Winches #2

Submitted: Sunday, Feb 08, 2004 at 23:29

ThreadID: 10376 Views:2319 Replies:5 FollowUps:9

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Member - Ross

Ok , Ok .............. you lot have convinced me ......... happy now?? ...... ;-)

Any way my question relates to which of the 2 batteries to connect it to.

The mob I'm getting it from have advised me I need one of those flash battery management gizmos. The main reason being to protect the black box from spikes, apart from its obvious job. Apparently later model vehicles are all more prone to this problem.

Anyway they also recommend hooking the winch to the primary battery due to the fact it's the first in line for re-charge and if you take out more than you need to start the beast you can rely on the aux for that job.

All very well and good .... but what if the aux is down somewhat due to lights, fridges etc the previous evening and hasn't had time to be recharged.

Your thoughts and comments please ...........

CheersFidei defensor

Rosco

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Reply By: Dave from Fraser Coast 4WD Club - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 07:39

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 07:39

how about a management system that allows you to join both batteries.

Like the TJM IBS

AnswerID: 45941

Follow Up By: Member - Ross - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 08:29

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 08:29

Dave

I believe that type is what they intend, it is automatic with a manual overide button. I've forgotten the brand as we only discussed it briefly, but I recall he said it was the latest and greatest, possible Swiss made?

In any event both batteries hooked up in parallel is the go but I'd be hesitant to winch from both for fear of draining both below starting level.

Obviously my knowledge of this issue is somewhat limited.Fidei defensor

Rosco

FollowupID: 307907

Follow Up By: Mark - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 14:52

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 14:52

I have looked at the TJM IBS system and while the "control" unit is great, it only operates a normal solenoid for isolation, and one that was not surge protected at that (as inspected at TJM Osborne Park).

So while the electronic brain seems to have all the bells and whistles (independent voltage monitoring for both batts, overide button, neat looking unit for dash etc...) it is really only a solenoid with fancy controls.

If you are going to spend those $$$ ($450 from memory plus battery cables), I believe a Rotronics charge/isloator will give far superior performance. Or use a redarc isolator (same as ARB smart solenoid but 1/2 the price - about $99).

Cheers

Mark

FollowupID: 307938

Follow Up By: Dennis (Brisbane) - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 21:27

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 21:27

Ross,

You keep (if you can of course) the motor running while you winch.

They do have a massive drain on your battery/s, esp on a long recovery.

With my single battery setup (a very BIG high CCA truck battery), even with the motor running (the majority of it at idle), on a very steep 15 metre double pull up a shale hillside (HAD to get to the top lol) my voltmeter was down below 10.

FollowupID: 307997

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:00

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:00

AGain peace of mind, dual batteries are the go.

Run something like an Exide Extreme for second battery and winch off the main, that gives you good backup.. Winching can use more than its share, and your car maynot start later. I suffered that with single battery... :(

AnswerID: 45948

Reply By: Roachie - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:31

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:31

I Have a distrust of anything electronic where it could affect life and death (eg: being able to reliably start my truck in the boonies). I don't mind accepting the fact that the CD player has some sort of computer whiz bangery....but my truck does not have a "black box" (it's a 2000 4.2T/D Patrol and I bought it BECAUSE it is low tech) and my dual battery system utilises a simple solenoid which I have wired via the windscreen wiper power supply BUT have also placed a manual override switch on. I have a VOLTMETER in my dashpod which I can switch from one battery to the other to see what the output is of either/both at any time.
My winch is connected to my main/starter battery. My Aux battery is an Exide Extreme. On the occasions I have had to winch myself or others out of trouble I have always had the motor running with the hand throttle set at around 1200 revs. Bear in mind you've got to be in real big shiate to be needing to winch continuously for mre than say 5 minutes at a time and given that your motor will/should be running all the time, it should not be any issue for you to have to start your truck after the winching is completed. Just make sure that once you've finished winching, leave the motor running to ensure the batteries are being re-charged. I have heard of a bloke getting out of a bog with his winch, then being so happy to be okay, he decided to switch off the truck to have a cuppa (or grog) and then couldn't re-start the truck later.
Cheers,
Roachie

AnswerID: 45954

Follow Up By: Roachie - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:01

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:01

On re-reading my own post, I realise I may have given a wrong impression about my dual battery isolation system.
The 2nd battery is definitely isolated when the motor is switched off....if the wipers won't work; then the batteries are isolated. Where my manual over-ride comes in to play is when I start the truck up and have it running. By having a simply on/off switch in the circuit, I can choose to start the truck on the starter battery (or both if I want to) and then run the motor till it warms up and charges the main battery (checking on the voltmeter). Once I'm satisfied the main is adequately charged (voltmeter shows almost 14 volts), I switch on the solenoid over-ride and the 2nd battery comes on-line to be charged.
The benefits of this are
(1) I don't run the risk of having a dodgy main battery which still seems to be starting the truck okay, but is actually relying on the 2nd battery;
(2) On a really cold morning (say in the high country) the diesel often needs a bit more persuassion to kick into life, so I can use both batteries
(3) I don't run the risk of the batteries equalising when I turn the ignition on (unless I want them to equalise), which can be important if I've been running the 2nd battery down using fridge, lights etc.
By the way, I changed over from a Engel 39 litre to ARB 40 liter fridge last year. One of the snazzy features of this newer model is that you can have both 240v and 12v plugs stuck in the fridge at the same time. I have wired in a 240v power cord with a caravan type inlet plug on my bullbar (it was a convenient hole being the "W" shape cut-out where the winch control box had been meant to mount....but that's another story). Now at night, when I get home, I plug the mains into the bullbar and run the fridge off that. I also installed a battery charger in the back and that' connected to the 240v as well, with a male cigi plug going into a spare outlet so I'm charging the 2nd battery at night as well. It's only a trickle charge, so no problem with the battery boiling.
Cheers,
Roachie

FollowupID: 307919

Follow Up By: Member - Ross - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 13:24

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 13:24

Roachie

Obviously correct about leaving the engine running ... may as well grab 100 A or so from the alternator, rather than all from the battery.

Only problem is the black box again, much less than 12 V and the bloody things won't run. Had that problem with my '96 Disco.

Maybe you're on the right track with your low tech job.

CheersFidei defensor

Rosco

FollowupID: 307931

Reply By: Mark - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 13:40

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 13:40

I run a dual battery stetup with the winch on my AUX battery. The aux battery is isolated by a redarc auto solenoid (on 13.5V, off 12.5V) with spike protection. This isolator is the same as the ARB smart solenoid, at less than half the price!. The aux battery is a Century Severe Service Farm/Truck battery that is rated for starting and cycling applications.

The reason I run the winch directly off the aux battery is that I always want to protect my starting battery. But i have wired the aux battery to be charged directly from the alternator. This allows the alternator to "fast charge" the aux battery, but only after the main battery is fully charged.

The downside of this type of installation is;
1) during actual winching, the aux battery is isolated (voltage <12.5) so the alternator does not assist in running the winch.
2) the original vehicle wiring from the alternator to the main battery is typically not rated high enough to enable full starting current from the aux battery back to the main battery (say in the event of a flat main battery).

I do not regard 1) as a major issue as if the aux battery starts to become flattened I simply stop winching (lets winch cool down) and let the alternator top aux battery up (remember, the main is fully charged and the aux now recieves full alternator charge). In practise, the aux battery lasts longer than the winch getting too hot.

If you need to "jump start" a flat main battery, all you need a single jumper lead (suitably surge protected) from aux battery to main battery.

It is possible to enable a high amp link between the two batteries, but I actually want to avoid this (have seen solenoid bypass's accidently left on). If everything does go arse up, I can simply use a jumper lead to connect both batteries or physically swap the batteries around.

The main advantage of this system is isolating the starting battery from the winch, but being able to fast charge the aux battery. There are other ways of accomplishing this (rotronics charge/isolator) but the $$$ are simply too much for what you get IMHO.

Cheers

Mark

AnswerID: 45978

Follow Up By: Leroy - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 14:16

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 14:16

'It is possible to enable a high amp link between the two batteries, but I actually want to avoid this (have seen solenoid bypass's accidently left on). If everything does go arse up, I can simply use a jumper lead to connect both batteries or physically swap the batteries around.
'

Check out the EMERGENCY OVERRIDE METHOD RECOMMENDED FOR STARTING WHEN MAIN START BATTERY IS FLAT in the Redarc FAQ. You earth a terminal on the Redarc and it enages the solenoind to you can start your car off your second batt. in effect a jump start.

Leroy

FollowupID: 307932

Follow Up By: Mark - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 15:07

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 15:07

Hi Leroy, the way I have wired it up means the aux bat is connected only to the alternator. The original factory alternator wire to the main bat is then the only thing connecting the main to aux battery. This wire is only good for say 100 amps (typical alternator max charge) not the 400+ amps required for my diesel.

A "normal" isolation wires the aux battery directly to the main battery using starter size cables with the solenoid. The earthing of the solenoid terminal in this case gives you the jump start as per the Redarc FAQ. All charging to the aux battery is via the original alternator wire to the main battery (usually relatively small) then to the aux battery.

I could wire it differently, but have chosen not to for the reasons in my original post. I have fused the aux recharge line to 100 amps to specifically protect this factory wire.

Not all would agree with my method of isolation, but IMHO it provides me with more advantages than disadvantages for my situation. Ideally the rotronics isolator is the best way to go, but simply not cost effective for the extra advatages.

Cheers

Mark

FollowupID: 307939

Reply By: Willem - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 18:58

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 18:58

Life is complicated......ain't it Rosco..........just when I thought your square faced beast was of the old school you come and tell me it has a black box!! I think that I will stick to my old truck...far les complications. Oh Yes....I winch off my Aux Battery which is a Yuasa Overlander 17 plater.......don't have to worry about spikes as there is nothing to spike..hahahahaha

Cheers,

Willem
Out on the Gibber

AnswerID: 46038

Follow Up By: Member - Ross - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 22:12

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 22:12

Hey Willie

When you refer to my square faced beast I can only assume ya mean the truck....she would be beside herself..;-)

Not only does it have a black box but it's "drive by wire" tech......reminds me of my days as a youngster with model aeroplanes ... somehow I don't think it's quite the same tho.

Ah well .... all this modern stuff. We'd all be better off with button up boots, timber spokes and steel rims ........... right??

;-D

CheersFidei defensor

Rosco

FollowupID: 308007

Follow Up By: Member - Ross - Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 22:14

Monday, Feb 09, 2004 at 22:14

P.S.

At least they give you a 1300 No. for road side assist to use with your sat ph when the bloody things refuse to proceed in a forward direction.Fidei defensor

Rosco

FollowupID: 308008