Waterless coolant

Submitted: Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 18:27
ThreadID: 104696 Views:3176 Replies:8 FollowUps:14
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OK was watching tv today and the show wheelers dealers and they used this product

Has any one used it and what do you think

I have found some posts about this and as usual some reports are saying it is not as good as it has been reported

some say it is thicker than water and may not help in cars that all ready have heating problems

I am off to Adelaide in few weeks for medical reasons and my car tends to get a bit hot in bumper to bumper traffic as soon as I get moving I am ok my last appointment is 4:30 and I was planning to drive back to broken hill

I was planning on cleaning the system in the next few days and replacing the fluid

any tips or suggestions I have a magna wagon 4cyl 280k

thank you for your input

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Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:04

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:04
allien m
If your Magna gets a bit hot in traffic it could be the thermo fan isn't cutting in as it should. In traffic it shouldn't overheat, Magna cooling is usually quite good.
With country use the fan often never runs and it seizes up and blows it's fuse so then it doesn't run at all.
Make sure it spins free and idle the car until it heats to cut in temp to check it all works properly for town use.
Maybe the water pump, Does yours have the outrigger thingo pump on the RHS of the engine head? They corrode inside and are belt driven, could be it slips a bit and water flow is slow or it's fins are eaten away and not much water is pumped at slow engine speeds.

Normal additive and water provides the best transfer of heat and it also absorb the most heat value before a boiling point is reached.
I would stick with the known rather than begin to entertain the unknown.

Ross M
AnswerID: 519603

Follow Up By: Herbal - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:32

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:32
Allien, as Ross has said !!

The Magna is a great car. After owning a sigma some years ago I swore I would never own another Mits... But I now have a TF V6 Magna...and I now swear I am a Mits man !!!

Magnas don't have hissy fits and stop working like some other cars will...If it has a cough, it is telling you that it has a cold coming on. So get it looked at.

As for the waterless stuff... Yeah it is good... If you need to be doing 320kph for 50 laps at Bathurst and your engine is just a "part" that can be replaced at the end of the race !!!

FollowupID: 799766

Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:13

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:13
Allein - I've never heard of the product and never used it. I checked out their website and they brag about their product being good for 190 deg C without boiling! I don't see where that's any major benefit.
An engine is stuffed if it reaches around 135-140 deg C. At that temperature rings start to soften and loose their tension, oil starts to lose it's ability to lubricate, and seals and gaskets become burnt and hardened and start to leak.

I note the waterless coolant site says an engine will run 3 -7 deg hotter with their product in the cooling system. If your cooling system is already marginal due to corrosion and scale and reduced coolant flow, then an additional 3 to 7 degrees could see internal engine temperatures rise to a dangerous level.

In my experience, I've found that it's crucial to use the manufacturers recommended ready-made coolant or rust inhibitor mixed in the right proportions with distilled water or rainwater.
Using "off-the-shelf" coolants and inhibitors means that they may not contain the correct chemicals that match the materials used in your engine block and head. The OEM coolant and inhibitor is tailored to your engine and provides the best protection against corrosion.
Cooling system corrosion is not caused only caused by water (rust and scale), it's also caused by galvanic action between dissimilar metals (electrolysis between alloys and cast iron).

It also pays to drain and flush and replace the coolant in your system in line with the manufacturers recommendations - usually every 2 or 3 yrs. This provides top-class protection for your cooling system on an on-going basis.

If your cooling system has been "let go" and corrosion has started, it's imperative to do a chemical clean and flush promptly and add all new coolant/inhibitor.
About 60-70% of engine problems and vehicle breakdowns can be sheeted directly home to poor cooling system maintenance.

If I'm buying a used vehicle and I unscrew the cooling system filler cap and can see corrosion, I walk away from that vehicle.
Another good indicator of potential problems is a buildup of white gunk at the point where hoses join the metal fittings such as water pump and heater hose outlets.
With modern engines containing large amounts of alloy it's critical that cooling systems be maintained fastidiously on todays cars.
AnswerID: 519605

Follow Up By: allein m - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:29

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:29
the car does have 2 electric fan i know they work I will give the system and a good clean in the next week or so if it is hot in adelaide I will pull over and wait till the main north road is freeded up and head off back to broken hill

it works fine here but when I am caught up in bumber to bumper traffic it starts to get a bit hot as soon as I start to move more it cools down very quick

thanks for the replys
FollowupID: 799765

Follow Up By: Herbal - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:47

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:47
As Ron says...

You really think you will get from Adelaide to Broken Hill when you have something wrong with your cooling system???

It might be something simple like a radiator cap (recovery cap). But even at worst a whole new radiator is $300 to $400....and if you don't have that sort of cash available, then you should not be driving that far !!

I would rather read about you here on the forum than read about you in a newspaper... Get the thing looked at !!
FollowupID: 799768

Reply By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:49

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 19:49
Like so many of these exotic products they are of no benifit unless you are doing weird things or the system is specfically designed for them.

One of the issues with modern cooling systems is that people do not.
Replace their coolant regularly enough
Run the correct coolant
run the correct concentration.

Most of our systems are designed to run one of two types of coolant....red or green.

Both must be replaced more regularly than most people want to know.....2 years at the outside 3.....if the coolant is stale it wont perform as well and it will become corrosive as its corrosion inhibiter is spent.

Both have to be run at the recommended rate and for a lot of japanese derived vehicles that is twice the standard dose on the bottle.

The coolant increases the boiling point of the coolling system and thus the temperature difference to the outside air and thus the efficiency is improved.

The boiling point is increased by both the coolant concentration and the preasurisation....in about equal proportion.

Many of these systems are designed around this increased boiling point.

many toyotas in particular will boil their little heads off with only slight provocation, if you run straight water in them and will not perform well with the "standard" dose of coolant.

It does not hurt to run the double dose of coolant in any case.

If you look on the Nulon coolant bottle for example, it will list boiling points for the standard dose and the double dose of coolant.

OH and BTW..look up the coolant capacity of the cooling system and add the correct amount of neat coolant..THEN top up with clean demineralised water.

because many cooling systems are very hard to drain completely....and this can bake the coolant dose wrong if you premix.

Go the manufacturer recommended coolant type and at the corrdct dose

AnswerID: 519608

Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 20:39

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 20:39
Bantam - You're right on every point there. Few people understand how hot current engines run.
Thermostats went from 82 deg C (180 deg F) to 88 deg C (190 deg F) when tighter emission controls were introduced in the 1980's.
This increases engine efficiency, but runs engines closer to the edge of destruction.

A cap pressurisation of 14 psi (98 kPa) allows a cooling system to run to 120 deg C (248 deg F) without boiling.
Many Jap engines run at around 100 deg C fairly constantly under regular conditions - but heavy towing, highway speeds, and hot days, can see that figure go to 110 or 115 deg C.
That means a fine line between a hard-working engine and one that's cooked itself.

I've found that genuine Toyota cooling system additive works superbly in Toyota engines at about 40% concentration with pure rainwater or distilled water.

What is also very important is to carry some premixed coolant for top-up.
Topping up with plain water merely dilutes the coolant and starts corrosion.
If you top up with tap water, you might as well top up with battery acid, such is the poor quality of most tap water.
FollowupID: 799770

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:01

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:01
The ideal operating temp of a gasoline engine is around the 98-101 deg C mark, most current high performance motorbike engines run up to 110 Deg C...... my sports bike fluctuates between 94 -106 but will go as low as 76 on cold days riding slowly..

Modern technology, better thermal control and material can make these engine run safely and reliably at these temps all day.

Ron, you made mention of the fine line between a hard working engine and a cooked engine........ that line isn't as close as you think.

F1 engines run at 125-130 deg C.

Years ago we only had to carry one type of coolant, now we carry five.

FollowupID: 799773

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:54

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:54
Saying the running tap water is like battery acid is a bit of an overstatement.

But running tap water is a waste off good coolant.

If the water used is high in minerals or is not PH neutral a lot of the buffering capacity of the coolant will be spent from the get go.

One of the functions of coolant is to maintain the coolant at an approriate PH level. The PH buffer does that......but in time that buffer is spent.

The cleaner and more neutral the water the better the coolant will last.

Persoanlly I would not use rainwater, because it may contain metal compounds from the roof, gutter, pipes and tank and may be a little acidic....all ran water is slightly acidic not just due to polution.

Bottled demineralised water is the go and a cheap investment compared to the cost of coolant.

As far as the temperature that actually prevails is concerned.....different parts of the cooling system run at different temperatures.....the bottom of the radiator will be a hell of a lot cooler than the top, different parts of the block will be considerably hotter that at the thermostat housing where the temperature is mostly measured.

So having a coolant that is well a truly within its boiling point is an important thing.

I have see first had a couple of times where incorrect coolant has made a vehicle play up when there is not a thing wrong with it otherwise.

I know of one case where a mate of mine complained that his hiace was boiling its little head of with even moderate exertion.
He had just flushed the cooling system and had not bothered putting coolant back.....the correct dose of coolant and it pulled the Cunningham's Gap range fully loaded towing a trailer in the heat of summer....temp guage sitting only a little above normal and with no miss-behaviour.

FollowupID: 799775

Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:42

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:42
Olcoolone - I don't think bringing F1 engines into the equation is a fair comparison.
F1 engines use technology that is cutting edge, and which is far removed from the everyday engines we buy - and more importantly, F1 engines have a life of about 1000kms - if they're lucky!

Air-cooled engines always run much hotter than water-cooled engines because they don't have the luxury of the major heat-soaking effect of liquid coolant. In fact, on a stinking hot day, if you do a lot of slow work with your bike, you'll find the operating temperature will soar because of a lack of air flow.

I owned a '64 V8 Deutz truck from '67 to '75 (air cooled, of course). It was a great rig, powerful, reliable and great to drive. However, it used technology that was specific to air-cooled motor requirements, such as alloys that could withstand much greater heat than ordinary engine metals.

The bolts that held the heads and cylinders down were made of some incredible manganese/molybdenum/chrome/nickel alloy that made forklift tynes look like mild steel.
You could twist those bolts about 7/8 of a turn without any fear of permanent twist or stretch.

The biggest concern with the Deutz engines was oil temperature. On a stinking hot day and working hard with a heavy load, it was easy enough to get the Deutz hot enough, that the oil started to break down and lose it's hydrodynamic lubrication abilities.

The engine had a warning buzzer and light that came on when the oil temperature reached 257 deg F (125 deg C).
However, Deutz stated that the heads could run at 338 deg F (170 deg C without any problems. That's hot!

FollowupID: 799787

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:08

Sunday, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:08
Most of the technology and design used in F1 engines over the years have filtered down to everyday engines.

In that case it's wrong to talk about Deutz engines as they are air cooled (except for later versions) and don't use coolant!

The other problem with Deutz engines was when they would throw a belt....... luckily they had a switch that would shut the engine down if it happened.

BTW hydrodynamics is the study of liquids in motion, nothing to do with properties or the ability of a fluid...... same as thermodynamics; the study of temperature (heat) and energy.

FollowupID: 799802

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:09

Sunday, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:09
Hydrodynamic lubrication refers to the pumping action of the bearing surfaces in maintaining the oil film that keeps bearing surfaces separated.

Thinning of the lube oil by excessive heat - as in when an engine overheats - leads to the breakdown of the oil film, and the breakdown of the hydrodynamic process involved in the formation of the oil film that prevents bearings from seizing and galling.
Once this hydrodynamic breakdown happens, and the oil film is lost, your bearings are toast.

I didn't introduce the subject of air-cooling into the thread - you did, by introducing what I thought was your air-cooled motor bike engine into the discussion.
I realise now you may have been describing a water-cooled motor bike engine.
I merely continued the discussion by describing the major differences between air-cooled and liquid-cooled engines that sets them apart.
FollowupID: 799812

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:27

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:27
Ron didn't make any mention about "air cooled motor bike engines" in my post. Most motorbike engines these days are water cooled including mine.

You were the first to bring up air cooled!
FollowupID: 799863

Reply By: allein m - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:04

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 21:04
i will get it checked out next week I am sure it will just need a good clean I will also put new oils and filters in it for good measure .

if i know the car cannot do the trip I would not take it .

thanks for that

AnswerID: 519612

Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:09

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:09
hi alien
one thing that none of the above posters have mentioned is the fact the cooling fins in the radiator core might be externally blocked on the lower section and /or most of it with insects of all types /dust and grass seeds/leaves which can be a major reason for an overheating engine
even when everything mechanical is in good working condition
so when you get it serviced ask them to look at that situation first or you could be paying for a lot of parts that aren't really needed

in order to clean out above debris properly the radiator usually has to be removed from the vehicle
as a farmer I have experienced this problem on many occasions due to driving through stubble/staw and grass-hopper/moth plagues etc
even with compressed air its hard to do a proper job due to access/cowlings etc

FollowupID: 799783

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 11:50

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 11:50
Oh hell yeh.
I have had a radiator that would have been 2/3 blocked with bugs and seeds.

and it did not look anywhere near that bad till I took it out.

In the old days with copper & brass radiators, it was reasonable to go thru and poke out all the holes.....very time consuming but possible.

With the new aluminium radiators.....yeh its just more practrical to replace the radiator.

FollowupID: 799867

Reply By: Erad - Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:05

Saturday, Oct 12, 2013 at 23:05
Why does an engine overheat? Check these answers and cross off most of them.
1 Blocked radiator: If you have been doing the righ thing and using and changing coolant regularly, this should not be the answer. If you have rust in the water passages, this may be the main problem.

2 Thermostat: Thermostats usually fail shut - they do not open at all and then the engine boils, but if it is only opening a bit, it could be OK on the highway but for stop/start driving, would block it enough to cause overheating.

3 Temperature gauge: Temp gauges are simply a microampmeter, responding to changes in resistance of the sender unit as the temperature changes. For our TM magna, the resistance at the 'zero' or cold mark on the gauge shoudl be 104 ohms. At the last mark before the red zone, the resistance should be 24 ohms. Don't know which magna you have, but I would expect it is the same, assuming that it is an analogue instrument panel.

4 Water Pump Drive Belt: The drive belt is the little vee belt at the transmission end of the engine. Is it tight? Does the pulley turn when the engine is turning?

5 Airflow to the radiator: Is there any restriction to the airflow? - Fins damaged or blocked with dead insects?

6 If you have exhausted all the above, you have fairly well checked the cooling system. Next is to check if the system is being overloaded eg a blown head gasket or air leaking into the inlet manifold, causing the mixtures to be too lean. Failing all that, the exhaust could be blocked but this is most unlikely.

You could have any of these issues, or even a combination of them. Check them out and then if all else fails get a new radiator.
AnswerID: 519617

Reply By: Stevesub1 - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:37

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:37
When I was racing cars, on of my race cars was very marginal in the cooling department so I ran straight non-diluted coolant, no problems at all for many years.

If a modern standard vehicle overheats these days, there is something wrong. Possibilites are radiator, water pump, fan(s), thermostat and possible blockage somewhere.

As others have suggested, run the manufactuers recommended coolant and change it every couple of years. Get a mechanic to suss out the complete cooling system, radiators, water pumps and thermostats do not last forever but using the correct coolant does extend their lives.

I have never had a modern car overheat in traffic. By modern, I mean made in the last 30 years or so.
AnswerID: 519678

Reply By: allein m - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:06

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:06
I'm not too sure about the location of sensors, but.....

The Magna has two fans, the left one (if viewing from the front of the car towards the back, then it'll be right) will only turn on when the A/C is activated.

The right one should turn on momentarily once the car has warmed up, basically when the temp guage reads about half.

So to test it, once its warmed up let it sit there idling, the fan should turn on in the space of 15mins. If it doesn't, i'd suggest find a multimeter, unlplug the right fan connector, and test the connector and see if it gets a reading at some point in time, ie. you may have to wait 15mins.

now after some resarch I did find this that the 2nd thermo fan only works with the air con on

as I rarley use the air con I may have not worked that out

you learn some thing new every day lol
AnswerID: 519689

Follow Up By: Herbal - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:32

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:32
I am not sure if you are replying to yourself or quoting someone else...I stopped reading the followups when bickering started.

The fan coming on is not determined by time. So waiting 15 minutes means little.

There are two sensors. One sends a signal to the gauge that you see on your dash...the other sends a signal to turn the fan on. They are usually side by side. The larger one is for the fan.

If you think either of them are faulty you can do one of two things...Replace them or check them. You can get generic brand and they do not cost a lot. I replaced my coolant sensor about a year ago with a generic and I think it cost $12 or $15.

You CAN test them with a multimeter. You need to test the ohms. Maybe your best bet would be to ask here - http://www.modifiedmitsubishi.com.au/index.php they used to be called modified magna. They are a good bunch of people. Someone there might know what the ohms should be.
FollowupID: 799895

Reply By: allein m - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:56

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 17:56

new fluid

hoses checked

radiator is in good condition no insects or blockage

fan works fine

ok I did some searching on line and found a post similar to mine and found out some thing new

magna s have 2 fans and the 2nd one only works when the air con is working

now I rarley use the air con it does not get hot enough

so i switched engine on and air con and the fan fires up no problems.

the drivers side thermo fan is for use when the air con is on the passenger side is normal use when it gets way past half way on the gauge

I have done as much as I can the old fluid was clean and no sign of any corrosion

next week I will change the oil and check out tires and every thing else

thank you for your help it has been another good learning experience

I feel a lot better and more comfertable that I got that problem sorted out

AnswerID: 519692

Follow Up By: allein m - Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 18:11

Monday, Oct 14, 2013 at 18:11
I forgot to say I took the advice and purchased genuine mitsubishi radiator coolant

sorry about repeating my self there but wife was on the other computer on utube and slowed me down I thought the post did not go through

again thanks for your opinions

Herbal thank you that was my next step if the fan did not work

I have made note of the sensors for future referance
FollowupID: 799898

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