Anyone using two stroke oil in the new common rail diesel motors.

Submitted: Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:39
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Hi All,
I used to use two stroke oil in the ratio of 200:1 as added lubrication in the diesel fuel used in my 1999 Hilux with no problems. Now I have a new D Max I am not sure about using it with the high pressure common rail injection. When I read in a previous post about a 100 series pump failing at just over 100,000 K , I am thinking that perhaps I should. Any thoughts on the subject?
Regards
Scooby
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Reply By: Ross M - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:29

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:29
Scooby

The 100 series pumps failing may be because of the running dry on changeover from one tank to another, most don't have the problem it seems. Possibly not a good example in relation to the use of 2 stroke.

Lots of people use 2 stroke oil in CRD engines, Just make sure it is mineral based. May give a bit more energy dense spray of fuel injected, re lubrication, only time will tell if it does assist in prolonging the life of the fuel system.

People often mention the fuel pump but which one.

A Dmax has three so called fuel pumps.

One electric in the tank ie supply.
One engine driven at the entry to the High Pressure pump so positive fuel pressure is supplied to the HP pump entry port.
Then the HIGH PRESSURE pump which supplies the common rail with pressurized diesel for injector use.

When I read that other post I thought it was about the fuel pump and then it seemed they were talking about the INJECTOR pump.
Cheers

Ross M
AnswerID: 516771

Reply By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:38

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:38
All I can say is don't; no matter what anyone else says.

Until I see data backing their claims I will not use any additives in a CRD engine and there is no reason why you should.

Most people who do things and say they are better lack the $$$$$$$$ to carry out any real research and most data available is done by the seat of the pants technique.

Oil companies spend MILLION's of DOLLAR's on development and research using the latest and greatest minds and equipment, if they could offer their customers a noticeable improvement by using something as simple as two stroke oil in their fuel for bugger all they would...... and you would read about it!

You will always hear stories about this and that failing and the so called reasons why.... always done by an expert who owns a florist shop or hair dressing saloon. LOL

Anything made by humans or us by humans can fail and most of the time the real reason will never be known.

Years ago there were salesman who would go around in horse drawn buggies selling snake oil..... today we have the internet, surprising what, how and why Placebos fool many.

The internet is a great breeding ground for wanttobe's and knowitall's and no matter what qualifications and test procedures they use; they all seem to be experts in not just one area but everything to do with anything..... they tend to know a lot about very little, and what hey do know about is usually wrong.
AnswerID: 516772

Follow Up By: Member - Scooby (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:06

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:06
Hi Olcoolone,
You make some very valid and interesting points in your post and I am sure you are right about the oil companies.
Regards
Scooby
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 15:43

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 15:43
Hi Olcoolone
You make interesting statements which I cannot disagree with. But there are however several examples where they DO cut corners to reduce cost:
* Exhaust diameter - better exhausts deliver better performance and economy
* Shock Absorbers -
* Suspension durability in general -
* Snorkel breathes better and cleaner
* crappy speakers compared to decent ones with magnets just a little heavier

The above demonstrates why I don't think R&D by motor or oil companies mean we get the best of the best.

As for fuel companies, maybe after the research they are faced with a simple commercial decision - do they omit some additives because people will not notice and add 1c per liter (equals $Millions) profit to their bottom line?
I think there is a place for additives, whether it replaces lubricants that have been removed by regulation to meet environmental standards, or to inhibit bacterial growth, etc.

CJ
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 16:27

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 16:27
Csea Jay..... there are many reasons why manufacturers do that.

* Exhaust diameter - better exhausts deliver better performance and economy-
...... Yes and no, but it also increases noise inside the vehicle and for the vast majority they don't need a bigger exhaust or more power.

* Shock Absorbers-
...... Nothing wrong with standard suspension if used for it's intended use.

* Suspension durability in general-
...... Again nothing wrong if used for it's intended use.

* Snorkel breathes better and cleaner-
..... Yes but it also increases noise inside the vehicle and for the vast majority they don't need a snorkel.

* crappy speakers compared to decent ones with magnets just a little heavier-
..... yes agree but the vast majority don't find anything wrong with the factory speakers.

Say all that there is a few other reasons why they don't do as above..... it comes down the end price of the vehicle, there is this another thing called accessories that can be sold when buying new and they are catering for the majority; not the minority.

It's easier seller a vehicle cheaper to more than selling it with all the bells and whistles for more to less people.

What you have to understand is something costing $30.00 on a new vehicle that's not going to affect the majority is money wasted...... think of $30.00 and multiply it by 250,000 vehicles, thats 7.5 million dollars..... add a few more items and there goes 10's of millions in wasted items.

The other thing is no matter what a vehicle manufacturer did not everyone would be happy and still seek to improve.

4x4 people are a funny bunch, they want everything but they also want it for FREE.




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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:45

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:45
Yes agree olcoolone but in the case of using mineral 2T oil at 200:1 I have never heard anything bad from anyone, I have read hundreds of posts. Emissions laws have created problems and the reduction in sulphur levels could cause issues? If there was an associated risk with the discussion point I would concur 100% with everything you said. Having said that what is real and what is "PLACEBO" is also a huge factor, a little oil test done correctly has been ok for me but not sure if it's the Vortex or the oil..? LOL
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Follow Up By: fisherPete - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:35

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:35
I recall seeing research by MB, on adding two st to our poor quality diesel. I think they where worried about our fuel quality, and where experimenting. sure a google would pull it up.
One thing I do remember seeing was 2st put to shame 95% of all additives on the market.
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:37

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:37
See below comments further down this thread Pete on MB
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Follow Up By: Penchy - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 08:33

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 08:33
I disagree. I'm sure oil companies do spend some money on R&D, but the majority of it wouldn't be in current fuels I wouldn't think. And I highly doubt they are spending money on ways to develope the fuels we currently use into better super fuels lol. They will be developing ways to maximise their profits. If it didn't harm our cars, they would put water in the fuels, so I doubt they will be putting 2 stroke oil to see our IP last a bit longer.
Take coles for example. Do you think their $2 milks are 100% milk? To me its just milk flavoured water so I don't buy it. That milk is not bad for the body, but it is not as good for you as regular full cream milk so they will sell it that way to maximise their profits.

Back on topic, I dont have a car with a CRD, but I was using 2 stroke in my fuel until recently when the IP did crap itself and needed a rebuild - after 300k kms though. I did a very rough calculation in my head that if I put oil in my fuel for the next 300k before the next rebuild, I would have spent more on oil than I did on the IP rebuild.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:11

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:11
Well that old chestnut that the car companies and oil companies would make a better product if they could.

Complete and utter bunkum.

The oil companies and the car companines are ALWAYS chasing reduced cost and all to often their agenda is far more synical than that.

The only time any of them spend more money than required by the prevailing specifications, is to gain an edge in the market.
Even then they will do only what is needed for that edge and keep some gains in reserve so they have an easily available response should a competitor match their edge.
Or perhaps they are content to keep one step behind "worlds best practice".

It is well known that there is planned obselecence in motor vehicles and in certain brands things that have been known to fail in their models for decades

As far as the whole two stroke oil in diesel thing, it is possibly one of the best researched and tested oil or fuel additives there have ever been.

There have been threads on major bulliten boards that have been current and continuing to gain posts for many years one or two decades.

There has also been some independent laboratory testing in different countries, and thousands upon thousands of users who have posted their results, some quite detailed on forums world wide.

Remember unlike other proprietary additives, no one is making money by recommending two stroke in diesel....

And yes there are people using two stroke in their common rail diesels.

The important thing to understand is that diesel fuel is an oily fraction from the refinery process and its quality and exactly what it contains varies from brand to brand, time to time and place to place while still conforming to the spec ( just) .......there are those who insist that pump diesel in this country is nowhere near as good as it is in europe for example.
I know well that my diesel performs differently on different brands.

As for the two stroke.
Modern low ash two stroke oil is specifically designed to burn cleanly leaving the absolute minimum of residue.
It has been reasonably argued that it burns cleaner than pump diesel
There have been those who have actually run, non-common rail motors on two stroke alone to prove a point.

So we are adding an oily product that is specifically designed to burn cleanly, to another cheaper, possibly less stringently engineered oily product of a variable nature, in pretty low 200:1 ratio.

Its not like two stroke contains any water, solvents or additional volotiles, metalic or plastic additives or other things that are likley to cause issues when burnt. because it is specifically designed to burn clean in motors that run cleaner than diesels.

Generally as common rail has come onto the market caution has been recommended with using two stroke in common rail motors.

So it is considered wise to use a reputable brand of mineral two stroke intended for high performance air cooled motors.

In more recent times there have been "braver souls" who have run their common rail motors for some years now with two stroke and reported no ill effects, on the contray they have reported, improvements in noise, performance and economy.


If you want more reading on the subject start with the two stroke in diesel threads on Ausfish and 4wdaction......if you then want to read more, I would sugest stocking up on coffee or energy drinks and googeling "two stroke in diesel".....there is weeks of reading out there.
The UK landrover forum ( from memory) has one of the longest running...some of the american diesel forums has some extensive information contributed by people with significant resources and knoweledge.

Satisfy your self and don't be overly concerned about the FUD spread by others.

cheers
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:24

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:24
Yes I agree Bantam that's why I decided to start using Castrol Activ 2T @ 200:1 in my CR Hilux. Not waiting for the fuel companies to make things better, they don't even return your emails. I have been asking BP when might Ultimate Diesel be available in Melbourne, no luck.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:00

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:00
Two stroke oil in diesel fuel is the mechanical equivalent to vitamin supplement in the human body...... some say you don't need it and others say you do.

Those who uses vitamin supplements swear black and blue they work....... thats all that matters, if you think something is benefiting you in some way...... keep using it.

Back in the mid 80's when I first started working in a workshop we had customers come in and buy upper cylinder lubricant because they thought it worked..... sure it might work but by how much...... saying it does work what's the difference in wear and reliability.

If it does work how many people are going to see the real benefit and with vehicles clocking up 25,000k per year on average most won't see the benefit for at least another 10-15 years if not more, I would expect any engine from a reputable manufacturer to last at least 300,000k before major surgery ....... I know one thing I will not have the same vehicle in 10 years time so there is no real benefit in me using anything that is going to help the engine in 10+ years.

When you talk about these big post on internet forums they usually represent a very very small number of people...... there would have to be 10's of millions of people if not 100's of millions who own a diesel engined vehicle...... on the forums there may be 20-50 people on any one forum who comment, if nobody has a problem everyone think GREAT i'll do that because it's proven..... no researcher will base their case study on 0.00000000000000000000012% of the target market.

As I have said before.... the internet is a fantastic incubator and breeding grounds of misconception.

Two thing's for certain..... we know it may or may not work!
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:30

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:30
That might be true Olcoolone but I think the question was does it help lubricity and the test results show that it does. So it does work, do we need it..? That's another question but at around $1-2 per tank nothing learn't nothing gained.
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Follow Up By: Penchy - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:41

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:41
If "the internet is a fantastic incubator and breeding grounds of misconception", what is your role on the forum?
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:09

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:09
TerraFirma... thats the whole problem, the people saying it lubricates better have done so by using no hard evidence.... it's all seat of your pants stuff.

Less noise and adding oil doesn't = less wear or friction.

If they came back with documented data to back their claims then I would say yes..... show me one of these converts who has actually done some hard core testing including measuring friction, wear and abrasion.

I haven't found anyone who can measure microns and micrometers using feel and the human eye...... and have done it under controlled conditions.

Could you imaging life in general is there wasn't REAL testing done on things to determined their benefits ....... BTW there is no real testing done on health food and supplements.

My question is "how do you know for sure it is helping" and if you say yes it does help "how did you come to that conclusion.

Penchy..... my role on forums is to think logically and practical on a subject, if I said cats piss was great for washing windscreen would you use it..... probably not and two stroke oil is no different, people are so cautious and scared of doing costly damage to their CRD system BUT on the other hand they are quite happy to use something that has had no formal testing done to support the claim.

The way I look at it is why on hell would you risk causing damage to something when it is not needed to start with..... to me it's a no brainer!

But for some reason people feel safe if someone else has done it and they think it's right.... again with no real evidence, just a he says she says.

I have no reason to be against it as I have no data available to say it doesn't work, just the same as I have no data to say it works.

When you are talking about micro finished surfaces with tolerances 2 microns or smaller thats a concern for me not to use it.

And another thing is nobody can tell you the real structure and design emphasis of two stroke oil and why it is structurally and chemically different to other oils..... does it have a different or more aggressive solvent compound, how does it respond to temperature and pressure and does the chemical structure change with these two...... remember diamonds are formed using high temperatures and pressure that alter base elements and no diamonds don't come from coal.

All I am saying is it looks good on the surface but how does anyone really know what it is doing when under pressure and high temperatures..... like in a combustion chamber.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:02

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:02
To start with there are several independent tests that show improvements of lubricity of two stroke compared with other commercial products.

As far as personal assessments.

One of the simple indicators of mechanical improvement is noise....in general if a machine sounds smoother a quieter is is probably operating better.
Many testify that their engines run smoother while using 2 stroke.

another indicator of mechainical improvement is efficiency.
many people testify that their engines run better and some can actually quantify that.

as for the structure of two stroke oil....well those who know their business in both the oil and mechanical industry know pretty dan well what is in two stroke...by the way I do not believe there are any solvents in two stroke nor is there any reason for there to be any.

If you spent aven a fraction of the time you have thinking up arguments actually reading the information openly published a lot of your objections would be answered.

I spent quite some hours reading the available material before I decided I would try two stroke in my diesel.

believe me there are some people who a very well qualified and equiped out there...and remember unlike almost every commercial additive none of them stand to gain anything from their findings.

In the US there are many diesel shops and transport companies big enough to have staff and laboritories in house that that would rival anything we would have in our piddling country.

Drop onto some of the US diesel forums and you will see how very seriously they take their engines over there.

Believe me these guys know exactly what is going on in engines.

One thing to understand about two stroke in diesel is that it operated differently and it is for a different purpose in diesel than it is in a petrol fueled two stroke engine.

In the combustion chamber the two stroke burns just like the rest of the fuel.

In the fuel system it acts as a lubricity improver and it is very hard to argue that that is a bad thing.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:58

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:58
Not disagree with the use of it but until someone comes out with REAL data to say if you use it it will give you X if you don't use it.

Has anyone done back to back testing over a period of time, if they have can you send me the link.

I just don't see the point in using something thats not really needed especially in a CRD engine.

The problem is oil is like coca cola nobody really knows what's in it.

If you happy in yourself using it .....keep using it.

And the other thing is I'm sure converts would not admit they were wrong or spend the money to find out.

There are so many misconceptions in the automotive world and in the world in general you don't know what the truth is.

There is no way someone can say it's a benefit...... 15 years down the track what are they going to say "I got another 25,000k out of my engine before it went bang, my engine did 425,000k and if I didn't use it I would of only got 400,000K".

How much more reliability does someone want..... there are many small diesels that have done in excess of 500,000k with no additive, are you saying they would of got more from there engine if they used an additive.

All you have to do is look at the medical world...... some that spring to mind is Aspro, real coffee, red wine, olive oil, fish oil and there are others were once prominent researchers said they we good for you are now coming out saying they could be bad for you.... these are professionals with big research budgets and they still can't decide.

I don't see the point in screwing with $8000+ of injection system.
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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:56

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 11:56
I have used it in my previous 200 Series GXL, and in my current Sahara.

I don't put it in all the time, only when I think of it.

I'm happy with my research into the subject and don't have any concerns about any detrimental effects on the engine.

I've also recently fitted an EGR blanking plate.

I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
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Follow Up By: Aussi Traveller - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:52

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:52
Why did you block the EGR.

Just asking Phil.
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 21:30

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 21:30
Phil, to keep my oil clean and stop black gunge building up inside the engine.

cheers.
I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
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Reply By: Rockape - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:16

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:16
Scooby,
This is a comprehensive test carried out by the diesel place in the states.

It tests many additives including 2 stroke oil.

As for CRD and 2 stroke oil I don't know the answer to that, but 2 stroke oil does reduce wear.2 Stroke oil test
AnswerID: 516781

Follow Up By: Keir & Marg - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 14:40

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 14:40
Interesting report; not sure how many of the products used are available here, but the most interesting thing was that the 2% soy bio-diesel was the best lubricity improver of the lot!!
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 16:40

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 16:40
With the onset of Low Sulphur Diesel fuel I think adding it to non CRD vehicles is a great idea and all should do it.

Low Sulphur Diesel does increase wear on components BUT most older engines where 2 stroke oil would be an advantage has very poor surface treatment on wear parts..... technology used for reducing friction and wear have come in leaps and bounds in the last 5-10 years.... this is mostly to do with better techniques, better metallurgy and reduced production costs.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:47

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:47
That particular independent oil test is one of those often referenced.

One of the common comments is that the two stroke use is TCW3 marine two stroke, rather than a mineral two stroke intended for high performance air cooled engines.

While the TCW3 came up fairly well and far better than many "commercial additives" a mineral two stroke may have shown an even better result.

Because there are certain compromises made in making TCW3 biodegradable in water both before and after its burnt or partly burnt.

cheers
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:26

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:26
Yes and they also mention that the TCW3 Marine oil may not be compliant in 2007 onwards engines, or something of that nature.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:24

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:24
The story is the TCW3 may not be suitable for post 2007(or whatever) vehicles, because that is about when common rail and DPF came into diesel vehicles.

cheers
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Reply By: garrycol - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:18

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:18
I read all the information about smoother running, less smoke, quieter engine, more power, better fuel consumption and better lubrication.

I have been using it now for almost a year in my TDV6 and I have not noticed any difference on the first 5 items and the last is not really quantifiable until something happens.

I still put it in as it does impact the day to day running of the engine and it is possibly cheap insurance if the lubrication aspect does work and may just make the difference to the CRD injection system if I get some dirty fuel. May not but as I said it is cheap so why not.

Mineral 2 stroke oil only.

Garry
AnswerID: 516782

Follow Up By: Steve M1 (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:25

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 13:25
as above but not quite a year - possibly smoother running but could be wishful thinking.
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Reply By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 14:17

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 14:17
Also needs to be low ash FASO FC grade, Castrol 2T Activ seems to be the most popular and readily available, but there is a Gulf Western one that a lot of others use too.

I've been using it for around 50k now, very happy with the results, not seen any outstanding difference in fuel consumption, but it is definitely smoother and quieter.
I believe the extra lubricity of the injector pump is a major benefit, since some diesel now have a lot lower sulphur level.

I have bought a 20lt drum of the castrol now, from a farm supply place, paid a lot less that the normal retail places that sell it for around $10 - $11 / lt in 4l containers.
Paid $7.50 per lt by the 20, and I think Sprint also can get it in, their price was $140 which is $7/lt.

Supercheap have the 1lh for around $14 if you want to try it before buying 4's, which are just under $43.

Worth a go and make up your own mind on it, there's a 60 page thread over on 4WD Action forum http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76845 if you have a few hours to kill :)
There are many more comments on the benefits gained, than a very few saying they can't tell any different.
Also those links to US tests done.
AnswerID: 516790

Follow Up By: Member - Keith P (NSW) - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:13

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:13
My Patrol has now done 193000 k...and I have used ordinary garden variety 2 stroke in the fuel since 100000 k (mostly Gulf western..but that is another story).
The reason for this that at 100000 the motor( RD28 turbo) became fairly hard to start hot. I took it to the local diesel service (a bloke I knew and knew about for years..who diagnosed worn injecter pump (which I had already suspected)...which it turned out to be.He explained that he was starting to get a number of older technology diesels thru his shop and was sure it was from the so called "new fuel" that the government was foisting upon us ..plus.. the propensity for folks to use the cheapest diesel they could find . He reckoned some of the cheaper lesser known companies fuel was no better than" paint thinners with colouring added" to quote him. Anyway...after 2300 bux which replaced pressure head and metering spindle etc etc of pump...truck is now fine. So I (off my own bat) introduced 2 stroke at every fill...and reckon I wont get alzheimers from the brain workout on figuring how much to add each time either. All I was looking for was lubricity and couldnt give a toss about any other side effects etc.And I know it works...just forget to put it in on 1 fill and notice the extra racket the IP makes towards empty...and that niose equals wear in IMO


Cheers Keith
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Reply By: KevinE - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 18:18

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 18:18
I'm surprised at the comments recommending using mineral based 2 stroke oil only, or even using mineral based 2 stroke oil at all.

I use 2 stroke machines day in, day out to make a living & there is absolutely no way I'd put mineral based 2 stroke lube in any of my gear except in an emergency. It doesn't burn clean & gums everything up; mufflers, exhaust ports, pistons etc. Using it massively reduces the performance & life expectancy of 2 stroke equipment.

Is there some reason that its recommended for use in diesel engines over semi, or fully synthetic 2 stroke oils?

Cheers,

Kevin.
AnswerID: 516799

Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 18:40

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 18:40
Some good feedback there.................and another reason to be wary of adding anything to your diesel...unless.....you know exactly what the consequences could be..
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Follow Up By: gbc - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:20

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:20
Mineral based oil was found to remain in solution in diesel. Synthetic 2 stroke falls out of solution.
I agree, in our 2 stroke husquavana cutting saws i'll shoot anybody who approaches it with mineral oil, but in diesel it is the go.
For the OP, I've been running my 4jji powered Colorado (same as your new dmax) on 200:1 for the last 5 years - 150 000 kms. I would state it doesn't give any enoticeable power gain, but I know straight away when I've missed on a refill as the injectors plenty noisier. Cold starts are smoother and idling is smoother (maybe just quieter?) Pre induction lubricity is the only reason I use it - you can hear the difference straight away.
As for manufacturers using it - they were the reason this practice came about. The mercedes 24 hr le mans team got sprung mixing with their diesel years ago when low sulphur diesel was introduced to europe.
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Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:39

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:39
Yes agree GBC. The lubricity is always going to be a better thing with reductions in sulphur. Mercedes were found to be using it however I am not sure at what level, didn't realise it was Le Mans, I had also heard about tests around Europe and them using it to compensate for the differing diesel qualities around the countries.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:40

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 09:40
As for two stroke gumming up two stroke machines.

One of the main issues with two stroke petrol power tools is that they generally run premixed fuel at a fixed ratio.

All too often they still run at 25:1.

In high performance engines two stroke is generally run at 50:1, on engines with oil injection it may be run as lean as 100:1....70:1 is certainly common.

Combine the problem of running unnecessarily stiff ratios and the fixed oil fuel ratio, the cheap oil they recieve, the problem that they often contain stale fuel AND the problem that all too often 2 stroke power tools are not run long enough to get hot and not run at high enough RPM to clean themselves out.

There is a problem with two stroke machines..and the way they are used, not necessarily the oil its self.

I have a second hand makita leaf blower that used to belong to a mate.
When I got it the muffler was bunged up with soot and such , because he had been using a cheap brand, running it at 25:1 sometimes heavier..thinking that was a good idea
In addition he very rarely ran it at full throttle or for very long.
I run it 50:1 and often run it hard for more than a tank of fuel in a session...no problems now.

Remember we are running this two stroke in diesel at 200:1, we are not running it thru a crank case and we are not mixing it in an air stream thu a carburtta.

It is a low ratio, oil in oil solution that is never exposed to open air or atomised into an airstream, so the two stroke never gets the oportunity to be left behind on surfaces.

OH
and have you seen what a mess diesel fuel makes when it is left to exaporate on surfaces.

cheers
1
FollowupID: 796330

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:32

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:32
I have a 2 stroke Stihl Blower and took it in for service as it was stalling and had lost power. The Stihl Service manager said that it has an exhaust restrictor that was blocked so removed that and he said there is only one way to run these things, they are designed to be run flat stick.! The gumming of the oil/fuel is an issue for sure, the list of things we need to keep running regularly is often too much.! LOL
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FollowupID: 796337

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:34

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:34
Yep modern unleaded fuel is only guaranteed to be in spec for 90 days, and that is clean unadulterated fuel correctly stored.

As soon as you mix two stroke with it, the shelf life drops considerably, many consider 30 days to be pushing it.

Then if you leave two stroke mix sitting in the float bowl of a carby, the higher volotiles in the fuel evaporate and the remainder oxydises and turns to gum and an almost unburnable I don't know what.

Leaving the machine sitting on a trailer or the back of a ute in the sun does not help either.

It is entirely reasonable to expect the fuel in the float bowl, on a machine left in the sun to go off in a couple of days if not faster.

It's interesting how much better a manchine starts even cold when it has a belly full of fresh fuel.

cheers
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FollowupID: 796344

Follow Up By: Member - Keith P (NSW) - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:49

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:49
X2 There Bantam.
You should see what happens when a Homelite chainsaw was started after 7 years of sitting. My next door neighbour banged on the shed door n wanted to know if he needed to call the fire brigade...oops...forgot to drain fuel tank all those years ago hey. It all ended ok tho ...n saw is still going fine ...n all that was 3 years ago.


Cheers Keith
Nothin is ever the same once I own it ...........

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FollowupID: 796345

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:04

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:04
Oh hell he must have has old leaded fuel in it then...because 7 year old you may find 7 year old unleaded hard to burn even with a match.

cheers
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FollowupID: 796346

Follow Up By: KevinE - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 16:33

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 16:33
Hi Terrafirma,

I run 2 Stihl BG85 blowers; that thing the Stihl guy removed was the spark arrester. A lot of contractors remove them too, because they always gum up. Yup, 2 strokes are made to be run at WOT (wide open throttle) I stick with the Stihl 2 stroke oil & don't use any fuel with ethanol in it. I run it at 25:1 in all my chainsaws, blowers, hedge trimmers etc & have never had any issues. The Stihl oil is made by Castrol, but if you buy the Castrol brand be aware that they put out various oils for various 2 stroke engines. I know a guy that put Castrol for outboard engines into his $1,700 Husky chainsaw & seized it.

Hi GBC,

I hear what you're saying regarding separation of synthetic oils & diesel, but there's still no way I'd put mineral oil in my diesel engine after seeing the deposits it leaves in 2 strokes. What Husky saws are you running mate? Are you running any of those new 5 series "auto tunes"?

Cheers,

Kevin.
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FollowupID: 796374

Follow Up By: KevinE - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 16:37

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 16:37
Opps: I run my gear at 50:1, not 25:1 as posted above! Freudian slip lol!
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FollowupID: 796375

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:06

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:06
A lot of the problem with two strokes is accumulation of oil in the crank case when running at low RPM or when changing RPM.

Brush cutters and chain saws being what they are they get reved up and down constantly and thus the oil load in the crankcase and thus the oil mixture burnt varies...so you get what amounts of puffs of rich unburnt oil in the muffler.

AND the petrol burns faster than the oil, leaving and oil residue.....um that is the whole point of two stroke

Remember diesel is far from as clean as petrol and diesel engines output a fair bit of carbon soot.

AND remember its running oil in oil at 200:1, that is a big differenece between running oil in petrol at 50:1

cheers
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FollowupID: 796376

Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:02

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:02
K970s tried and true mate.
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FollowupID: 796379

Follow Up By: KevinE - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:31

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:31
I run a little top handled chainsaw for in tree use, I use it for around 5 hours a day, most every day. Its now >4 years old & still, there is no oil build up in the muffler & negligible carbon build up around the exhaust port.

I also run a 4.6 KW saw that I have bars from 17" - 32" for; It only gets used for about 8 - 12 cuts on the lower trunk when dropping trees. The little saw above does everything up till then! The fuel in this saw can be in the tank for months on end. I've never once had the fuel go off!

I also trim hedges & have a Stihl FS85R with a combi tool hedge trimmer attached & this tool gets flogged just like the top handled saw mentioned above. The same comments apply here too - no issues re gumming up or clogging.

I have a brush cutter that often may not get used for 2 years & it sits there with the same fuel in the tank in the shed waiting to be used - still I've never had any fuel go off!

I also own a spare top handled saw, a Stihl hedge trimmer, an Echo hedge trimmer & a spare Stihl Combo Tool hedge trimmer that all sit in my toolbox for months on end waiting for use, with fuel in them - I've still never had any fuel ever go off!

Then there's my Makita 4 stroke blower that I forget about for months at a time, so it sits in the shed with unleaded in the tank! Still, the fuel has never gone off!

I've got other tools too, but you get the picture lol!
1
FollowupID: 796380

Follow Up By: KevinE - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:34

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:34
Hi gbc,

They're a very good unit!

Cheers,

Kevin..... :=)

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FollowupID: 796381

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:16

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:16
I have had fuel go off to such an extent that the engines will not start or do not run well.

I have had other machines that have not run or started well untill they are refilled with fresh fuel.

How long that takes varies a great deal.

Just because the enegine starts and runs does not mean the fuel is good or to specification

The 90 days that the fuel companies quote in their documentation is what they will guarantee the fuel being to specification.

If the fuel is properly off it will have a distinct musty tone, where fresh fuel will be sharper and more fruity.

one of the problem with fuel going stale is gum and varnish, some of the fractions in the fuel will oxydise and as they do they turn to varnish and line the insides of the fuel tank and fuel system.

If you have seen a goldish or yellowish tinge on surfaces that is what that is, in extreeme cases it become like scaly flakes....I cleaned out a fuel tank covered in the stuff.......most probably due to being constantly left partly full of fuel over time.

make no mistake this modern fuel does go off.

cheers
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FollowupID: 796394

Reply By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:32

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 19:32
I have been testing it in a Hilux Common Rail Diesel and 2 x Cummins Mechanical Diesel Engines in a boat. I have been using Castrol Activ 2T at 200:1. I have also been mixing it with Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel. I managed to get Cetane ratings from Nulon who conducted some other diesel tests, Vortex Premium Diesel was 54 Points Cetane to Shell 48 Points (Approximately). I agree with what Olcolone is saying BUT if you want to wait around for Oil Companies to do tests you'll never know the answer. I was very concerned about putting it in my Hilux but decided to put around 400ml of oil first and then the 70 litres of Vortex to ensure a good mix. I have done 3 tanks so far and then stopped last week and ran 2 x tanks of Shell Diesel. My driving has been mixed but I can concur that I get better mileage with the Vortex/Oil Combo and the engine seems to be at it's smoothest. Cold start rattle seems to be the same. I have heard nothing bad from anyone re mixing 200:1 of the Castrol Activ 2T. The Cummins Diesels run quitter with this combo although I can't say which is effecting the change the most, the Vortex or the Oil? The reduction in sulphur levels is a real problem for pumps and who knows what else? I can't give you any accurate data as my tests are for my own satisfaction, I'm not here to convince anyone else, so I don't measure accurately. I can say though that whilst my tests are somewhat young I have not had any issues. With common rail engines you must ensure a good mix when using additives, it is possible some additives not mixed and running straight through to the injectors could cause an issue. Speaking to Rankin Diesel today and they are doing 3-4 vehicles a day , replacing common rail injectors, however prices seem to have dropped and re-cycled re-man injectors are available from people like Baley Diesel in NSW.
AnswerID: 516805

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:49

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:49
There has been some discussion on LCOOL about this and apparently the BP premium specifies its cetane level (51 from memory?) but Caltex Vortex does not provide any cetane specification on its site

I personally favor the Vortex because that is available locally but I now notice that the premium BP is becoming more available too.
Have not got the courage up to add two stroke myself yet but many do and are happy with the results
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FollowupID: 796290

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:58

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 20:58
Unfortunately we cannot get BP Ultimate in Melbourne so Vortex it is for me. The Cetane numbers i got are re-produced ones from a Nulon test they did on their cetane booster.
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FollowupID: 796294

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 21:08

Tuesday, Aug 20, 2013 at 21:08
Here are the Cetane numbers pulled directly from the Nulon website, see Nulon Cetane Booster. Small corrections on my numbers, I am getting old.

Indicative Cetane number increases:
Caltex Vortex Diesel Cetane number
53.5+DFB = 61.3 (7.8 cetane number increase)
Caltex Diesel Cetane number
54.4+DFB = 62.8 (8.4 cetane number increase)
Shell Diesel Cetane number
51.3+DFB = 58.6 (7.3 cetane number increase)
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FollowupID: 796296

Follow Up By: Member - bbuzz (NSW) - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:26

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:26
Its interesting that no one has mentioned adding Chem-Tech additive.

I have a 2008 Prado and am concerned about the clogging of the injectors and the EGR and the accumulation of carbon 'marbles' in the sump.

I have only 70,000 on it at the moment but am monitoring the sump (inspection camera) and the injector seals at each service (7,000km).

I am hoping that the Chem-Tech will loosen up any deposits and allow them to blow out through the system, hence keeping the engine clean.

Some evidence from people who have pulled the top of their engines down that it does keep them cleaner.

Only time will tell.....

bill
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FollowupID: 796353

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:50

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:50
BBuzz I was told the carbon marbles are a result of the injector seals leaking and they changed them on the later models. They are cheap to buy if you wanted to replace them but a sump inspection of to check that the pickup screen is clear is a good idea and I used to do the same.Blocked pickup screen has killed a few motors
Apparently the chemtech additive is good to prevent any algae growth in tank, not sure if it will help with the carbon balls though
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FollowupID: 796355

Follow Up By: Member - bbuzz (NSW) - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:00

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 15:00
Yes they are but the Chem-Tech should soften any deposits so they can be blown away or burnt off.

bill
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FollowupID: 796363

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:48

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:48
We've got 2 common rail diesels now and only use the BP fuels because they publish their cetane numbers - typically 51 for the standard diesel and 52 for Ultimate. Our VW requires 50+ and our 200series is 48+. I've had an email reply from Caltex and the only definite I can get from them is that their diesel fuels meet the minimum spec of 46 cetane. They most likely are higher .Shell say 48.

Regarding Chemtech, its an additive that I've used for the past 20+ years in my diesel 4wds. It reduces the black smoke and the motors seem to run better. Its other claims are to stop the growth of algae and to control water and I've never had a problem with either.

In the past the Chemtech was a water dispersant - so I phoned them recently to ask about the common rail motors and water. They said they'd changed the formulation so water now precipitates out instead of being dispersed and going through the pump. So if emulsified water is present, it will get drained at a filter change.
Its a cheap additive and from my observation has a little more science behind it than adding 2-stroke.
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FollowupID: 796397

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Thursday, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00

Thursday, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:00
Phil, Nulon did a cetane test with their cetane booster and published around 53 points cetane for the Caltex Vortex Diesel. See my figures in the above post. On mixing 2T oil with diesel this is done for lubricity, the Chemtech does not offer this, it is an injector cleaner. So 2 different additives if you like for 2 different purposes. As for the science, tests have been done and prove that 2T oil improves the lubricity. Hope that clarifies things for you.
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FollowupID: 796421

Reply By: Warren B - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:08

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 17:08
Hi Scooby, D Max have just started making their own, or rather get Castrol to make it for them to their spec's. Only used 1 bottle so far, so the jury is still out. be interesting to see the result ( if any ) have been using additives in my trucks for years, some performed better some no difference, I always use nulon in the engine and it has saved me once, saved BIG $$$$$$$$$$$ so will keep using it in all vechiles.
Cheers warren
AnswerID: 516856

Reply By: Gronk - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:18

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 18:18
Well, there is a lot of replies, and a few are happy to use additives, but I can't see any evidence of Facts regarding to advantages of using it ??

As an added lubricant, it sounds good....but no facts..

As a problem of affecting the very fine tolerances of pumps and injectors....who knows ??

I suppose if some are reporting no problems with it after a lot of K's, then it can't be all that bad, but if it was my 4wd, and it was still under warranty, I wouldn't be telling the dealer I was running an additive !!
AnswerID: 516859

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 19:02

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 19:02
Gronk, Read the report, it has been proven to improve lubricity, I have been trying it and I think my engine runs smoother, at $1-2 per tank I 'm happy, having said that its no necessity.
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FollowupID: 796383

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:29

Wednesday, Aug 21, 2013 at 22:29
Gronk mate there are plenty of facts if you are prepared to go and look for them.

There is simply weeks of reading out there.

Sure there are a lot of fairly simple posts from people who have tried it but there are some pretty solid scienifically bassed independent reports and comments from qualified peopel if you want to go and look for them.

There are also a few ding dong arguments between sceptics who raise all the issues mentioned above but have not tried or run the stuff and people who realy know there business and have extensive experience running the stuff.

What you will find conspicuous is the lack of anybody with anything like a reasonable claim of having a problem running the stuff as long as the simple basics are followed.

cheers
1
FollowupID: 796395

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