lawyer required

Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 14:17
ThreadID: 104555 Views:3870 Replies:15 FollowUps:29
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Does anyone know a good lawyer that deals with defective accessories fitted to a vehicle. ARB refuse to speak to me about my ever failing difflocks that once again need to be replaced, the car has only done 18,000 kms and needs the front diff doing again, i intend to get the car turned over to them for a refund as ive lost all faith in it's reliability
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Reply By: Member-George (WA) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 14:31

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 14:31
Hi liftnlock lux, there are 2 types of lawyers, cheap ones (tongue in cheek, no cheap ones around) and very, very expensive ones. You will have to make sure that the cost of a lawyer is justified by the value of you grievance. Why not try Consumers Affairs first. Good luck
AnswerID: 519008

Reply By: get outmore - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:00

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:00
You shouldnt need a lawyer.
Australian consumer law is pretty clear about manafacturers. Statuary and implied warranty.
Get online and get the exact acts and quote them to them in your letter of demand keeping in mind it also details the sellers limit of responsibility. If no joy then you can go to consumer affairs.
HOWEVER if you are refusing thier offers of repair or replacement you could find yourself out of luck they have no obligation to refund you although the product does have to be fit for purpose
AnswerID: 519011

Follow Up By: Member - liftnlock lux - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:44

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:44
I havn't refused repair and this is the 5th diff going in (17990kms from brand new).I was around the mrchison on the weekend about 130kms from base when it went for the 5th time (blew before i got to do any 4wd'ing) and i nave lost faith in it,s ability to get me anywhere except on the bitumen. Im advising Toyota of the problems with ARB lockers as ive had a few calls today from people with the same issues. I will seek the difference in trade in prices on a new hilux and am dealing with consumer affairs. $66,000 later and i have a vehicle that cant go off road for fear of not getting back
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Reply By: Racey - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:37

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:37
What reason have given for refusing your claim?
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Follow Up By: Member - liftnlock lux - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:33

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:33
Hi. They aren't refusing to fix it and are happy to keep doing repairs but after 5 failures and 5 canceled holidays would you be happy for them to just keep replacing the diffs every 3,500kms on your brand new car?????and even if they do who wants that sort of unreliability in a car 14 months old(diffs from brand new) that goes offf road. Take a look at you-tube ARB lockers and you will see a tale of toughness,reliability,durability at the flick of a switch. The product has left me with a car that isn't any of the above and far from it, if they remove the diffs and I get problems later down the track then they wont have to fix them and it will all be up to me to foot the bill. I now have no warranty on my diffs and a continuing failing locker set up that constantly needs replacing due to oil leaks,air leaks and other problems. ARB can't say to me "its all fixed and you wont have any more problems"cause that's what they said the last few times and here we are again with the car on jacks in the repair shop diff number 5. Toyota are going to deal with them and ill take them to court as per consumer protections advice.Watch this space.Cheers
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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:45

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:45
Agree. Go and have a chat with consumer affairs. Take all the paperwork, including receipts, reports and letters and emails (both sent and received), with you. Any notes of conversations may also be helpfull. Get your story straight and don't leave anything out.

Sorry for appearing to be telling you the riot act but the more evidence you have that shows they are at fault the better.

I hope that you didn't get anyone other than the suppliers to touch it. Maybe to give you a report may be fine but no work or repairs and definitely home mechanic at all. No matter who they are.

The slightest sign of any non supplier endorsed work being done on them may void any warranty. Even any service on the front axles or bearings that was not done by a manufacturer endorsed person or shop can stuff things up.

Be prepared. I just say this as a bit of preparedness.

Best of luck.

Phil
AnswerID: 519016

Follow Up By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:09

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:09
I just read your response to get_outmore. Looks lke you are doing the right things.

No need to respond to my post.

Best of luck mate.

Phil
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Reply By: John and Regina M - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:48

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 15:48
So you have exhausted the 'talk to them' options?

AnswerID: 519017

Follow Up By: Member - liftnlock lux - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:39

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:39
Hi John
they are good listeners and have no problems repairing the car but they are either poor mechanics or their product isn't so good and only lasts for 3500kms
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Reply By: Chris (Qld) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:32

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:32
Why or what is faiiling in the diff? you say that at one stage the diff failed before you even got to go four wheel driving, if thats the case the diff lock would have nothing to do with it as when it is not locked it is just operating as a normal diff.
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AnswerID: 519018

Reply By: Skulldug - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:43

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 16:43
Lift lock,

Some time ago there was a post on 4x4 Earth titled "Why would anyone want to fit an ARB locker?" The guy was pretty upset that ARB hadn't responded to his problem. I believe he also had a Toyota. Anyway, a fellow from ARB came in on the discussion and from memory, got it all sorted.

His name was Cass from 4x4 Accessories Head Office. His username was ARB 4x4.

It may be worth trying to track him down.

While we are on the topic, Mr Toyota may be the problem?

Best of luck with it.

Skull
AnswerID: 519021

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:15

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:15
Cass as in Cassandra, he's actually a she :)

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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:22

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:22
Although I suspect even if it was a Mr Toyota problem they will point to an after market part voiding the warranty on that particular part...

The problem of fitting no genuine parts on new vehicles under warranty...gets messy when situations like this arise.
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Follow Up By: cookie1 - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:11

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:11
I think ARB HQ in Kilsyth have visibility in the 4x4 Earth Forum http://www.4x4earth.com.au/forum/
as there was a Sam from Head Office who got involved in another issue and I think they sorted it out pretty quickly.

I reckon a quick post on there outlining your issues and you may well get a positive result without incurring further costs. I have had confidence issues with things but then when they are fixed properly you start enjoying your purchase and the good times eventually cloud over the bad.

Personally I have had issues but it related more to the person doing the actual work than the product itself.

hope it all pans out well for you

cheers
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Reply By: 213 - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:35

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 17:35
I am a lawyer - retired a few years ago.

If you do need a lawyer a good place to go for initial advice is the Law Society in your State. They will (should) have some note of solicitors that practice in - and are therefore particularly knowledgeable of - consumer law.

Whilst you are talking to them ask them the current cap for consumer law related actions in your State's Magistrates Court Small Claims Jurisdiction.

It could be that when you firm up the quantum of your damages, you will be below that cap figure and can run the action yourself in that Court.

It is specifically set up for claimants (plaintiffs) to represent themselves and solicitors are only allowed to repesent either party if both parties agree. The Magistrates that sit in these Courts are very very experienced in running actions with inexperienced (self representing) claimants - it's what they choose to do and are extremely helpful to the parties.

Very often of course, recalcitrant vendors (ARB in your case) suddenly become much more amenable and reasonable when the provisions of Schedule 2 of the COMPETITION AND CONSUMER ACT 2010 is waived in their face!

Best of luck - and don't give up!!

George
AnswerID: 519027

Follow Up By: Rockape - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 19:59

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 19:59
George,
what a good answer to the original question.
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Follow Up By: Echucan Bob - Friday, Oct 04, 2013 at 14:10

Friday, Oct 04, 2013 at 14:10
Whats the difference between a rooster and a lawyer?

When the rooster wakes up in the morning its first instinct is to cluck defiance!

:-)
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FollowupID: 799200

Reply By: KevinE - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 19:22

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 19:22
G'day mate,

Are you sure that you're dealing with ARB direct?

I had an accessory fitted by someone who had an "ARB" sign up outside their business; the fitting was terrible & the service was worse!

When it became apparent that the said item was not fitted correctly & was subsequently falling apart, I stayed calm, remained as meek as I could & more or less begged for them to fix the problems they had caused fitting it, the owner of this business, who took over $2,300 off me, treated me like I was an annoyance & basically made it as hard as he could for me to get the problem fixed!

I wrote a letter of complaint to ARB & they were spectacular! The state manager where I live made a special effort to ensure that everything was fixed promptly & when he got to see my vehicle, he even pointed out failings in the fitting that I had not previously seen.

I cannot thank ARB enough for the way that my complaint was swiftly dealt with! Especially the state manager here!

If you're going to buy something off ARB, make sure that you are dealing with ARB, not someone who just happens to sell 4WD accessories & hangs an ARB sign out the front of their business!

If anyone from ARB is reading this; please take note that allowing non ARB businesses to display your sign at their outlet is damaging your brand!
AnswerID: 519032

Follow Up By: Member - liftnlock lux - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:50

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:50
Hi Kev
unfortunately its ARB WA state office and the bloke in charge is good but his diff lockers aren't worth a pinch of s*&t.They dealt with the problem on all the previous occasions but what's worrying is just how many more occasions am i going to have and i'll never trust the vehicle again....Time to trade it in
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FollowupID: 799017

Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:55

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:55
Why would you blame the vehicle for an after market accessory that you elected to have fitted?

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FollowupID: 799033

Follow Up By: 944runner - Thursday, Oct 03, 2013 at 08:52

Thursday, Oct 03, 2013 at 08:52
I have to agree, why trade the vehicle... that's not at fault here. If the locker is causing so many issues why not just take it out. It will still be a capable 4WD. Obviously it would be better to have the locker but if its cause you to miss 5 holidays and that much stress just get rid of it!!!!!
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FollowupID: 799088

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 21:53

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 21:53
You hear about a fair amount of problems with ARB diff locks but not many about e lockers. Much more simple I guess. Michael
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:00

Tuesday, Oct 01, 2013 at 22:00
Actually consumer law says you are entitled to a repair replacement or a refund. It's very clear and if you haven't had satisfaction after 5 repairs, then you should ask for a refund. I recently had a win with Dick Smith over a HP laptop that was out of warranty. Your situation would be still under warranty. Tell them it's in acceptable and you want a refund! Michael
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 01:58

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 01:58
You need to actually know your consumer law if your going to quote it
Its the vendor decision to repair replace or refund....... not yours
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 02:00

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 02:00
Should ad it seems theve elected to repair which is within consumer law
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 02:06

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 02:06
And to further ad you mention va computer out if warranty but you don't mention which warranty
All goods sold in australia are covered by a manafacturers warranty but also by a statuary warranty meaning the product should last for the time it was intended too a conputer should easily be expected to last 2years and longer for an exoensive one
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 06:12

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 06:12
The statement I made was basically after 5 times in the workshop and after all those repairs and still not suitable for it's intended purpose, he should be entitled to a refund. It's obvious that if it's a first time repair, you wouldn't get a refund. What do you think should happen now? My sons computer was 14 months old with a 12 months warranty. I personally think a computer should last at least three years but DSE didn't want anything to do with it, HP told me to run along and it was a fight. FairTrading said they would back me if I got nowhere but persistence is the key! Took me 6 months to get it fixed. New motherboard and new hard drive and reloaded like new.
Michael
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Follow Up By: ljsroslyn - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 08:22

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 08:22
Sorry for your woes and I know how it feels. I recently had a new vehicle that had many minor issues with it and then a major fail all within 6 months of owning it and under 10,000kms. On repair of that fail the vehicle was never the same. After 2yrs and 4mths of discussions, arguing, letters, emails and contacting consumer affairs (who backed me 100%) I had my vehicle replaced for the full value of its original price - I was very lucky but you can win if you keep persisting.

The one thing that I learnt was that you must keep going, get consumer affairs to act on your behalf and my understanding of this is that you should expect a repair, replacement or refund and it is your choice. I was lucky my consumer affairs officer was fantastic and fully supportive and worked really hard for me. Keep going and make sure you have all of your paperwork and put it all in writing.

Good luck
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:14

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:14
Getoutmore is wrong Michael is right - it is the buyers choice not the vendors.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 15:25

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 15:25
The vendor has the choice.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 16:54

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 16:54
Not so.

Different product but ACCC ruling on vendor deciding actions - and other issues.

ACCC - HP
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 21:07

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 21:07
I believe it to be the buyers choice but to be reasonable most people would be happy for any of the three options if it was a positive outcome. But after the first time you would probably demand a refund or a replacement if the product is usually a known quality product. Michael.
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 09:55

Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 09:55
well heres the policy on it

all depends on your definition of Major and Minor although Major issues is defined

http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 17:04

Sunday, Oct 06, 2013 at 17:04
Common sense thinking would be if the diff had a slow leak through a damaged gasket or a stripped diff drain plug, I would say that is minor, pulling the diff out for the fifth time because it failed when it was installed to get you out of a situation, the prime and only purpose of the product, I would say that is major! Michael.
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Follow Up By: brad1972 - Monday, Oct 07, 2013 at 12:47

Monday, Oct 07, 2013 at 12:47
get outmore, actually you may need to read the consumer law a liitle more, the decision is not always theirs to repair or replace. Depends on how long you have had it since purchase.
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Reply By: Penchy - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 07:35

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 07:35
Was the original install done by ARB? Do you have all receipts/proof of purchase? If so that will help.

Might need to change your name to "liftnnotlocked lux"
AnswerID: 519047

Follow Up By: Member - liftnlock lux - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 08:15

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 08:15
Hi yeh all done by ARB but even when they fix it i still wont trust it. to get a refund leaves me with two holes in the diff housing and no warranty on the axle/diff components. This is why i'm trading it in and taking arb to court as per consumer protections advice
Cheers Liftnnolockers I think ill be changing it to capablecruiser hahaha
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 19:21

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 19:21
Wise move. You don't need a lawyer. I think you've taken the right approach in deciding to move on from this vehicle. You won't ever feel good about it. Get it fixed and trade it and buy something else then get on with enjoying your hobby. That's what I did when in a similar situation in the past, and never looked back.
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FollowupID: 799066

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Oct 08, 2013 at 00:24

Tuesday, Oct 08, 2013 at 00:24
I had a current generation Hilux with an ARB air locker and apart from one problem got 160,000 trouble free K's out of it.
They can and do work well, don't know what has happened in your situation though

Good luck with it
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FollowupID: 799430

Reply By: 213 - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 10:33

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 10:33
Just to clarify, the paragraph below is reproduced from the ACCC website. It's important to understand the actual PROVISIONS and not be sidelined by what people 'think' or 'believe' the Act provides...

Repair, replacement or refund

If you have a MINOR problem with a product or service, the business can choose to give you a free repair instead of a replacement or refund. When you have a MAJOR problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund. For a MAJOR problem with a service, you can choose to receive compensation for the drop in value below the price paid, or a refund.


My emphasis

So...decide whether you have a MAJOR or MINOR problem then craft your claim accordingly

George



AnswerID: 519051

Follow Up By: 213 - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 16:28

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 16:28
I won't post again but thought you may be asking yourself: "what the devil is a MAJOR problem"...this is the Act's definition:


260 When a failure to comply with a guarantee is a major failure

A failure to comply with a guarantee referred to in
section 259(1)(b) that applies to a supply of goods is a major
failure if:
(a) the goods would not have been acquired by a reasonable
consumer fully acquainted with the nature and extent of the
failure; or
(b) the goods depart in one or more significant respects:
(i) if they were supplied by description—from that
description; or
(ii) if they were supplied by reference to a sample or
demonstration model—from that sample or
demonstration model; or
(c) the goods are substantially unfit for a purpose for which
goods of the same kind are commonly supplied and they
cannot, easily and within a reasonable time, be remedied to
make them fit for such a purpose; or
(d) the goods are unfit for a disclosed purpose that was made
known to:
(i) the supplier of the goods; or
(ii) a person by whom any prior negotiations or
arrangements in relation to the acquisition of the goods
were conducted or made;and they cannot, easily and within a reasonable time, be
remedied to make them fit for such a purpose; or
(e) the goods are not of acceptable quality because they are
unsafe.


Seems like you have a MAJOR problem at first blush...

R

George
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FollowupID: 799049

Reply By: Herbal - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:08

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:08
I don't see that anyone has mentioned it...

Schedual 2 (and 1) are contained in Volume 3 of the Act.

You can download a copy of all 3 volumes from here - http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011C00003/Download
AnswerID: 519056

Reply By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 13:58

Wednesday, Oct 02, 2013 at 13:58
There are two reasons why a diff would fail 5 times, drive or the person installing it.

There are many Hiluxs fitted with a front diff lock fitted and supplied by ARB so I would doubt it's a fault in design or manufacturing..

I would suggest speaking to an forensic automotive engineer, try Robert on 0419516439.

http://www.automotiveexpertwitness.com.au/
AnswerID: 519060

Reply By: howesy - Saturday, Oct 05, 2013 at 13:37

Saturday, Oct 05, 2013 at 13:37
You can seek compensation for down time of your vehicle and inconvenience and missed business opportunities ets as a result of it being off the road and all these things (and more) may add up to the difference between your trade in price and the purchase of a new vehicle but it will take money and time to do that with no guarantee of results and as far as laiming the difference itself (buckleys) best you can hope for is the previously mentioned compo plus removal and refund of the product along with repair. I would rip em out get a refund and without them in there there should be no issues. Cut your losses and run
AnswerID: 519213

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