What can YOU do as a diyer with gas & electricis

Submitted: Thursday, Sep 26, 2013 at 20:46
ThreadID: 104490 Views:3807 Replies:7 FollowUps:63
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HI
This may answer your questions on this often hotly debated subject

http://news.domain.com.au/domain/diy/what-not-to-diy-with-plumbing-and-electrical-20120619-20ld9.html


PeterQ
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Reply By: cookie1 - Thursday, Sep 26, 2013 at 23:05

Thursday, Sep 26, 2013 at 23:05
There is part of the problem straight away, Bunnings and most other hardware stores sell electrical cable & fittings hence people think they can do it themselves.

Saw a recent one where someone had bought the cable from one place, a pump from somewhere else and then got an electrician involved to terminate the ends, didn't work properly, so he was asking who he should pursue legally.

There are Acts & Standards involved as well as little things such as voltage drop and rerating of cables.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Thursday, Sep 26, 2013 at 23:36

Thursday, Sep 26, 2013 at 23:36
Hi Cookie
YES, all you say & more

It is not as simple as many think
Otherwise why would the "wiring rules" alone cover over 400pages
then there can be substandards involved, PLUS additional STATE regulations

In QLD Bunnings & the like are required by law to have signs warning DIYers that certain items on sale shall not be used by DIYERS
The Staff are also required to point this out to the purchasers


PeterQ
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Reply By: Juzzy - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 00:02

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 00:02
How does this affect owner/builders?
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 00:14

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 00:14
Owner builders have never been legally able to do plumbing, roofing or electrical work!

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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:42

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:42
I do it all and would argue that its almost legal.

On the electrical side we must remember that most of the stuff regarding consumer type house wiring etc is legal in NZ , we use the same standards also.

The government even puts out detailed documents to assit in fitting 240v plugs etc , and that we have bi-lateral agreements with NZ in many areas.

So while its still technically illegal , you have a good case to do many of those things yourself.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:54

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:54
When you get a quote of $240.00 and 3 months wait to replace a light switch I'll do it myself thank you.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:04

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:04
Builders are not allowed to carry out any electrical work they must get an Electrical Contractor

Just remember that your insurance is most likely to not pay up if the wiring system is in any way compromised, you also have the Public Liability if someone gets a shock from your work.

There are some subtle diffferences between NZ & Australia in AS3000

cheers
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:12

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:12
The kicker for me Lyn was the study done on saftey outcomes from your consumer household level electrical work.

I think it was about the same or slightly less deaths the NZ way.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:27

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:27
Robin, I recall reading somewhere that in England that the death rate was actually less. In the USA Home Depot and Lowes hold regular DIY classes every Saturday to teach basic home wiring and sell many books on the same subject, all they say is "if you don't think you can do it, get an electrician"
At least being able to buy simple DIY instructions you eliminate most if not all the risk.
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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:31

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 08:31
Here you go......................

Wiring 1-2-3
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:41

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:41
So it's legal in another country, does that mean we can stone our wives to death for adultery?

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:51

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:51
Lyn, As the reference you gave (Wiring 1-2-3) pertains to USA it is hardly applicable in Australia.
Do you also have a reference to "Home Brain Surgery" ?
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:59

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:59
You gotta love this one - normally the saftey arguement is trotted out then people run away.

Here it can't be applied , and is obviously a straight out "jobs for the boys" case.

What a dumbed down nation we have become - no wonder we have just achieved another first in Australia.

"Worlds most obese country"
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:00

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:00
Little testy today are we Allan.................

Just pointing out what happens in most other countries and wonder why Australia is such a "Nanny State"

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 11:10

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 11:10
This whole subject was covered in australias Siliconchip mag
which quotes the following gov stats up to 2008

Electrical fatalities per million
--------------------------------
NSW 0.88
Vic 1.17
Qld 0.8
WA 1.5

NZ 0.7


By the way its hard to find this document now but its an NZ guide
on how to do these things

http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/documents/legislation-policy/electricity-act-regulations-codes/standards-and-codes-of-practice/NZECP%2051%202004%20New%20Zealand%20Electrical%20Code%20of%20Practice%20for%20Homeowner%20Occupiers%20Electrical%20Wiring%20Work%20in%20Domestic%20Installations%20%20-%20Published%2027%20July%202004%20.pdf


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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 16:36

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 16:36
Well I have to say that I am particularly disappointed in some of the threads as I held many of you in high regard.

Guys go do your own electrical wiring, go on knock yourselves out, I hope that no one suffers a fatality at your hands as you may not like what will follow.

Causing death by reckless behaviour would be one that I could think of notwithstanding, sorry sir but no your house is not insured as your wiring systems caused the fire and it does not meet AS3000 - this is where our insurance picks up the TAB for our ommissions / error.

So, how many of you know the correct procedure for testing a circuit prior to energisation - saw many fail at college as they missed the first important test. Yes guys & girls we have to go to college for 4 years and pass exams and yet people bitch because we make a living.

How many of you own a polarity tester, megger and RCD Tester or a current copy of AS3000 & AS3008?

How many of you know how to correctly rate or derate a cable and the minimum size conductors for certain situations? The requirements for protection against hazardous / harmful objects?

Good god seriously

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 19:32

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 19:32
I'm with you cookie.
Measuring "fatalities" is a pretty drastic way of determining competency.
I have no electrical qualifications but can do most simple 240V stuff myself, but for peace of mind and to retain the resale of my house, I simply call an electrician. Then I go to work and earn the money to pay for their bill. There's no need to lower the standards we require in Australia.
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Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:13

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:13
Peter (oldtrack123) posts a very valid reference to a controversial subject. Furthermore, it contains a significant line.........."amateurs can't begin to understand the complexities of household electrical systems."
It is rather like the old Yes Minister series......"I don't know what I don't know".

Every qualified electrical worker will have seen dodgy electrical installations that were life-threatening but have not yet actually caused a fatality. I certainly have and in particular one where a householder almost killed his wife by simply placing a switch in the neutral conductor.

As for the argument about deregulation in NZ, look at the screen grab of NZ regulations below. It is required that all work be inspected by a Registered Electrical Inspector. Therein lies the safeguard in the NZ situation.

"Almost legal" Robin? Yes maybe, and almost safe.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:14

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:14
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:32

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:32
Allan,
My interpretation of that would be that Items contained in Subsection (e) install, extend, and alter subcircuits (including submains)
need to be tested by a registered electrical inspector.

NOWHERE does it say that items (a) thru (d) need to be inspected!
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:39

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:39
As this isn't NZ, it's irrelevant.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:58

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 09:58
Yes Lyn, My reference pertains to Subsection "e" pertaining to installations. I understood that was the subject of the Peter's original post.
What is your point?
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:02

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:02
Shaker, my reference to NZ regs was in regard to Robin Miller's post above. Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe you should tell Robin that it is irrelevant?
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:03

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:03
Nice try Allan....................

Quote....."It is required that all work be inspected by a Registered Electrical Inspector. Therein lies the safeguard in the NZ situation."
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Follow Up By: Echucan Bob - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:56

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:56
While I consider most home electrical and plumbing jobs within the scope of the competent handyman, I marvel that we allow anyone to work on important systems in motor vehicles. I would argue that a botched brake job is more potentially harmful than a botched home wiring job.

A few years ago I attracted the opprobrium of the gasfitting cogniscenti by describing how I refilled single use Coleman gas cylinders with BBQ gas.

I had to laugh the other day, I was googling how to euthanase a cat, and so many responses were along the lines of "don't be so cruel or lousy, get a licensed vet to do it".

Its sometimes difficult to discern what is sensible advice, and what is raw self interest. As someone said recently, self interest is always a good bet.

Bob
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:05

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:05
Whats the difference between me the home owner and a 16yr old apprentice running / pulling cable in the downstairs area of my house ?
The $$$$$$$ the Electrician charges by the hour for his apprentice and that I can do it in 1/2 the time to a 'standard' that exceeds a 16yr olds idea of a days work......
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:23

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:23
The West Australian electrical wiring laws are now laid out that the last registered electrician who touched any wiring in a house, is personally responsible for any faults in the wiring that result in house damage or personal injury or death.

This means that they can be held responsible for any bodgy wiring done by any other contractor or wiring amateur! It essentially means that they have to thoroughly check every item of wiring in the house before they do any work. So, no need to wonder about the cost of hiring a sparkie!

As someone who has had his house burn to the ground, through the fault of the power supply company, I have a full appreciation of the consequences of electrickery going wrong (the slack 3 phase wires on the road outside the house crossed up in a high wind and fed 90V into a neutral wire - thus boosting house voltage to 330V. My bedside clock radio melted, set fire to curtains and the rest is history. No-one was home at the time).

Anyone who does house wiring repairs without the full training of a complete electrical course, and without a licence - risks being potentially held responsible for any house damage or destruction - or even fatalities resulting from wiring faults causing a fire - even if the fault didn't start with the wiring they touched.

The few hundred dollars I pay to qualified sparkies to install or modify any wiring in my house is a small price to pay for personal protection from any future wiring damage or death liability.

Many sparkies, particularly one-man operations, are generally happy for you to assist with simple labouring parts of the installation, particularly if it means they finish that day, rather than having to return the following day for an hours work.
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:19

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:19
HI
Wow, I did expect some reactions from the armchair exSperts but!!

Allan's point regarding the need to HAVE ALL electrical work inspected by a registered INSPECTOR,
IS THE SITUATION in New Zealand
Did all the "exspurts" miss that???
It is not just do & that's IT??

THe comment about needing an electrician to change a light bulb is absolutely stupid & just shows that some cannot EVEN READ what they can do
What hope would they have of understanding technical matters??


Alloy c/t posted:[quote]
Whats the difference between me the home owner and a 16yr old apprentice running / pulling cable in the downstairs area of my house ?
The $$$$$$$ the Electrician charges by the hour for his apprentice and that I can do it in 1/2 the time to a 'standard' that exceeds a 16yr olds idea of a days work[end quote ]
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:23

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:23
HI
Hit the wrong key & posted before finishing

[Quote]FollowupID: 798723 Submitted: Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 12:05
Alloy c/t posted:
Whats the difference between me the home owner and a 16yr old apprentice running / pulling cable in the downstairs area of my house ?
The $$$$$$$ the Electrician charges by the hour for his apprentice and that I can do it in 1/2 the time to a 'standard' that exceeds a 16yr olds idea of a days work[end quote]

The DIFFERENCE IS THE LICENSED ELECTRICIAN TAKES ON FULL RESPNSABILITY FOR THE APPRENTICES WORK
The LICENSED electrician has to test & certyify that the work is safe & compies to the rules ,standards .regulation

PeterQ
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:32

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:32
HI

Well, I hope you do understand that may not be almost certainly will not be relevant to AUS standards
The internet puts out many things that are not relevant except to the country of origin

PeterQ
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:40

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:40
HI
[Quote]Lyn W3 posted:
Allan,
My interpretation of that would be that Items contained in Subsection (e) install, extend, and alter subcircuits (including submains)
need to be tested by a registered electrical inspector.

NOWHERE does it say that items (a) thru (d) need to be inspect[end quote ]
As I did say earlier it seems some people only see what they want to see
They are two seperate clauses
ONE LIMITS the ACCESS to live wiring!!
The other is ALL embracing
Yes ,would have real problems understanding the Standards with ALL the CROSS referencing.
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:47

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 15:47
HI
[Quote ]Echucan Bob posted:
While I consider most home electrical and plumbing jobs within the scope of the competent handyman, I marvel that we allow anyone to work on important systems in motor vehicles. I would argue that a botched brake job is more potentially harmful than a botched home wiring job[end quote]

I believe if you were to actually check, you will that most states require qualified persons to work on vehicle brake systems
Just that they have not considered banning DIY on own vehicle
Obviosly not sufficient concern!!

PeterQ
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Follow Up By: nickb - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 02:43

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 02:43
QUOTE:

Ron N posted:
The West Australian electrical wiring laws are now laid out that the last registered electrician who touched any wiring in a house, is personally responsible for any faults in the wiring that result in house damage or personal injury or death.

This means that they can be held responsible for any bodgy wiring done by any other contractor or wiring amateur! It essentially means that they have to thoroughly check every item of wiring in the house before they do any work. So, no need to wonder about the cost of hiring a sparkie!



When I work on houses/shops, I give the owner a Safety Certificate which clearly states what I have done and my responsibility lies solely on what's on that bit of paper. (I am also responsible for anything unsafe which I am reasonably expected to know, but as long as I have notified the owner I have completed my duty of care, provided its not immediately life threatening.)

I can't be expected to check every piece of wiring in any house/shop I work on otherwise it would cost $700+ to install a powerpoint haha! As long as I have tested my work and recorded the results I have done my bit.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 07:29

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 07:29
Another myth busted! Thanks Nick.
This occupation abounds with myths.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 08:04

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 08:04
In SA we have to issue an Electrical Certificate of Compliance, this covers the work that we carry out (and are responsible for) as well as any defects that we see in a seperate section. If there is something dangerous then we have a Duty of Care to de-energise / make safe and alert the authorities if the client does not want it repaired there and then.

A copy of the COC gets sent into the Technical Regulator and they will randomly do an audit checking random jobs that you have carried out.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:52

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:52
No myth at all about what I stated. The info came directly from the mouth of my local qualified electrician, who installed my last lot of wiring, and who knows his job thoroughly.
I'd suggest nickb needs to check up on the latest legal adjustment to his job requirements!

Cookie appears to have covered the law relating to the requirements. If the sparkie chooses to ignore something that he sees as dangerous, then he becomes responsible for any electrical disasters that might happen afterwards.
As Greg told it to me, he's OBLIGED by law to ensure the entire setup is safe and correctly installed.

He said, once he's signed off on the job, he's the one held responsible for the entire setup - even if there's been a dozen electricians (or amateurs) in there before him - as he was the LAST electrician to sign off on the house, 'van or whatever.

As it turned out, he found a heap of dodgy wiring that was done by the QUALIFIED electrician that had installed some wiring a couple of years ago! He was furious about it, and wanted details about the bloke, so he could make out a report.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 11:31

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 11:31
Hi Ron,

in SA we do not become responsible for the entire installation only those sections that we have worked on, but on the COC we can list any defects observed, typically this would be "No defects observed" but I have written down "incorrect cabling size used for GPO contrary to AS3000", it was a 1mm2 cable not 2.5mm as required - but the client said "it only feeds my HiFi so what's the problem?" in that instance I disconnected it as it can lead to a fire, once we write this then we absolve ourselves of any responsibility that we have no control over.

I can only assume in WA that your sparkies need to do a complete audit everytime they change a GPO which means crawling around every nook and cranny in the ceiling space and polarity, megger & RCD testing each and every outlet even though they have not touched any of it. It must cost a small fortune to get a GPO or light switch / fitting fitted.

I'm not saying that your electrician is wrong as I don't know the law in WA, but with the pending nationalisation of the Licences this will be interesting as this would fall under the WA Electricity Act. He does have a vested interest though in telling you that, I have seen this sort of thing before.

cheers & no offence meant to anyone
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 11:51

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 11:51
As we now know, many electrical jobs can be done around your home by oneself in countries like NZ - and I attach a link to NZ government brochure outlining this.

In another post above I included a link to the full NZ government document which included DIY instructions.

For further reading regarding why its also apparently safter, refer to Siliconchip june 2008.



http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/documents/about/publications/publications-for-consumers/A%20Guide%20to%20Doing%20your%20Own%20Electrical%20Work%20Safely%20and%20Legally.pdf
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:08

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:08
So ,I'm supposed to pay for a fully qualified electrician and settle for the 16yr old apprentice while the electrician is of running around to different job sites , comes back ,spends 10/15 minutes doing the actual connection and yet I am supposed to pay $$$$$$$$$ per hr for the electrician whereas the apprentice gets $$ ,,,,,, something VERY wrong with the system. I'll save my money and do my own cable pulling and then call for actual hookup /Check.

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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:12

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:12
Don't be suprised if the electrician refuses the job and hits you with a call out fee, typically most have different rates for apprentices but of course let's not pay apprentices and just engage full sparkies that would be fine yeh - short term, long term?

Some things do seem silly but they are the rules we have in AUSTRALIA, if you don't like our system but love the New Zealand rules then Bon Voyage.

You aren't even supposed to lay electrical conduits now I reckon this is real silly providing a sparky comes through and OK's it then what's the problem. Although I had a relative once that didn't dig deep enough and I had to really come down hard on him to get to the required depth.

cheers
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:40

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:40
cookie 1 ,, its not that we don't need or want apprentices , what I object to is paying through the nose for a fully qualified tradesman for 8hrs work when said "qualified tradesman" is actually only doing 10/15 minuets work , the other 7.45 hrs should be charged accordingly ,,,, do you pay for an eye fillet steak and settle for shin beef ??
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:57

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:57
Oh I totally 100% agree, that is not looking after you the customer and I would raise that before paying the bill, he does still have certain overheads like the apprentices wages although that's not much anyway but then the insurances, tools and vans etc.

Unfortunately it is no different when you go into Nissan or Toyota and you pay full price even though they get the juniors to do the heavy lifting

Mmmm eye fillet now you have made me hungry :)

cheers
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:42

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:42
HI Alloy CT
I suppose when you go to specialist Dr, say heart surgeon, you only expect to pay him laborour's rate when he is not doing the ACTUAL operation!!
OR your GP, when he is only filling in paper work [certificates ,scripts your record /referall etc]
Do you complain when all those apprentices work on your car
Or the builders /plumbers etc apprentices.


PeterQ
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Follow Up By: nickb - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:23

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:23
Hi Ron,

Maybe my wording was ambiguous but I have the same understanding as cookie1. Our Safety Certificates have a section DETAILS OF WORK COMPLETED where we list specifically what we have done. One of the reasons is to effectively "draw a line in the sand" as to where my responsibility ends. There is also a section DETAILS OF ANY DEFECTS OBSERVED where any defects are listed, similar to the SA Certificate of Compliance (I have worked in WA and SA and know how both systems work). You will have received one of these from your sparky after he completed his work.

I won't go into detail, Electricty (Licensing) Regulations 1991 covers all our obligations. EnergySafety, the technical regulator, regularly sends information to electrical contractors to keep them in the loop. Visit the EnergySafety website, it will confirm everything I have said. That site has information and links which contradict your electrician's information. Likewise, I would like to see the origins of his information too.

One of the reasons we are not responsible for everything is that we can not see/test everything.

If there was a cable in a wall cavity that had been stripped down to its bare conductors, it would not be picked up by any test if is was not shorting/touching anything else. How can we be responsible for that?? We don't have Xray vision.

What if we were to install a powerpoint right next to the switchboard? There would be no reason to get into the roofspace so why should I be responsible for what has happened up there? I have to make sure the circuit I have installed is up to current regulations, that is all. Would you be happy to pay me for 4hours labour to check the whole house for a 30min job?

What if I was to do a small job at a school? Do I have to check out the whole school to make sure it is safe?

I'm sure you understand where I am coming from.

Maybe your sparky needed some extra work, maybe the electrical work was dangerous, only your sparky knows. Maybe you should get a second opinion before you pay to get work done. I don't like when other sparkies infer that things HAVE to be repaired when they legally don't need it. Sure, things may not be technically correct but that does not mean they are unsafe/dangerous.

Of course if any dangerous/unsafe situations are found while doing the job I originally was engaged to do then yes, I am obliged to do something about it. Not necessarily fix it but notify the owner in writing (the Safety Certificate covers this) depending of the fault. I take photos and notes of any defects found to cover myself. I DO NOT have to test the whole house/installation, just the circuit/s I was working on.

Cheers
Nick

PS I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just want to make sure the correct information is getting passed on.
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Reply By: Shaker - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 16:01

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 16:01
How is this relevant to this forum?
AnswerID: 518810

Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 18:38

Friday, Sep 27, 2013 at 18:38
Motorhomes, caravans and campers nearly all have 240V wiring that requires installation and certification by a qualified electrician. I guess that make the thread relevant to a 4WD/camping/outback touring forum? - even though we have diverged onto homes.
As I understand, caravan park owner/managers are supposed to sight every motorhome, caravan and camper certificate for wiring, or refuse entry to any that do not comply.
I've never once had any caravan park ask to see any wiring certificate on any caravan or motorhome that I've used for travel or work. Neither does this system expose anyone who has done dodgy electrical repairs or additions to their certified 'van, camper, or motorhome - thus showing that the "system", as it stands, is flawed. I guess the next stage, is annual wiring inspections? [:-(
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:21

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:21
Ron,
My brother and I are converting an imported motorhome from left to right hand drive and all that entails. The project is now ready for the engineering inspection, however when getting a local (NSW) electrician to install the 240 volt work we asked him for a certificate of compliance. He virtually refused and said it was not necessary. We could not get him to oblige us so we have kept the receipt as that is the only proof we have of compliance.

Gas installations, both fixed and mobile, do have to have a certification form filled out and a compliance plate, why not electricians. ???

Caravans electrics and probably gas installations are fitted out by, dare I call them fitters, in the factory with most probably little or no supervision.
Asking for an electrical compliance certificate in these circumstances is useless as such certificates do not exist But they should.
Both gas and 240 volts can be life threatening when something goes wrong.

Mind you I am with Robbin Miller, 40 years of hobby electronics gives us an insight into what is safe and what is not. I have seen some shoddy work carried out by so called qualified professionals.

Cheers, Bruce
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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FollowupID: 798782

Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:53

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:53
Hi Bruce, this does not sound right, contact the NSW Technical Regulator and ask them and make sure you have the guys details - you did see his licence didn't you. I bet you paid cash too?

Office of the Technical Regulator - New South Wales Office (02) 9213 8600

Cheers
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FollowupID: 798785

Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:55

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 13:55
Bruce - It appears that the various states have a wide range of compliance requirements for vans and motorhomes.

In W.A., all caravans have always had to have an electrical compliance sticker. As an owner of many vans over 3 decades for work and pleasure purposes, I always had to ensure that that sticker was visible in a front window in W.A.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/energysafety/PDF/Publications/elec_caravans_tents.pdf

This Jayco sticker is a bit of a cop-out, with the "as far as could be determined" wording, and doesn't give one any reassurance that the entire van is up to AS/NZS 3000/3001 standards.

http://postimg.org/image/2qpxdsr38/

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 798787

Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 14:07

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 14:07
I agree Ron, seems very dubious "an authorised person" that could mean anyone that has done a test & tag course but then they mention AS3001.

If it was me, and I was putting my family in there, then I would test it as if the Earth is not connected to the chassis and there was a fault then you may get a shock when entering / exiting the van.

cheers
1
FollowupID: 798789

Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 18:38

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 18:38
Cookie,
don't jump to conclusions there old mate, the electrician is a local contractor and as it is the brothers project I have no idea if he was paid in cheque or cash.

The engineer needs to sight details that the installation was carried out by a licenced electrician before he will finally pass the Motorhome.

When it comes to a caravan or Motorhome or any other mobile installation given the high vibrations I would have thought a mega test on completion and a compliance plate would/should have been mandatory given the lack of a suitable earth.

Cheers, Bruce.

At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 19:01

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 19:01
I am confused you specifically mentioned that he wouldn't give you a COC

"He virtually refused and said it was not necessary. We could not get him to oblige us so we have kept the receipt as that is the only proof we have of compliance."

I was trying to help you here - now I know not to bother Old Mate. I know of several tradesman that if they are paid in cash they don't issue a COC as there is no proof.

Well I guess that the Elctrical Engineer, made the assumption that he isn't a mechanical or civil engineer, will issue your COC - oh that's if he is licensed to do so as Electrical Engineers have to now do their Electrical Apprenticeships over here too now so most of the times we are expected to issue the COC.

cheers
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FollowupID: 798803

Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 20:22

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 20:22
Cookie,
I thank you for your help. If we have any trouble with theRMS approved Certifying Engineer not accepting the paperwork we do have re the 240 volt installation we will certainly take your advice and contact the Technical Regulator here in NSW.

Your comment
"you did see his licence didn't you. I bet you paid cash too"
seemed to me to be inferring we had taken the cheap option and and that we deserved what we got. Not very helpful when you jump to conclusions like that.

The electrician was informed why he was there and that his work was needed to be certified compliant for the Engineer to pass the overall project. His comment was that "a certificate was not necessary"

He was asked a couple of times and the answer remained the same. "The receipt for the work was sufficient."

Time will tell if that is the case. If it is not we will be back to him like a rat up the proverbial drain pipe.

Thanks again for your help Cookie.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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FollowupID: 798813

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:31

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:31
HI Bruce
I would suggest he is a Electrical contractor who business is limited to Domestic & possibly commercial work
HE probably is not even aware of AS/NZS 3001
"Elecrical INSTALLATIONS- Transportable Structures AND vehicles including their site supplies""
Perhaps ask him ???

Those STANDARDS apply throughout Aus !

But each state can determine what constitutes 'Electrical work " which can only be done by licensed ELECTRICIANS

The link I posted gives you NSW phone number [Fair trading}YOU can enquire there AS to what is realy required in your situation

VIc requires a certicicate of compliance prior to registration

BUT all work is required to be certified by a licensed ELECTRICAL contractor IN ALL states & IN MOST STATES carried out by licensed electricians,
with Vic being a strange one depending on who you get in their ESO

The licensed electrical contractor should indicate what has been tested AND THAT IT COMPLIES TO THE RELAVANT STANDARDS
IN your case BOTH AS3000 AND AS3001)!

PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798817

Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:51

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:51
Hi Peter,
That clarifies things a lot better and you are correct in that he would be dealing mainly with domestic and some commercial work.
You may also be on the money in that he may not be aware of AS/NZS 3001
"Elecrical INSTALLATIONS- Transportable Structures AND vehicles including their site supplies"

We do need the relevant certification for the final engineering inspection otherwise we will be knocked back, we presume.

In that case there will definitely be some rockets lit and headed in his specific direction. In that case we will be reading the relevant code to him, chapter and verse.

Thanks all for your input.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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FollowupID: 798822

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:56

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 22:56
HI Bruce
I would be very worried IF that local electrical contractor will not give you a compliance certificate for the work he did

THE wiring is Electrical work,
He performed it
HE SHALL give you a compliance certificate,stating that it complies to the Standards AS3000 & AS3001
AS others have said I think you will find the relevant section of NSW Fair Trading would be very interested in knowing about him!!!

The certifiying engineer has every right to demand it ,IF he is going to sign off on the WHOLE conversion


PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798823

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:10

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:10
Hi Ron
I do not believe it is mandatory for CP owners to check for a CURRENT compliance cert in any state in Aus @ this stage

There are moves afoot for a current compliance certificate to be supplied before registration &/or on renewal of lapsed registration & rego transfers similar to that which applies for a current GAs certicate


BUT
IT IS A MANDATORY REQUIREMENT IN NEW ZEALAND for a current electrical compliance certiicate to be produced to CPs etc!!
Current, I believe means no more than 12m old .
That Is the protection of the NEW ZEALAND system,
plus the mandatory inspection of ALL DIY "electrical work" BY AN AUTHORISED ELECTRICAL INSPECTOR.
NOT as simple as some make out
IT IS NOT JUST DO & THAT IS IT

PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798824

Reply By: Shaker - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 16:36

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 16:36
It appears that the only thing established so far, is that NZ allow idiots to play with 240 volts!

AnswerID: 518863

Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 17:27

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 17:27
Maybe Kiwis are smarter than Aussies as they have inspectors. If they are idiots then we must be dummies, because they have a lower electrocution rate.
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FollowupID: 798797

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 17:31

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 17:31
Maybe harder to be electrocuted with your feet in gumboots?
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Rockape - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 18:07

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 18:07
Allen,
funny you should say that. I picked up a new set of gumboots at our store and passing the sparkies workshop they were test their gloves. Being a cheeky bastard I said to the fella, how about testing these. He agreed and tested them. The result was they broke down at 17000 volts.

Lambzies wool works great as well, and we all know how Kiwis love their sheep.
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FollowupID: 798800

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:23

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:23
Quote Ron "This Jayco sticker is a bit of a cop-out, with the "as far as could be determined" wording, and doesn't give one any reassurance that the entire van is up to AS/NZS 3000/3001 standards.

http://postimg.org/image/2qpxdsr38/[end quote]

Hi Ron
Yes it is a copout
The reason beinh that VIC for some reson or other does not know if it is Arthur or Matha!!
Depending on who you talk to you get some wierd & contradictory answers
TO some, a van motor home etc is an APPLIANCE since it is connecred by a lead
As an applliance ,a factory worker ca fully wire the unit & connect ALL appliances
BUT the FINISHED unit must be tested by a licensed electrical contractor who SHALL issue a compliance certwith a copy to VIc ESO.
Vic ESO pass that on to VIV roads for rego
& no van etc is supposed to be registered without that certificate having gone through
But they have no problem with untrained monkeys doing the work as long as some electrician is prepare to sign off on it
NOw you see why the typical wording is 'As far as can be determined"
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FollowupID: 798826

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:32

Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 23:32
HI
oops something went wrong again & posted before I had finished

Now you see why the typical wording is "'As far as can be determined"

God only knowswhat has been done out of sight & now covered up!! but THAT does not seem to concern Vic ESO

But as an intersesting follow up, if that van is found to be defective /Non compliant after it leaves the workshop, VIC ESO is not interested in supporting any action by the owner

As far as VIc eso is concerned, THEY HAVE A COMPLIANCE CERT FOR WHEN IT LEFT THE FACTORY !!


PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798827

Reply By: Member - Nordave - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 10:57

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 10:57
People as happens a lot in all forums there is a huge amount of incorrect information written as fact here.
I am a registered electrican and I would like to address all those incorrect assumptions but unfortunately there are far to many.
One of the main ones is the assumption that electrical work can be done by any body and passed by an inspector in NZ.
If you readthe extract published near the beginning of this thread you notice it says in section one " on low voltage" people if you were electricans you would know this refers to voltages below 50 v ac and 110 v dc.
It is illegal in all of Australia to do any more than change a plug on a power lead or change a fuse on 240 v
And the same apples in NZ
AnswerID: 518891

Follow Up By: Member - Nordave - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 11:21

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 11:21
Edit. Should read extra low voltage and 120 v ,
1
FollowupID: 798837

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:11

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:11
And you will still have people like Oldtrac 123 who will maintain that even 'changing a plug or a 240v fuse' is best left to a Licenced electrician ...
0
FollowupID: 798839

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:39

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:39
HI
IF you make it clearer as to what is Extra low voltage?
And what is "LOW VOLTAGE" ,Everyone will know what YOU mean
!!!
BUt I do not think it will still be totally correct.!!
But since you claim to be an electrician, I'll see how you go.

AND it is not just me saying changing a plug or socket is "licensed ELECTRICAL woprk
THAT IS what is said in link AND applies in various states OF AUSTRALIA ,UNDER INDIVIDUAL STATE ELECTRICAL REGULATIONS!!

BUT as I posted earlier EACH state has it's OWN electrical Regulations
[NOT the AUS standards which are Australia wide]
ThoseREGULATIONS spell out what is considered LICENSED electrical work IN THAT STATE !!
You see it was ALSO for the benifit of even SOME "electricians"?, that I posted THAT link.

PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798841

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:00

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:00
HI Alloy c/t
Obviously you have a problem reading & understanding ,even the info in the link

Yet you believe you are competent enough to understand the REQs & complexities of the Standards & STATE regulations??

I THINK NOT!!

It is not just me saying changing a plug or socket is "licensed ELECTRICAL woprk
THAT IS what is said in link AND applies in various states OF AUSTRALIA ,UNDER INDIVIDUAL STATE ELECTRICAL REGULATIONS!!

BUT as I posted earlier EACH state has it's OWN electrical Regulations
[NOT the AUS standards which are Australia wide]
Those REGULATIONS spell out what is considered LICENSED electrical work IN THAT STATE !!
You see it was ALSO for the benifit of even SOME "electricians"?, that I posted THAT link.
Now ,just for your benifit , Limited licences are available after proof of competency to do minor electrical work [one does not need to be a fully qualified electrician}

Such "limited licences" can be isued to people like plumbers
Refrigeraton installer, appliance repairers etc , to do only such work as the LIMITED licence ISSUED to THEM [as an individual] allows

A fully qualified electrician is not required to test & tag, change plugs &/or sockets ,CONNECT, dissconect/ reconnect fixed wiring to a stove hw system, Air con, ETC
A person who has past the required EXAMINATION for those particular areas of work can be issued with a "LIMITED LICENSE allowing them to LEGALLY do such work!!

PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798842

Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 14:04

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 14:04
Definitions:
Voltage
? Extra low voltage means voltage that does not exceed 50 volts alternating current (50 V a.c.) or 120
volts ripple-free direct current (120 V ripple-free d.c.).

? Low voltage means voltage that exceeds extra-low voltage and does not exceed 1000 volts alternating
current (1000 V a.c.) or 1500 volts direct current (1500 V d.c.).

? High voltage means voltage that exceeds low voltage.

Reference........CODE OF PRACTICE | MANAGING ELECTRICAL RISKS IN THE WORKPLACE 2012
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FollowupID: 798846

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 14:54

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 14:54
HI Lyn
YES, you got it right ' AND this thread IS all about"LOW VOLTAGE"

Exceeding 50V AC but less than`1000V AC
or Exceeding
120V RIPPLE FREE DC but not exceeding 1500V RIPPLE FREE DC

IF the DC has a ripple component it is considered AC as far as electrical shock is concerned

PeterQ
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FollowupID: 798847

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