working on an old jag that had 24 bolts on the bellhousing to the engine, a nightmare with little room to swing a spanner, 3 would have been lovely!
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Follow Up By: Honky - Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:05
Sunday, Jun 02, 2013 at 21:05
Saw a Suzuki hyabusa go down the 1/4 drag strip and leave a black mark all the way.
Never saw a British bike do that.
Honky
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:27
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:27
honky-I did but the black mark was oil....
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Reply By: Member - KYLE S - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:11
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 01:11
I ASSUME A JAPS IS A MAKE OF MOTOR VEHICLE?
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 08:32
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 08:32
Mate it's a philosophy :-) Like Yank tanks, Euro diesels or Aussie big six Falcodores. 'Japs' equals tough and reliable anywhere it's mentioned. For me it also means ordinary looking, ordinary diesel but excellent petrol motors.
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Reply By: Smouch - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 09:07
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 09:07
Torque is torque. That standard of measurement is universally the same. Expressed in either Nm or ft-Lbs. Although what manufactuers states is a totally different thing.
When is comes to Horsepower or Kilowatts this is where is gets messy. There is SAE, DIN, JIS or PS. forms of measurement with variations on them and then different ways to express H.P- Nominal, Indicated, Brake, Shaft.
I think a lot of the difference, is manufactures just use to lie and even today still use a fudge factor.
The British use to over state there HP ratings and the Society of American Engineers (SAE) came out with the ingenious way of testing with every thing removed from the engine, no water pump, oil pump alternator, or even exhaust...... all the engine had to do was turn the crankshaft.
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 10:29
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 10:29
Gday Axle. We own 2 diesels:
VW Tiguan 2litre 103Kw @4200rpm; 320 Nm torque @ 1750-2500; 6 speed Aisan auto; Kerb weight 1650kg.
Landcruiser 200series TTD 191Kw @ 3400; 650Nm @ 1600-2600; 6-speed Toyota auto; Kerb Weight 2705kg.
The Tiguan absolutely kills the 200series - it takes off like a rocket and we get 7.4 l/100k out of it.
The Landcruiser feels like a big lump of lard until you crank it up - we get 12.8 l/100k under similar conditions. But one factor is the Landcruiser auto is poorly set up.
When it comes to performance, we agree the Europeans know all about it.
Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 15:16
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 15:16
Hi Phil
You must admit though the LC 200 have to pull more than 1 tonne extra, that is assuming you did not add a bullbar, extra tank, heavier
suspension or bigger wheels, where it would be closer to 1.5 tonne extra.
;-)
CJ
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Follow Up By: Axle - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 18:56
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 18:56
CseaJay,..If you notice the 200s Toyo has near double the torque, so if the figue is correct then one would think it would compensate for the extra weight,...What Phil is saying to get off the mark its a big Slug..lol...:))))).
Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 19:21
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 19:21
The 3 litre Vw Touareg diesel has similar torque to the Land Cruiser and similar weight yet it gets in the 8's for fuel economy and would beat the Tiguan over a quarter mile too.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 21:09
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 21:09
Just looked up the figures for the the Toureg 4.2L V8 TTD - sounds a lot like a Landcruiser already! But heres the numbers:
250Kw at 4000rpm; 800Nm at 1750-2750rpm; 8 speed auto; Tare weight 2264kgs. Same 3,500kg towing.
Makes me think I need to drive the wife's Tig down to Solitaires and ask for a drive of the Treg V8!
Bit of a lift,
snorkel, muddies - and then take it outback and call up VW Assist everytime the
check engine light comes on......Ok ....back to reality.... I'll stick with the Toyota!
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 23:20
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 23:20
I drove the TDV6 Touareg around Europe for a month and can't imagine why you would need a V8. It was one of the most impressive cars I have ever driven. Also had the lift built in, press a button and it went up about 75mm. No low range though due to the auto box just like the ute I think. Talk about power and whisper quiet....no
snorkel for it though, you'd have to build your own from some dunny pipe. :-) I didn't get to see the engine light, I think you have to be somewhere remote before it activates.
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Reply By: Honky - Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 13:53
Monday, Jun 03, 2013 at 13:53
Now you are getting into power to weight ratio which I use when looking at a car/motorbike.
Honky
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