The new common rail diesels

Submitted: Saturday, Sep 28, 2013 at 17:54
ThreadID: 104510 Views:3341 Replies:3 FollowUps:9
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I didn't want to highjack Axles thread, but this is about the advancement and testing of the latest common rail truck engines and their longevity.

It is not about the injection system, common rail is here to stay. It is about the expected engine life before rebuild. The link is to the latest DD15 detroit engine, and I have used and like them.

You will note the B50 rating which is used as an indicator of engine life before rebuild. It means that 50% of engines will make the 1.6 million kilometres. The rating is for engines that will not exceed their full power rating for 80% of the time.

DD15 expected engine life

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Reply By: olcoolone - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 09:13

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 09:13
The other contributing factor in longer engine life is better material and surface treatment, better thermal loading, better design and better lubricants.

As you say "CRD are here to stay" and eventually most will have to get a CRD engined vehicle if they want a diesel....... or drive around in a 30+ year old dinosaur.

CRD vehicles are just as reliable as no CRD and in some cases more reliable..... just that some get scared by how they work and the old "but if something happened" syndrome.

CRD has been around since the late 90's.

Most bad comments are made by people who have never had anything to do with them or think and worry about things that will never happen.

People forget how many non CRD vehicles have been stuck on the side of the road going nowhere quickly.

Times are changing and some just need to get use to it.

When you think of it your Ranger puts out nearly double the HP and a lot more torque in a smaller capacity with less cylinders reliably with better economy than a larger engine 20-25 years ago.

BTW Series 60's made use a lot of money in the earlier ones....... with things breaking and falling off through vibration and harmonics.
AnswerID: 518885

Follow Up By: Road Warrior - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:41

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:41
I think definitely the materials used in the engine itself is a huge factor. The diesel engine in our Territory is often bagged as a "hand me down" from Land Rover, but with a Compacted Graphite Iron engine block, 6 bolt mains and a forged steel crank, I don't think longevity will be an issue.
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 18:44

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 18:44
Power wasn't a big deal years ago because people bought a 4WD to use as a 4WD and didn't expect it to drive like a car which is the opposite of what people want these days they expect a 2 ton vehicle to perform like a car. With all of the electronic stuff in cars now days they should have better power and fuel economy. But I thought it interesting that my 1993 4.2ltr turbo diesel GQ converted to a twin cab with extended chassis weighing around 2.4ton with over 400,000 km uses 2lts of fuel per cylinder 12Lph and my neighbours 2006 BT50 uses 2.5 lts per cylinder 10Lph I'm just looking at it from another angle of litres used per cylinder which nost people don't look at.
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 18:55

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 18:55
It depends on how big the cylinder is?
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 11:07

Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 11:07
If that's true then I'll stick with the bigger motors because the bigger the cylinder the less fuel it will burn
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Reply By: Graeme - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 09:41

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 09:41
This is a modern day take on a previously used, but un reliable aircraft engine feature. It was the turbo geared directly to the crankshaft in the Wright 3350 Turbo Compound Radial aircraft engine (3400 HP) used on the Lockheed Super Constellation.
They were noted for their unreliability due to the fact they were before their time with regards to the materials and technology of that era.
With the features on this DD15 being now on the cutting edge of modern diesel technology it will in time filter down to ordinary cars, with the expected increase in longevity and reliability, and even one day into smaller aircraft I dare say.
I am old enough to remember when cars which had clocked up 50,000 miles (approx 110,000 KM) were burning oil and needing an overhaul and with modern cars just run in.
The first turbine engines in aircraft had their life measured in hundreds of hours and then 4-5000 was considered exceptional, to now it is 30-40,000 hours plus without being removed from the wing.
All of this is only possible because of computer control of the vital parameters to prevent any out of tolerance of temps and pressures.
I never thought I would see the day when you tell the computer what you would like done and then you will be told what the computer will allow you. (Simply the accelerator of your modern cars; it is a computer input and is not connected to anything else. Even more so the pilot of a modern day airliner where the throttles, brakes and flight controls are via a computer.)
Regarding aircraft, I am happy working on an older one, which at the moment is a mass of cables disconnected due the amount of things removed, or about to be removed, or have been refitted after inspection.
AnswerID: 518888

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 11:43

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 11:43
Quote - "I am old enough to remember when cars which had clocked up 50,000 miles (approx 110,000 KM) were burning oil and needing an overhaul and with modern cars just run in." - end Quote ..

Graeme - In fairness to the older engines, the cars and trucks of the 1940's and 1950's had to put up with vast amounts of dirt roads and the accompanying clouds of dust, and the relatively poor filtering and sealing.
There have been big advances in road and highway conditions, as well as filtering quality and seal quality. I guess you haven't forgotten that a lot of lip seals in this era still used leather in the seal lip!?

In addition, maintenance was poor in this era, because many vehicle owners had little understanding of maintenance requirements.

As a final feature, oil quality and oil additives have reached heights that the old vehicle designers could only dream about.
It's said that engine design is limited by the oil quality available - and it's only advances in oil capabilities that have enabled modern engines to produce the power they do, from the smaller displacements of today.

I reckon if I bought a new FJ Holden today, I could easily get 200,000kms out of the engine without the need for overhaul, with todays fantastic sealed roads, and improved oils and filtering.

One things for sure - you couldn't beat the starting ability of a grey Holden engine!
Even with crook plugs, an out-of-tune carby, and worn rings, you still only need to get her over compression twice, and she'd fire right up - even on that dreadful 6 volts!!

I'd like to see a modern engine with a corroded wiring harness and an ECM with dirty contacts, do that! LOL
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Follow Up By: Road Warrior - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:38

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:38
I think the better machining and manufacturing tolerances in modern engines has a lot to do with it as well.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 16:22

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 16:22
QUOTE"I'd like to see a modern engine with a corroded wiring harness and an ECM with dirty contacts, do that! LOL"

And I would like to see a FJ with a bugged coil or stuffed carby........

Out of the whole scheme of things we see a very low percentage of vehicles come through our workshop with corroded harnesses and ECM's with dirty contacts....... most are caused by people fiddling.

I probably see less problems with newer vehicles then I did back in the 80's.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 21:13

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 21:13
LoLLOL LOL LOl LOl LOl LOL LOl,........Good one Ron!!, The old grey Holden engine and its starting ability?...Yep it could be totally stuffed and still start,......But that's all the bastard would do!!!,what ever it was fitted to,put it in gear and try to move off you would go no where it would stall a million times, ......Nope! the best starting engine when it was completely knackered and would still pull its own weight up hill and down dale hot or cold was the slant six valiant motor , No contest!

Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Ron N - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:17

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 12:17
Rockape - I dunno about anyone else, but I'd be disappointed if I bought a new heavy duty diesel truck today and I couldn't get at least 1.6M Kms out the engine before overhaul.

Does DD's "B50 rating" mean that 50% of their engines will blow up before they even get halfway thorough their projected lifespan?? Doesn't sound like anything to brag about, to me.

I've seen numerous KT450 Cummins in KW's with 2.5M kms on the clock and they were still completely original, and they still ran like clockwork! - and the KT450's don't have CR injection, turbo-compounding, complex electronics, and EGR!

It seems that all the DD engine owners I speak to, reckon 800,000kms is the overhaul life of the 60 series - and they're happy with that, because they only cost $30K to rebuild!
Sounds to me, like DD have never aimed for anything else but the cheap end of the truck market.

I'll wager that the current crop of engines that are producing vast amounts of HP from small capacities will never reach the engine lifespan of any of the older, less stressed engines.
Typical of this scenario is the 4.2L TD42 Nissan diesel - they commonly get to 400,000 kms before overhaul - yet the 3.0L ZD30 rarely seems to reach 250,000kms before they're in serious need of overhaul - and you only need an electronic part failure to reduce engine life and performance.
Oxygen sensors getting coated with oil fumes are a classic failure in modern engine design - and God help you, if even the smallest miniscule "foreign body" in the shape of a micron-size piece of dirt, enters a CR injection system - you'l be up for serious $$$'s in overhaul costs, if that happens.

I can recall my brother running his HJ61 on a mixture of engine oil and lighting kero when we ran out of diesel supplies. The old 12HT wasn't bothered in the least by the mixture and ran happily on it for about 2000kms.

Try that with a CR system and you'd find the ECM would shut the whole engine down because set viscosity parameters weren't being met - or the injection system would suffer serious damage, because the fuel didn't meet the manufacturers exceptionally tight specifications.

Caterpillar have two terms to describe engine design - high tolerance design, and low tolerance design.
High tolerance engines have the ability to tolerate wide variations in settings, fuel types, clearances, operating conditions, and general abuse.
Low tolerance engines have NO ability to tolerate even slight variations in settings, fuel types, clearances, operating conditions, and general abuse.

I know what category the modern, high-tech, CR injection, electronic engines fall into!
AnswerID: 518897

Follow Up By: Rockape - Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:07

Sunday, Sep 29, 2013 at 13:07
I don't believe blowing up was mentioned. It was 50% will need a rebuild before 1.6 million K and 50% will go to 1.6 million K and beyond.

I have heard all the never touched big K stories and I have also seen 2 Ci5 cat engines with only 1 weeks use, put big holes in their sumps. Early 60's had problems and so did Signatures until they were ironed out.

I don't wish to get into a discussion on cat, cummins, detroit or any other engine. I will post a link to the expected life of Heavy engines their. The life is gauged on if you replace any internal parts of the engine. So this would even include an inframe rebuild.

I wonder how these late model engines are getting big K's then. One of the most abusive operating conditions are in underground mines, where they are pulling max loads up 1 in 6 and 1 in 7 grades 24 hours a day in dusty, corrosive and damp conditions all rolled up in one.

Expected engine life

FollowupID: 798843

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