Landcruiser diesel or petrol?

Submitted: Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:06
ThreadID: 104882 Views:9292 Replies:13 FollowUps:43
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Hi All,
After travelling round Australia last year we now have gypsy feet and have come home with one goal in mind to travel this great land together. So we put the plans in motion and bought a 20ft caravan with all the luxuries after travelling in a camper trailer last year! Our issue now is what car to buy to tow it????? We need a car capable of towing 3.5 ton. We like the Ford ranger but with only 5 cylinders hubby is concerned about longevity with towing. We feel the best car for the job is the landcruiser but with the price of diesel models verses petrol we are wondering if anyone has any information to offer with regards to the cost of running the V8 petrol as we are tossing up that the $20000 difference in price tag buys a lot of petrol!!! Are there any other differences we need to be aware of? We have been told it is cheaper to work on the petrol models also. I just don't want to have a heart attack every time we fill up.
Many thanks and happy travels Carreen x
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Reply By: Member - Chris_K - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:27

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:27
Hi Carreen

I suppose you are right about the price differential...Diesel is quite a bit more expensive, so here are my thoughts:

1. The resale value of Diesel vs petrol is much better (i.e. when the time comes to sell the car - you will get more back with a Diesel),
2. Running costs - pretty comparable. Especially if you get the "fixed price service" option that lots of LC200's come with. People will talk about oil usage in Diesel LC200's - but with 5 years of touring around, ours doesn't use any oil at all (i.e. we've not had to top up between services).
3. We tow a pretty heavy camper trailer - and get returns of 16-18 litres/100ks. This gives us a range of 800-900k towing - which is pretty handy. The petrol model (I believe) is closer to 25-28 ltr/100ks. There is a thread somewhere on this forum from Mike Burton who tows an Odyssey Camper trailer with a LC200s petrol...if you search for his blog, he has some fuel consumption figures for the petrol. When you do - check out all the jerry cans he carries on the roof rack!
4. Diesel is more available in remote areas than petrol, and with the lower consumption, you have to carry less spare fuel.
5. Towing with a Diesel (any modern Diesel really) is much better than a petrol in my humble opinion. The ready availability of torque low down in the rev range makes life a lot easier for those who tow - with acceleration and overtaking made that much more pleasant. It's also a relaxed and quiet motor at highway speeds - without towing, we cruise at 110kmh with the tacho sitting at about 1500rpm. Towing it's a little higher of course.
6. Carrying diesel in jerry cans is a lot safer than petrol.

Chris
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Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:13

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:13
Hi Chris,
Thanks for all that detailed information. I forgot to say we are looking at the 100 series. when we traveled last year we had a diesel rodeo and I agree about carrying the extra fuel drums. This time we are looking at it in a different way not so much a trip but a lifestyle and hence not too much off road with the caravan as we will take a tent and camping gear.
Thanks, Carreen
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:49

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:49
Carreen - Chris has nailed all the points pretty well. A diesel is far better for towing due to increased torque, which relates back to diesel being a slower-burning fuel.
You never see petrol-powered trucks any more for heavy duty work.
Diesels are exceptionally economical if you run at 1/2 - 2/3rds throttle and keep the RPM's steady.

The greatest single problem you'll find, is wide variances in fuel prices between petrol and diesel - and bigger fuel discounts for petrol.
In Darwin last year, I noticed diesel and petrol were virtually the same price - in Perth, petrol was 20c a litre cheaper than diesel.

The second greatest advantage with diesel is fuel range - meaning you don't have to carry sizeable amounts of extra fuel.

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: Herbal - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:30

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:30
This should be fun...I making some popcorn for the show :)

I am not going to get involved in the debate. However, I would like to comment on filling up...It does not matter what your tug is, if you are towing 20 foot at upto 3.5t, you will need your heart medication near by :)

Your day to day running costs will depend on just how much driving you want to do each day. If you plan to move each day or two, it will seem like you are spending a fortune. But if you are planning on staying in one place for a few weeks or so at a time, then it seems better on the pocket...You still spend the same amount, it is just not day in day out.
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Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:17

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:17
Hi herbal,
Good point. We intend to have the caravan as our house and as hubby may move to another job interstate. From there we will do weekend trips around until we can take off full time. Plans take a while to unfold; I want to do a tourism course to give us some income on the road working in parks and hotels etc and we need to organise something to give us and income whilst travelling!!!
Thanks for the feedback
Carreen
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Follow Up By: Herbal - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:51

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:51
You are welcome!

May I offer another suggestion...Have a look at doing a basic cooks course. You don't need a full on cookery certificate, just a basic course that covers hygiene and basic cooking methods.

The affects from the Olympics are still with us. They put something like 10,000 people through basic cook training...But many of those are finally leaving the industry. Many food places on the tourist trails have to rely on back packers to flip burgers...The back packer will stay long enough to get enough money for a bus ticket. Tell them you will stay for 2 or 3 months and you might be surprised at what they will offer !
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Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:25

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:25
Hi Herbal,
You should of seen my face when I read this ha ha ha
Having raised 2 boys and a daughter and cooked dinners for them for over 20 years plus treats for their lunches I am probably well qualified to cook but not really interested. I am also a teacher so tutoring could be another source of income.
thanks for your help
Carreen
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Follow Up By: Herbal - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:29

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:29
Having completed two apprenticeships in the hospitality industry. The first for service and the second in cookery, followed by 30 years working in the industry, is exactly why I suggested a basic course...

10 of those years was as an Army cook. I just worked it out...your 20 years cooking for 3 kids (if you actually cooked all three meals a day 7 days a week) is equal to about 40 days as an Army cook.

Although, I spent my childhood at school, I am not qualified as a teacher ;) So I don't know how you would go tutoring.

Your idea of a tourism course might get you some work...But at the end of the day, if you want work while travelling, then you need to do what the backpackers are doing. Would you be happy with $3 per hour? ... A backpacker is ! A backpacker will clean or cook or pick fruit or mow lawns etc and they are very good at. If you go into a business and ask for $30 or $40 per hour and your only qualifications and experience is that you raised three kids, the business owner will probably say something like "don't let the door hit you on the way out".
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Reply By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:54

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:54
Careen, I think you husband needs to think 2013 and not 1970 regarding the Ranger with a 5 cylinder engine, 5 cylinder engines are a better design than the more common 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines. The Ranger and BT50 are brilliant vehicles with heaps of power

You have gone into detail regarding caravan weight, but what about vehicle weight?

How many people?

How far off road?

Towing a heavy caravan you will always get a heart attack when filling up.
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Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:20

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:20
Hi there,
I love the ranger! There are only 2 of us; all the kids grown up and gone!! We wont venture too remote with the van as we did that last year but will take a tent and camping gear for that.
The big question is will they last like the landcruisers do and retain the resale as well.
Thanks carreen
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 14:05

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 14:05
Carreen - A 5 cyl engine is better balanced than a 4 cyl engine, but not as smooth as a 6 cyl or an 8 cyl.

The longevity of an engine is directly related to engine cubic capacity and the power it puts out.
Current engines are using better metals technology to produce more power from less engine capacity - but I don't think anyone seriously believes for one moment that a 5 cyl Ranger engine will last as long as a 6 cyl Landcruiser engine.

The general opinion is that the current 3L 4 cyl and 5 cyl engine are good for about 300,000kms before overhaul is needed.
I have seen many 6 cyl diesel Landcruisers with over 500,000kms on the clock and still running O.K. - but in need of overhaul soon.

The greatest source of problems with current-build vehicles is excessive amounts of complex electronics. These electronics need good protection from water and dust, or you're looking at serious dollars in repairs.

Be very careful when buying a used 4WD, as to how it has been driven, and where it has been driven.

A friend recently went to sell his Jeep privately (that he'd purchased used, and owned for about 18 mths) - and a car yard expressed interest in it.
However, the car yard backed out of the deal after finding out the Jeep had been previously registered as a "repairable write-off".

My friend was upset and angry about this, as he had no idea the Jeep had been in a major accident and he'd bought it off a car yard. However, there were no laws in place when he bought it, for the car yard to notify any buyer the Jeep had been rebuilt from a wreck.

I believe (in W.A. anyway) that law has been now been changed. I'm not sure of the rules and laws in all the other states.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Chris_K - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 14:29

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 14:29
Hi Ron/Carreen

I think in most states now you can do a REVS check that will tell you if the vehicle has been written off among other things. A worthwhile investment if you are buying a used car - as is the standard motor association vehicle inspection check - you just need the VIN number to start.

Chris
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:17

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:17
5 cylinder engines offer the advantage of more power than a four cylinder engine and more fuel efficiency than a six cylinder with near identical power output in a more compact layout.

V8 engines will always have an advantage in off road applications due to their overlapping of the power stroke making power delivery smoother and more gentle on the drive train and environment.

As for the electronics, nearly every engine produced in the last 10-15 years has had a vast array of electronics, for reliability all you have to do is look at earthmoving and heavy vehicles and the limited issues they have.

People have to learn to get their heads around the current crop of higher powered diesel engines that are being produced currently and relise they are just as reliable and in most cases more reliable than the dinosaurs of yesteryear.

For longevity..... it's hard to say as most vehicles do on average 25,000k a year and most have only been around since late 2005 (Toyota D4D) here in Australia..... if you base it one these figures most would only be nudging low 200,000k mark. Even if it was taken up to 30,000k per year that would still only be 240,000k....... to many people have inaccurate crystal balls and read to far into the future. I have never seen figures quoted on the expectant life expectancy of the newer engines vs the older engines.

We have a current model 5 cylinder 6 speed auto Ranger XLT and a current model Landcruiser 200 series VX diesel, the Ranger is my wifes everyday car and used to cart the dogs around in for retrieving and it's a fantastic vehicle, the Landcruiser is set up for touring (only 2 seats) and is a unbelievable vehicle off road but the Ranger tows our Ultimate camper better.

If I had to choose between the two, the Ranger would win.

The diesel vs petrol debate is a good one and is something you can only choose. expect about 4-5lts per 100k difference in fuel consumption under all conditions, the other factor is diesel is always going to be available from somewhere or someone whereby petrol in remote areas is harder to come by if needed.

BTW I don't see contaminated fuel being a big issue but if filling from somewhere a bit suspect alway run the fuel through a "Mr Funnel" first.

Resale value of diesel vs petrol is starting to sway towards petrol due to the cheaper pricing of vehicle and fuel.

The other thing to consider what make to buy is the service network and availability of spare parts, we run a workshop and in 4x4; Toyota by far is the easiest and quickest to get parts for follower by Nissan..... Jeep is usually ex Singapore and Land Rover ex UK. I'm sure some diehard will tell me we are an idiot for buying genuine and you can get them quicker and cheaper from business X...... the truth is you don't want to spend hours searching for a part and if the vehicle in under warranty you only have one choice of where the part comes from.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 20:35

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 20:35
Olcoolone, I can specifically recall reading in old Toyota brochures (just recently) that the 4 cyl, 2L, 5R model Toyota petrol engine as fitted to the old Toyota Stouts and Lite Stouts, and the smaller Toyota trucks, was specifically engineered with a 300,000 (500,000km) mile projected engine life. I've rarely seen a worn-out old 5R engine.

The newer models have no stated projected life span, because they don't want you to know they've reduced the projected life span of todays engines - and they now suffer from "electronic death" rather than actually wearing out.
The "electronic death" comes about with high mileage vehicles and with damaged electronics, where the cost of any major electronics component immediately exceeds the vehicles value, and the vehicle is scrapped.

Here's one I came across recently. A 2003 Landrovery Discovery with 70,000 kms on the clock in excellent condition is dunked in some deepish water. The water wets the carpet and some electrics in the cabin, making the ECM go into "limp home" mode.
The owners call the insurance company and the insurance company writes it off on the spot. I rest my case, M'lud!

Landrover Discovery wrecked for parts after getting a little damp
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:14

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:14
Ron stop bring up stuff thats over 35 years old and quoting from that, this is 2013 not 1978.... back in 1978 it would of been a big deal to get that mileage out of an engine seeing most only drove 8000 miles in a year.

Ron it's all good and well to say things about newer vehicle but people have very short memories when it comes to older vehicles failing.

People don't want to know that in 20 years time they will have to get their engine rebuilt...... where did you get the inside information on this HUSH HUSH stuff the manufactures don't want you to know regarding engine longevity?

Any vehicle submerged new or old will be written off straight away by insurance companies, it lessens their ongoing liability.... I rest my case!

Why do people think electronics in vehicles is something new, it's been around for well over 25 years and when was the last time your TV or microwave went on the blink?

As vehicles get older and once parts come available secondhand the cost of repairs decrease, a VL Commodore EFI computer was $1600 new back in 1986....... today it's $60 secondhand, a distributer $850 and now $35.

Have you had anything to do with newer vehicles or are you just generally scared of them?

It's funny that the people who don't own newer vehicles always know all the faults that are not known to anybody else and the owners are usually the last to find out if something may fail in the distant future.




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Follow Up By: gbc - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:11

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:11
If water got over the sills (wet carpet) the vehicle is a statutory write off - car/van new/old - the insurer has NO CHOICE.
I think Ron N would do well to get behind the wheel of a ranger and hook up a bobcat or a Haines 680SC as I do and drag it around the block a few times before saying a 100 series is better at anything?
If the OP likes the ranger and it's a toss up between an overpriced second hand landcruiser or a new Ranger I'd not hesitate to suggest the Ranger is a much better choice. A car under full warranty vs one that isn't? There's no decision to be made here.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 00:19

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 00:19
the ranga may be a better vehicle, or may not.
Point being the 100 series has the runs on the board in spades. The Ranger may well achieve this also-but until then, its just an opinion for the next 5 years or so
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Follow Up By: gbc - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 06:16

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 06:16
Runs on the board? I couldn't wait to get rid of my 100. Broken diffs, terrible fuel usage, brakes and abs from the Stone Age. Just my opinion, but they certainly aren't the greatest. Rangers have been replacing toyotas in mines long enough now to have a fair idea of how they'll go - not perfect but not bad. Oh and the ranger has electronic trailer sway control.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:14

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:14
Too many dwell in the past of what was and not what now.

Jump into a 200 series and you soon realise how outdated the 100 series is in every aspect including off road.

The Ranger is the new king of SUV at this current moment, having both I can live with the Ranger as an everyday drive.

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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:25

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:25
GBC sounds like you got a real dog-or a 1HZ, but i doubt youd be stupid enough to be comparing a 1hz to a Ranga? Im sure when you sold yours youd have been happy with the resale if it was an HDJ100.
Olcoolone, thats what ive done-200 2010 yr. it certainly has more power, smoother and similar economy. But the downside is the complexity expense and much poorer resale
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 17:00

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 17:00
gbc - I'm old enough to remember when you bought a 4WD and you could drive through a flooded creek without being terrified of turning it into a write-off when (or if, as it's more likely today) you got out the other side.

I can recall being in the passenger seat of my brothers HJ60 diesel and we ploughed through a flooded creek with water just lapping the bottom of the windows. No snorkel, no lifted suspension, just a bog standard HJ60. I wouldn't have done it, but he's madder than me! That old HJ60 was still going like a train when he sold it 5 yrs later for a new HJ61.

I dunno how long you think your Ranga will last - but I'll wager you'll be hard-pressed to find a buyer for it, when its got 250,000 kms on the clock - unlike the older Tojos.
When I sold my HZJ80 (turbo auto) with nearly 200,000 kms on the clock, in the late 1990's I had to knock back the buyers with a stick.
But like all new 4WD owners today, I guess you buy them and turn them over 3 yrs later, and let some other sucker get stuck with all the electronics failures.

If I pay good money for a new set of wheels, I still want it to be performing with minimal problems when it's 10 yrs old.
You could always buy a used Tojo with 250,000 kms on the clock and everything still worked faultlessly, and all the knobs and controls were still intact.
It used to be what set Toyota apart from the others - where at 250,000 kms on the Brand X's, one fifth of the controls failed to work, and half the knobs had fallen off.

Come back when your Ranga's done 250,000 kms of hard work and we'll make a real comparison then - unless, of course, in the meantime, it's gone to China on the back of a tilt-tray, because it was a write-off after a major electronics failure. [;-)
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Follow Up By: gbc - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 19:21

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 19:21
You blokes should stop guessing about other people - it makes you look silly.
1. I still HAVE my 80 series - 450k and more than half the knobs are gone - what rot. P.S. No big end troubles in my 1fz-fe - mine is literally factory standard and still running like a clock. I don't know of a single 1hdt to have made it that far on its own. A 1hz turbo auto you say?
2. I work in an industry where we are on our third generation of PX rangers. They had a vibration issue with the lower radiator hose rubbing through, two of them did oil pumps at about 150 thou, one of them wasn't switched off and did the whole motor ($9k - not too bad). All of them have idler pulleys run out and eat the serpentine belt - the cars literally don't get turned off - they sit and idle or are driven. I don't need to guess about how they hold up. Considering how the opposition held up, they survive just fine.
3. Just last september I drove my colorado (no snorkel, bog standard) towing a camper through water such that I had a clear water line approx 200mm up my windscreen - it's still going fine - the cadet drives it now with 300 thou and desert crossings/islands/towing/work thrown in. Not bad for a $40k diesel auto. It is now entering it's 6th year and NO I am not selling it to some SUCKER - it's too bloody reliable, even with 300kms on it.
4. Speaking of water crossings, which one has the highest fording depth at 800mm???? Don't say it, you'll choke.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 03:18

Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 03:18
who looks silly?
1. the 100 series never came out with a 1HDT
2. thats hardly a ringing endorsement for Rangas
3. bollocks-what a load of rubbish. But whats it got to do with Rangas???

As Ross said-see what the Ranger is worth with 250,000ks on the clock
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Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 05:58

Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 05:58
1. I know - I was referring back to his 80 - he was referring to one that was never built. Keep paddling - you'll make it bud.
2. Considering the size of the fleet, it was good enough for me. I'm not selling the things to anybody, that's why I gave the info warts and all.
3. Whatever. What's a 60 series got to do with it? Merely pointing out that modern diesels can do the business and survive. Yes it did do it by the way - Worallie Creek Fraser Island 2012 - emergency situation.

Resale at 250K - haven't checked. Depreciation figures are out there if you want to check.

I'm out.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:42

Wednesday, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:42
Sorry, brain fade error on my behalf, I meant to type HDJ80 but put HZJ80 instead.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, Nov 01, 2013 at 08:28

Friday, Nov 01, 2013 at 08:28
Makes you wonder how many on this forum are still using Commodore 64 with dial up internet connection....... and Windows 3.2 still hasn't proven itself...... according to some!

Why Why Why do some insist on comparing apples with potatoes?

If you compared the Ranger with others in it's class' the Ranger is very good...... how can you compare a $70,000 vehicle with a $40,000 and expect the same in every aspect?

Remember a bog standard base model DX 4.2lt non turbo Landcruiser was $53,000 back in 2000..... half the price of a house.
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Reply By: member - mazcan - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:56

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 12:56
hi careen
have you considered the new jeep diesel models heaps cheaper than LC diesels and can tow 3500kg and they are outselling Toyota LC this year
well just wait now for all the negatives about jeep from all the LC fans to come flying on to here about how you can get Toyota service any where etc etc the facts are you need it to keep them going in a lot of cases
I'll duck off cheers
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Follow Up By: Herbal - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:03

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:03
"well just wait now for all the negatives about jeep from all the LC fans... "

I am making some popcorn...Do you want some ? :)
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Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:23

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:23
Funny you say that as the people we bought it from towed it with a jeep. I just don't think a jeep is us, no real reason really but I would say from an aesthetic point of view they are not really 'beasty' enough for us!
Do I duck now or run!!!!!

Carreen ha ha ha
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:38

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 13:38
Mazcan - There's only two things about Jeep that makes me shudder.

One - Googling "Jeep Cherokee Product Review".

http://www.productreview.com.au/p/jeep-cherokee-2002-present.html

Two - Jeep brags about being the lowest-cost car manufacturer in the U.S. Read, "cheapest-to-build". The results show up in long-term Jeep performance.

Yes, I know Toyota's have dropped the ball on QC in recent years - and they admitted it, and they set up a whole new dept just to deal with their vastly-increased warranty claims.
A poorly-built Tojo is still better than any Jeep.

Bottom line is - how many Jeeps do you see on minesites?

The greatest single problem today is the vastly-increased complexity of new 4WD's with excessive amounts of electronics and glitzy, complex "accessories".

O.K., I've got a big bag of popcorn open .... [;-)
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:22

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:22
QUOTE "Yes, I know Toyota's have dropped the ball on QC in recent years - and they admitted it, and they set up a whole new dept just to deal with their vastly-increased warranty claims. "

Tell me more? News to me.
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Follow Up By: philw - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:44

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:44
In reply to Ron N. How many Nissan's and Toyota's do the military use?
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:55

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:55
philw....... Nissan and Toyota don't make specific vehicles for the military unlike Mercedes with their proven military specific G wagon.

But saying that we work on a lot of Toyotas for the military that are used for base vehicles like the police and general duties.

How many G wagons do you see the UN or government departments using? The UN uses a hell of a lot of Toyotas and government departments use a mix of Toyota and Nissan.

Price is a big driving force in fleet decisions along with serviceability, years ago it was resale value but this isn't the case anymore now all departments leases of one department.
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Follow Up By: Herbal - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:55

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:55
Not just Military...but in fact all of Government, have a policy for purchase of anything...It is "best value for money"... That means "cheapest".

If it is being used by Defence, all that means is the bean counter got it cheaper than any other option.

If military are using Toyota or Nissan...then you can bet your bottom dollar they either paid off the bean counter or sold way below fleet retail... Cheap advertising directed at people that actually think the military use the best !!!

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 18:36

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 18:36
I think you're a little bit incorrect regarding bean counters and vehicle choice.

If you ever get the chance to look at the vehicle tendering process you would be shocked at what some go through and what they have to offer...... and I'm not talking price or monetary kick backs.

Some stuff we tender for include guarantees the product is going to work within their guidelines 110% and be reliable, availability of supply and parts into the future and aftersale support.

Nobody would sign off on a large order and only base their decision on price...... it would be suicide.

Mercedes has one thing over the others....... a proven track record in military vehicles, just the same as how Rheinmetall won the contract for heavy vehicles with MAN.

If large sums of money is involved, Proven products win every time..... if something goes wrong people in high places start asking BIG questions.


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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 00:26

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 00:26
Olcoolone - News to you? What bush have you been hiding under?

"Toyota Motor Corporation has historically been viewed as a high-quality producer of safe and reliable automobiles. So, how did Toyota find itself plagued by problems in the 2000's involving accidents, lawsuits, recalls, and high warranty expenses? One prominent theory is that in its attempt to gain market share and exceed the sales of GM, the company lost control over the manufacture of of some critical vehicle components, including the electrical systems and the accelerator. Around 2005, Toyota began a significant shift towards outsourcing important parts of the production process to its key suppliers. However, those suppliers often did not have the same internal controls as or reputational incentives associated with product quality as did Toyota. In short, the sales volume goal and related outsourcing led to reduced quality, and the company is now suffering for this strategic misstep. As of March 31, 2010, Toyota had accrued a warranty liability of of US$2,985 billion related to these problems. During 2010, Toyota responded to its problems by convening an ongoing Special Committee for Global Quality to investigate the causes of quality issues and to determine the best strategies for dealing with them."
(Book: Auditing; A Risk-Based Approach to Conducting a Quality Audit - by Karla Johnstone: Page 738)

More _ http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20110630.html

What is also not widely known, is the effect on Toyota of the Japanese Govt passing working hour limits (per day) in the late 1990's.
In the mid 1990's, the Japanese Govt became alarmed at a new phenomenon that was producing a sharp increase in the death rate of otherwise healthy males in the workforce.

Employees, many of them highly trained people, and senior people in companies, were dropping dead for no immediately-obvious reason.
The doctors investigated and came to a shocking unanimous conclusion - the deaths were the result of overwork.
Sizeable numbers of Japanese executives, engineers, and other important highly-educated employees were arriving at work at 6:00AM, working all day until past midnight - sometimes to 2:00AM, going home, snatching a few hours sleep, and then returning to work at 6:00AM.

The overwork was taking its toll on these over-conscientious workers, and they were starting to drop like flies.
The Japanese Govt passed a law limiting employee working hours in one day to 12 hrs maximum.
The effect on Toyota was immediate. Toyota engineers, already low in numbers, and already overworked, constantly checking engineering plans and QC on the factory floor - simply went home at 6:00PM and left Quality Control and engineering plans unchecked and unattended.

Parts designs were forwarded to the factory and were manufactured and installed without the necessary QC inspection of the plans and the finished product. Toyota was running at full steam, but the steersmen were absent.

Toyota hurriedly carried out a major increase in the intake of engineers. From inducting 300 new engineers a year, Toyota went to inducting 900 extra new engineers a year.
However, new engineers take several years to train and to get up to full speed in the techniques of Toyota QC and production. There was a serious lag in QC right as production levels soared.

New Toyota V6 engines were blowing up with less than 200kms on the clock. Accelerator control problems arose, boot torsion bars snapped, electronics problems reared their ugly head. Increased numbers of engine problems surfaced, oil burning, injector problems - and all these QC were sheeted home to inadequate engineering checking and QC. Warranty costs soared. Toyota, which had less than 200,000 vehicles with warranty claim problems in 1999, saw the number of vehicles with warranty problems soar to over 2,000,000 vehicles by 2005. The numbers kept rising through to 2009.

Toyota had dropped the ball, instead of picking it up and running with it. Toyota had chosen the path of vastly increased production levels, with a corresponding drop in engineering checks and QC levels.

In Toyotas favour, they have recognised their lowering of QC standards and are trying to address it. However, there's still a lot of Toyota vehicles out there that will continue to show poor Toyota QC for years to come, until they are scrapped.
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FollowupID: 800943

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:40

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:40
And BMW is the most complained about vehicle manufacture in the world........ Toyota in your eyes have big problems and in everyones elses eyes small problems.

You are basing your views on one manufacture and I doubt you would of taken the time to investigate other manufactures or be able to get the data required to make a true judgement.

Yes they do have some problems but no worse than any other manufacture. Do a Google search for a specific manufacture and place recall in the search criteria and see what you get...... you will find Toyota is not the only one

All manufactures gauge recalls, QC issues and warranty claims differently, some may publicise each individually, others may group them together or absorb them in to another group.

We currently run 7 current style Toyota vehicles with the oldest nudging 240,000 and we have used Toyota since 1996 and the number of warranty claims or recalls we have had can be counted easily on one hand. We have only had one fail a gearbox that was out of warranty be traced to driver error.

With our Ford Range we have had 5 warranty claims in the last 12 months..... from a low level rattle to the engine stopping for no reason.

The media like most things did hype things up and it might be a case of the typical "tall poppy syndrome".

Have a read of this and the play the media had in it.

http://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/what-really-happened-to-toyota/

The media is a very strong force with not so ethical values, the more they get people talking the more media they sell.

Classic example...... over here 8 weeks ago there was an accident involving a child accidently getting pinned against a wall by a mother in her car when she hit the wrong pedal....... all the media (print, TV and radio) started of with "a 4wd pins child against the wall and 8 weeks on it was in the media again with the title "4x4' in the heading...... the vehicle was an older Toyota Rav 4, not a real 4x4 but it got people talking of how dangerous these big monsters are and should be outlawed.

So yes the media play a very big part in stuff and naive person believes all the hear or read without having all the correct facts.

Japan has a very strange work ethic and value, unless you're involved directly with then I don't think you would understand, there has been many times where I have left and felt I had been banging my head against a brick wall. Japanese companies are very anal and a real pain to deal with....... it's just how they are and failure is not a word they understand.

Look at Mitsubishi and the stuff they kept secret for 40 years and up to current times in 2004......... staff suicided over it.

What happened in the past happened and can not be changes



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FollowupID: 800953

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:44

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 08:44
Here is a bit more about long work hours...

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008-07-13/world/36920060_1_karoshi-overtime-rules-kenichi-uchino
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FollowupID: 800954

Reply By: Bazooka - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 15:00

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 15:00
Auto diesels are the dishes du jour no doubt. Torque, fuel consumption and longevity are their main advantages. Just remember that with common rail diesels in particular dirty fuel is a real and potentially expensive issue (check your insurance and get an alarm system). Also you might want to put some $$$$ away for new/exchange injectors when they're eventually due for replacement. That service will set you back anywhere from $4000 up.
AnswerID: 520441

Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:45

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:45
Ok thanks Bazooka! Will keep looking and investigating.
Carreen
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FollowupID: 800928

Reply By: Peter T9 - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 16:55

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 16:55
Hi Carreen

Have just gone through the vehicle purchase thing and bought a 2001 100 series factory TD Landcruiser. Our friends and travelling companions have done the same thing and bought the V8 petrol I think around 2005 or later model. There was only about $3k difference in purchase price with mine being the dearer however also had slightly lower km's with 148,000 on the clock

So far what I have observed is that for similar money you can either get an older 100 series TD with basic features or one of the later built V8's with sightly better specs ie rear a/c cruise control etc.

Fuel consumption unladen for the TD is around 11.5 litres/100km haven't calculated towing yet however we only have a small camping trailer and would expect around 14-15 litres/100km. I wouldn't be supprised it was better than this as the short drive I did with the trailer you couldn't really feel it was there.

You would have to confirm V8 fuel consumption with some other owners I know friend is happy with his however does not use it for a daily drive and is more interested in passenger capacity and power.

I really think you can lower the price differential between petrol and diesel if you are prepared to go older however it is difficult to find sensible km's.

The V8's seem to be alot of vehicle for a very reasonable price and readily available.
AnswerID: 520446

Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:50

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:50
Thanks Peter this is exactly what we have been finding when looking for one.You were lucky to find one with low km's
carreen
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FollowupID: 800929

Reply By: Bludge - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:11

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:11
Carree,

Great question and like Herbal, I have put the pop corn on.

The question of Petrol and Diesel is valid and has been a subject recently in a 4WD magazine and on LCOOL forum.

Just a few facts on the Land Cruiser 100 series and some thoughts.

V8 Petrol 170 kw @ 4800 rpm and 410 Nm @ 3400 rpm
6 Cyl TD 151 kw @ 3400 rpm and 430 Nm @ 1800 rpm

So its not a great deal more torque, its just where it comes in. On the diesel the torque tapers off after 1800 rpm and the kw start to come in. There is no doubt that if you tow constantly the diesel is the better deal

Someone mention trucks are designed for lugging, yes true and they do this all the time.
Will you be towing the caravan all the time or occasionally?

As for resale, with most things, pay $50k and get $30 back in 5 years or pay $30k and get $15 back in 5 years. Or the extra $20k in the bank making money or $20k on the road depreciating :-)

There are other vehicles that can tow 3.5 tonnes, or just keep the Ford Ranger.

TonyV

Cairns FNQ.

Member
My Profile  My Position  Send Message

AnswerID: 520447

Reply By: Gunbarrel Greg - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:40

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 17:40
Hi Carreen,

Apart from the fact that a diesel is more economical as a towing vehicle, there are other considerations. At the fuel stops in northern WA, diesel is the same price as petrol and in some places is cheaper than petrol. Some of the more remote stops in WA don't carry petrol at all. With every passing kilometre, your initial $20,000 price difference will soon fade into memory.

wishing you happy and safe travels,

Greg.
AnswerID: 520451

Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:57

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 21:57
Thanks Greg! it would seem most readers lean towards the diesel for the reasons stated.
happy travels to you also-we met so many wonderful people on the road last year and I now yearn for the outback, sounds funny but too many assaults on the senses back in suburbia lol
Carreen
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FollowupID: 800930

Reply By: Axle - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 18:15

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 18:15
Hi Carreen, Just out of interest what brand of van did you buy?, as 3.5T sounds a lot of weight for a 20ft van,....A 100s 4.2l 1hdfte would be the best bet, But don't discount the 200s V8 petrol if you could snag one on the cheaper side with moderate ks. Happy travels with whatever.


Cheers Axle.
AnswerID: 520457

Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:01

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:01
Hi Axle,
We bought a supreme spirit. It weighs 2100 unloaded so we were advised 3.5 towing power gives you extra grunt and hubby really likes more cylinders.
Happy travels to you also, we saw so many amazing things last year and work just doesn't cut it this year.
Oh well means to an end
Carreen
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FollowupID: 800931

Follow Up By: Member - Chris_K - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 09:00

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 09:00
Hi Carreen

Work just doesn't cut it for me either...if only someone would pay the bills, look after the kids, and keep the house tidy while we went away for extended periods....I'll just keep dreamin! :)

Hope you have a great time!

Chris
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FollowupID: 800955

Reply By: Member - KeithB - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 19:00

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 19:00
I asked myself the same question three years ago. Did all the sums (fuel, service intervals and costs plus fuel cost and usage) and reckoned that I would have to do about 200,000km to recover the increased buying cost of a 2005 100 series diesel.

So I bought a lovely V8 petrol. I have found that the problem when towing is range. At 25l/100km when towing you get about 500km out of tank. For off road touring I'd like a bit more. A larger tank plus rear bar to carry the spare adds about $3K or so for an extra fifty litres.

That's why my beloved V8 petrol is now on the market.
AnswerID: 520466

Follow Up By: Carreen - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:03

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:03
Hi Keith,
Commiserations on the sale of your car does this mean you are going to buy a diesel on now??
Carreen
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FollowupID: 800932

Follow Up By: Member - KeithB - Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:18

Sunday, Oct 27, 2013 at 22:18
Carreen

It was a toss up between a brand new Nissan Navara 3 litre diesel with all the bells and whistles or a 200 Series with 120,000 to 150,000 km on the clock for about the same money.

My wife sat in the Narara in the Nissan showroom yesterday, while I talked about the need for and the high cost of a lift kit and a set of 33's to make it any way comparable with the 200 Series in the bush.

She made the decision for both of us - a used 200 Series it is!

I also drove a mate's 200 Series yesterday and there is a week of daylight between that (admittedly a lovely new Sahara) and our 100 series V8 petrol. It steers and points beautifully and the power is breathtaking.

But hey, it's my wife's decision, not mine! A man has to make sacrifices for a happy marriage.
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FollowupID: 800936

Follow Up By: Carreen - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 21:11

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 21:11
Sounds like a deal to me, happy car hunting!!
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FollowupID: 801004

Reply By: 410 - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 13:14

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 13:14
Hi Carreen,
We have just finished our trip (22,000kms) towing a 3 tonne van with a GX 200 V8 Diesel Wagon. Best fuel economy about 17 ltrs/ 100 and worst 24 ltrs/100. Without the van best 10.8, worst 14. Considering total combined weight would be 6 tonne this is good economy, and with the weight of your van I was told from the start you need the horse up front pulling as heavy or heavier than the van for safety and this was agreed on whilst speaking to others. With that choices are a Cruiser, Chevy, Dodge or Ford F250- F350. Actually now that we have finished our tripping we are looking at selling ours, ( 36,000kms) all set up ready to go. If you are interested reply with your email.
Regards
Richard
AnswerID: 520511

Reply By: TerraFirma - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 15:29

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 15:29
Had both a petrol and diesel 200 series and do enough towing of a 2.6 tonne boat. When we sold the petrol model VX - 80,000Kms we only got $50k. The diesel gets a better return and for good reason, it tows better and uses far less fuel. My wife loves the fact she gets 1000km around town before a re-fill. Obviously the diesel costs more however given the consumption and re-sale you'll be on a winner imo.
AnswerID: 520518

Reply By: Ross M - Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 16:04

Monday, Oct 28, 2013 at 16:04
It seems you can still have a snowball run away and out of control even in warm weather when there is no snow, just read above.
AnswerID: 520520

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:22

Tuesday, Oct 29, 2013 at 16:22
Humans have been gifted with this thing called conversation, you must lead a boring life if you only answer questions to the T and not vary off track a little. Site around with a bunch of friend and start talking about oranges and it leads into childhood memories and politics....... or do chair a conversation with friends and provide everyone with a schedule of conversation and advise others not to wander off the topic.

You only can say so much with YES NO.
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FollowupID: 801062

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