Who's responsible for signposting in the Nth of SA?

Submitted: Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 16:53
ThreadID: 103091 Views:2329 Replies:10 FollowUps:40
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Talking one one seriously misleading job: heading W from Cameron Cnr to the new Strez Tk you get to an intersection.

What you find is one post pointing to Innamincka to the Nth and one to Lyndhurst.

So you head Nth but find yourself on the old Strez. Should take the Lyndhurst track to get to the new Strez and then head Nth.

We fell into that trap last year and while the Old Strez. was a fillup to the heart rate (wet, lots of diversions) we weren't confident we had the fuel. But made it.

Talking to a few arrivals at Inna this year, they'd also been misdirected.

Not good enough SA.
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Reply By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 18:51

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 18:51
Not sure what type of vehicle your driving, But I always make a point of 'filling up' at every opportunity (within reason). Had you done so at Cameron Corner or at Least Tibooburra (if you came that way), then the fuel issue would not be a problem and you would have felt a lot more comfortable and had a more enjoyable trip. I dont think you should be totally reliant on 'Sign Posts' in remote areas.

Jeff
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:38

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:38
Last time we went through Cameron Corner they had no diesel & wouldn't have for 2 days.
I put 83 litres in an 80 litre tank at Innamincka, never driven so far with the fuel light on!

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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:05

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:05
Within reason we fill up on a regular basis. Never let the fuel level go any further thasn 1/2 one tank and empty on the other. Not unless we are damned sure there is fuel "just up the road" as planned. No exact formula.

And as far as signposts are concerned we use the map as a guide and let the signposts confirm our "suspicions". Learnt a long time back that there are fools around who like to "play games".

Phil
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:09

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:09
100% agree

Nothing worse than worrying about your fuel and not relaxing and taking in the atmosphere

I always have a paper map AND a Hema Navigator as some signs are indeed souveniered or tampered with (some people have a wierd sense of humour)

cheers
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:34

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:34
I have a policy of never driving past diesel pump in the Outback.
As well as peace of mind, you get to meet interesting people.

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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:49

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:49
I always fill up as soon as I see the pump and not leave it til the morning, did this at Innaminka once and then the next morning the fuel pumps stopped working - we had a full tank so breazed by listening to the owner going off at the people who kept trying the pumps.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:10

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:10
Shaker and Cookie I know what you mean and if you only have small tanks fair enough. But what if you just filled up in Marla and would you then fill up again Chandler? Thats only 44Kms and it's just another 130 kms further on to Kulgera. Maybe not.

I can see a case for it if heading north from Oodnadatta to the Simpson via Finke then Chambers Pillar to Mt Dare.

It's a personal judgement but I wouldn't fill up at Finke as we carry 255 litres. And if Mt Dare didn't have fuel then we would still make it through the Simpson.

Good idea Cookie. A bunch of twenty cars may roll up after dinner and empty the tanks as well. First thing we do is fill up.

Phil
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:17

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:17
You're a wicked man Phil :)

"But what if you just filled up in Marla and would you then fill up again Chandler? Thats only 44Kms and it's just another 130 kms further on to Kulgera. Maybe not."

I think we were both on your wavelength of <1/2 a tank but I also keep a record of fuel usage at each and every fill so I know roughly how much range I have in my tanks

cheers

PS Phil are you going to the Earth gathering in Vic?
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:39

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:39
I doubt it mate. Crowds send me around the bend. This is not the place to say why. Sorry. Might be nice to share a yarn and a cuppa though one day.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:49

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:49
I don't really think of bitumen roads as being remote Outback.
I have one vehicle that holds 180 litres, the other takes 335 litres & the Crossover holds 80 litres. I probably don't need to stop, but then I'm not in a hurry & I am sure that every bit helps these remote businesses to stay in business for our convenience.

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Reply By: Sigmund - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:16

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:16
As it happened, fuel was a minor issue.

The point of this post lies in the first 3 sentences.

We weren't the first to be misled by poor signposting and clearly haven't been the last.
AnswerID: 514279

Follow Up By: Member - john y - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:34

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:34
I think those that replied to your post have missed the point you made.We have recently returned from a trip through S.A. and found the signage poor especially in the Eyre Peninsula.Town names would appear on the highway signposts,but then no further was mentioned again as you progressed leaving you to query if you were still on the right track then to reappear later
I will go anywhere as long as it's forward

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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:41

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:41
Yes john y.

To those focusing on the nav. note that we had a GPS, paper map, compass and got some advice from some motorbike riders coming the other way (on the old Strez!; they didn't know where they were either).

Like a lot of 'tracks' out there, that section of the old Strez was wide and well maintained. Maybe 20 kms down it I realised we weren't coming to Merty Merty so we must've passed it. Decided to push on.

Have been deceived by 'wide and well maintained' another time in SA: you might as well assume it's a bore or mine track if there's no signpost or an ambiguous one.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:59

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:59
Hi Sigmund,

"that section of the old Strez was wide and well maintained."

that section has been closed for quite some time and recently opened so would say that the Road crews have been doing their best to keep it maintained, I think Moomba uses that road as when we went down it there were several oil / gas fields just off the track.

cheers
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Reply By: Crackles - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:55

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 19:55
Rookie mistake relying solely on sign posts in the outback. So often they can be misunderstood or missing all together so a secondary method to confirm location should always be used like measuring KM from the last known point for example. With moving map GPS these days (accurate to a few metres) I find it almost impossible to get side tracked off a main route ever.
Also no route should be taken as a given and additional fuel carried to either enable back tracking to where you've come from or detour to the next town (in your case the 200km's south to Lyndhurst).
Personally if they took all the signs down it wouldn't bother me at all.
Who's responsible for navigating in the outback? You Are!
Cheers Craig............
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:14

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:14
Shoot!

Read the whole thread please.

Can no one answer the question posed in the thread heading?

Or do folk just want the chance to thump their chests while putting down others?
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:34

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:34
I think I can see ya problem Sigmund.Your just not as clever as Crackles.
David
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:38

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 20:38
Hi Sigmund
OK Department of Transport and local councils is responsible for signage - OK answered

Mate don't take a lot of this to heart, most people on here - most not all, will try to help and give you some pearls of wisdom either from the school of hard knocks (been there and made that mistake) or have that knowledge through sites like this or from books.

"putting down others" - "Not good enough SA." I would suggest that this is a little prevocative and probably why you got some of the answers you received.

You know we got geographically challenged once in Queensland as they had created a NEW road with the same name as the old one (we discovered this later) a little further down the original road we were on. We got through it with the aid of a paper map and the Hema Navigator ( one of the early ones that failed later in the trip and so we had to revert to the paper maps and go a long way around to be sure we didn't get lost.

As I said before, don't take this to heart it is mostly all well meaning

cheers

Cookie
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:09

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:09
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
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Follow Up By: Member - VickiW - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:14

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:14
I would recommend carrying decent maps (regardless of navigator) and never relying on sign posts alone. I seem to manage despite being a poor lone helpless woman.
Reliance on signposts anywhere remotely remote, or unfamiliar, is not a safe approach. Always check kilometerage (love that word) against maps.

Personally I think we would be losing something if we didn't need to keep these common sense, self reliant safety measures.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:28

Thursday, Jul 04, 2013 at 21:28
"Member - VickiW posted:
I would recommend carrying decent maps (regardless of navigator) and never relying on sign posts alone. I seem to manage despite being a poor lone helpless woman.
Reliance on signposts anywhere remotely remote, or unfamiliar, is not a safe approach. Always check kilometerage (love that word) against maps.

Personally I think we would be losing something if we didn't need to keep these common sense, self reliant safety measures."

VickiW, you sound like anything but a poor lone helpless woman

you're advice is very true and does require reinforcement to many a seasoned traveller

cheers
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 08:48

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 08:48
Phew Vicki

Glad someone else thinks like me.

I’, a map reader from way back. Map, compass, and know what to expect, see, and you should never get off track.

Cheers, The Landy
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:56

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:56
Love city tourists who think everything should be signposted actually.

Rule 101 of outback travelling, carry good navigation gear, carry extra fuel, carry extra water, carry extra food, carry good usable outback comms and research the area you're travelling in.

You can see how so many get into trouble.

What no 24hr servo's and what about McDonalds.... where am I going to eat.

We live in Adelaide and it's not a hard city to navigate around in..... surprising how many people we see using GPS to get to the next suburb....... maybe natural instinct is fast becoming extinct.
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:52

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:52
None of those qualifications apply to my experience and concern as posted here.

Can you not be more helpful? Less mocking? Or would that take too much effort to read stuff?

(We were to add equipped to camp by the track for several days if needed and had a satphone in case of life-threatening emergency).
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 07:49

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 07:49
Sigmund I think that what people are trying to say is that you cannot rely on signposting in remote areas. You should always keep track of distance travelled since the last intersection and note it down so that when an indicated intersection does or doesn't appear you can check with your map and travelled distance to ensure you are in the correct place.
This is especially prudent when travelling off formed roads where the grader driver may take a slightly different route to avoid boggy patches or washaways.
Signage in the outback has a hard life and can easily be knocked down by termites, cattle or camels as well as the occasional drunken sod with weird sense of humour.
Peter
1996 Oka Motorhome

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Reply By: Member - Michael O (NSW) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 07:06

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 07:06
Travelling out that way, it always seemed to me that (in answer to the question...) most of the signs were done by the sorely missed Adam Plate. RIP
Monday I have Friday on my mind...
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 08:57

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 08:57
That's what I was thinking too Michael! Without Adam's signs, there wouldn't be much signage up there at all!

I have to agree with the OP, I've always thought that the tourism dept here in SA is far too easily satisfied with their own performance.

They do a great job of promoting KI, but IMO that's where it stops for them.

We have travelled quite extensively over a very long time & have always thought that all the other states/territories cater far better for travellers. Especially NT, WA & Tas.

The Gawler Ranges are another area in SA where signage is almost non existent.

Cheers,

Kevin.
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 11:57

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 11:57
Don't think these were Adam's. Normally they're pink discs aren't they? These are proper posts with black destinations marked on wood board arrows.

I'll follow this up as others we've learned have been caught out in the same way. If the old Strez was 4WD only due to rain, folk in std vehicles would run into problems, both practical and legal.

Apologies for venting in the last post.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:59

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:59
Adam made a lot of signs for the Oodnadatta Track and immediate surrounds, don't think he went the other side of Marree

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 13:33

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 13:33
I think that you are correct Cookie. Sigmund is talking about the other side of Lake Eyre up around Innamincka, Camerons and lyndhurst.

Funny but I can not recall being misled by signposts. I, together with others, seem to still have the ability to be able to read a map. If someone is after the "new" Strezleckie Track to get to Innamincka why on earth didn't they see that the one leading north from Merty Merty is NOT the Sterz. Both are on my maps and in the VMS/Ozi unit. Thats a difference of 10Kms!!

Sorry Sigmund. I know what you are talking about with the signage but please use the maps, hard copy or digital is irrelevant, GPS and signage in that order.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:17

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:17
If you'd read my posts PJR you'll have seen that I had a map and GPS.

In my own defence allow me to say that the map was a HEMA state-wide job and the scale was really too small to have helped just at the intersection.

The missus enjoyed the diversion so much (not!) that she gave me a HEMA navigator for Xmas last year.

We used that, along with paper maps, on this year's trip.

That's really a great unit.
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Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:20

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:20
Lets be a bit contsructive here. I do not know what you mean by the "GPS" that you used.

That aside when we go bush, we learn by either making mistakes or doing map reading courses or listening to Dad, Grandpa or mates that you do not rely on street signs. Or we just read books and watch movies or study an area. We are all different.

I believe that you fell into the large group that sometimes get nicknamed as "Turn around (insert name here)" and so on. Don't get upset because that is a big group. But they, like you, learn and do better next time.

Good to see that your wife has insisted on purchasing the Hema. Hopefully it is one that shows the map and identifys your position on it with such programs as Movin mao, Oziexplorer etc. Not a street by street one.

There is an evil little bloke running around who loves to turn signs around, burn them down or just deface then so that they are unreadable. He will never get caught so just be aware that signs can be wrong and that fact will never be outdated.

Use the best detailed map and your Hema and a prior knopwledge of the new area that you are going to pass through or visit and you should be right.

Phil
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:34

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:34
Hey Sig,

Love your thinking, get lost with the misses and end up with a new Hema Navigator for Christmas...

Note to self, I need a new GPS, so plan to get lost with the missus!

Tongue firmly planted in cheek :)

Cheer's Baz
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Reply By: The Landy - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 10:23

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 10:23
Whilst acknowledging the original question, which I can’t answer, I couldn’t help but feel isn’t that one of the great things about exploring, getting lost? (Tongue-in-cheek as I write)...

I think there is often confusion around the road names. Technically there is only one Strzelecki Track and that is the one that runs north from Merty Merty into Innamincka, and usually a great drive.

The other is the Moomba Road, which is often referred to as the “new” Strzelecki Track which goes past the Moomba Gas field...

But I’ll stand corrected – if I’ve got this wrong.

Cheers, The Landy
AnswerID: 514316

Follow Up By: Sigmund - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:13

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 12:13
That sounds right to me Landy.

We just came back from Inna on the new 'track' heading for CC and Tiboorburra and did a forensic analysis (!) of where we went wrong the previous time.

Yeah, that time provided a tale to share with friends and useful info on how the Forester and camper trailer suck up juice in different conditions.

Amazingly we did Arkaroola to Mt Hopeless on the new Strez and then to Inna on one tank. 3l left in it. (And we carried a jerry of fuel expecting worse).
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:22

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:22
Baz,

The Natmap 250K maps call the New Strz as "Strzelecki Track" and the track going north from Merty Merty as the "Old Stezelecki Track". We were out that way a couple of years ago and our track from that trip shows that we went a very short distance up the old track - I dont recall now whether we took a wrong turn or were simply looking around.

But I do recall our first ever outback trip, in the days before Gps's. We drove north through Bollards Lagoon and then found ourselves in the maze of oilfield tracks up there. Despite following our map as best we could, we became quite lost, but were using signposts - until we came to a track junction with no signpost at all. Freaky moment! We eventually got to Innaminka via a very minor track, having notched up some unexpected experience in sanddune driving.

We have on occasions come across signposts that are quite wrong, most recently in outback Qld where a sign had simply been rotated through 180 degrees. Its always good to have Ozi running on such occasions, but paper maps and the ability to read them are an essential backup for outback travellers.

Unfortunately, from recent comments on here, I suspect that too many people are now venturing into remote areas with inadequate maps or mapping ability.

Cheers,

Val.
J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:28

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:28
A bit OT but

we had a distress call a while ago and the caller gave us his coordinates from his GPS, they weren't quite right and it placed him about 100km from where he was

fortunately someone else found and rescued him

cheers
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:54

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:54
I don't think its OT really, it just helps build a bigger picture of what can & does sometimes happen out there. Was his GPS out cookie, or did he misread it? Glad it ended well :=)

You're right about Adam's signs mate, my point is that Tourism SA do very little up there & without Adam's efforts there wouldn't be a lot of signage/tourist info anywhere in outback SA north of Lyndhurst.

Cheers,

Kevin.

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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:58

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 14:58
"Was his GPS out cookie, or did he misread it"

Not really sure,
I would suggest that either he didn't read it out well or my colleague wrote it down incorrectly (don't think so but).

I know some people do have a play with their units and in so doing may reset it incorrectly

cheers
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:05

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:05
"But I do recall our first ever outback trip, in the days before Gps's. We drove north through Bollards Lagoon and then found ourselves in the maze of oilfield tracks up there. Despite following our map as best we could, we became quite lost, but were using signposts - until we came to a track junction with no signpost at all. Freaky moment! We eventually got to Innaminka via a very minor track, having notched up some unexpected experience in sanddune driving."

I was based at Jackson in the late '80's travelling all over those oil fields putting up beam pumps (I was a contractor, not a Smurf); you're not alone, even guys who had worked up there for years used to get lost in those oil fields! All it takes is a previously drilled well head to have a pump put over it & a new road springs up from nowhere & it won't be on any map for a while lol! Then there's the bulldozers savaging the bush in long straight lines to put shot lines in for exploration, they look for the world like a long straight road, but they're not.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:30

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:30
Val

Must say, I'm a map reader going back to my early flying days, and bush-walking. And must say it has held me in good stead, I used a map and compass to walk across Bonar Glacier in New Zealand earlier this year, after we experienced deteriorating conditions heading towards a "white-out" whilst climbing in the Southern Alps.

We actually prepped it before leaving the hut, just in case we experienced the conditions we found.

On GPS, I underwent specific training in their use and limitations and I would have to say one of the most common errors is data incorrectly input, and no cross-reference to ensure you are actually heading the way you want to. It should be an aid to assist in navigation.

On the Strez, if you come out from Innamincka past the water-holes and town common you just keep following it, no turns and eventually you get to Merty Merty (from memory!)

I've never been up through Bollard's Lagoon, but from what I hear there are tracks everywhere, and a bit of a challenge.

Love that area, and in fact working towards getting up there in September.

Mind you, getting a little off topic now, but I come back to the early explorers', most simply relied on sextant and compass, no maps that could be relied upon, and "technically" they were probably lost most of the time - how good was that!

Cheers, Baz

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Reply By: Sigmund - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:09

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 15:09
My last comment as OPer.

Authorities who put up and maintain signs have a duty of care to ensure they're informative.

IMO at the Merty Merty intersection naming Inna as North without stating the track is the Old Strez. fails that duty. A failure almost on par with that if the Bore Tk near CC was just signposted as Inna to the North.

Agree that signposts need to be interpreted. As do maps (which are just selections of features represented in symbols) and GPS data. If folk don't get the map datum right or can't read coords they might as well leave GPSs at home.
AnswerID: 514338

Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 16:14

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 16:14
Ahhh That sounds different. Look after your self mate. No one is going to lead you by the hand. They will get around to the signs when they can It's not a tiny little city council area.

I hate that phrase "Duty of Care". I look after my wife and myself and don't expect you or anyone else here to do it for me. If I take the wrong turn then it's my fault. Not yours! Neither is it the fault of an engineer hundreds of kilometers away.

Next you will want a paddle pop man at every intersection to help you.

You are showing another side that was not obvious before.

Study the area and get the right maps and navigation aids next time.

And here I was feeling for you being misunderstood and attacked by all and sundry.

Phil
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 17:18

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 17:18
Gday Sigmund,

Taking a turn that ends up being a short cut can't be all that bad! I reckon you saved about 40km! But the signposts were correct and you took the road that I like to take to Innamincka - the Old Strez is a lot more interesting than the Moomba road.

Cheers
Phil
AnswerID: 514346

Follow Up By: Member - Bruce and Di T (SA) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 22:01

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 22:01
Like you Phil, it's the best route to Innamincka, more interesting and shorter. And the signage is correct. It leads to Innamincka, in fact it joins the 'new' Strzelecki before Innamincka.

Di
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 23:01

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 23:01
Hi Di,
Took a couple of South Aussies to point out that there was actually nothing wrong with the signpost that has attracted over 40 responses!!!
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Reply By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 18:25

Friday, Jul 05, 2013 at 18:25
Not only in SA , signage is often wrong or confusing in QLD and every other state as well , reason being that we are all so inundated with signage every where that we come to rely on it instead of our inbuilt sense of direction .
AnswerID: 514351

Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:22

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:22
And in a big city isn't it confusing. And then the copper says "Didn't you see the sign". Aaaagh

Phil
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Reply By: Lyn W3 - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 07:59

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 07:59
Well this thread went a bit pear shaped for the OP, bit like the "stupid" thread on The Simpson recently.
AnswerID: 514367

Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:27

Saturday, Jul 06, 2013 at 08:27
I would love to PM you but there isn't an option. There is a recent update on damage to that place on the SA site somewhere.

Lyn. Drifts OT will always happen because we cannot be precise in what we write and then understand from written word. I am just as bad. As you no doubt have noticed and have commented upon very politely. I took this one as if he was complaining about getting lost. You are also ever so subtle mate.

Phil.
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