New 4wd Transmissions improved ,But??

Submitted: Friday, Nov 08, 2013 at 21:11
ThreadID: 105054 Views:2393 Replies:5 FollowUps:17
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Looking at a New Massey Ferguson 4WD Tractor (5445) and their transmison set up and thinking for the money asked for a new Nissan and Toyota landcruiser, they are a bloody mile behind in terms of being advanced in gear boxes!,Six speed autos?..Wow,!! Try 40speed autos, half gears,Shuttles that can pull the machine from forward to reverse at great speed smooth as silk......And these tractors built to do heavy work with big hp, can be purchased cheaper than a bloody 200series Toyota, Talk about supply and demand costing the consumer?. I think 4wd trasmissions of to-day are dinasour units as to what they could be, especially as I mentioned what your paying these days!

Cheers Axle.

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Reply By: Member - Fab72 (Paradise SA) - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 06:28

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 06:28
Does the tractor come with alloy wheels, leather seats, climate control air conditioning, ABS, sunroof....etc.

Cars are reasonably cheap (in context) to produce.....parts wise. It's the labour to assemble them that is the killer.

Compare the Great Wall to a Falcon or Commodore. Some would say a 4X4 Great Wall has more features than the others (and it probably does), but one is assembled in China the other in Australia.

Where are the tractors made? India?

Fab.
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Follow Up By: Member - Fab72 (Paradise SA) - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 06:33

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 06:33
Also the R&D costs.
Cars have to undergo a lot of R&D testing for N&V, Crash Ratings, Fuel Consumption etc.

Tractors really haven't evolved much in terms of chassis. Noise and Vibration, crash testing and fuel consumption is not as relevant either. Most of the development costs are bourne by the suppliers of the engines, transmissions etc and not by the assembling plant.

There's a lot more than meet the eye but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. :)

Fab.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 08:06

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 08:06
Hi Fab,...Both are built for a purpose,..In twenty years tractor design has changed a lot in the engine and hydraulic departments ,very complex machines, not just thrown together, what you get internally is a different thing.....When I see a new manual, 4wd with two gearboxes the same set up that's a forty year old design I just think for the money you pay, it could be a lot better,.


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 08:14

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 08:14
Unfortunately the 4wd vehicle manufacurers can sell everything that lands in the country so why spend money developing new better stuff if the punters will pay top dollar for what they dish up.
Look around to see what the big (Toyota, Nissan etc) sell overseas and then look at what they offer here.
Yes there are cost involved in developing models for our small market but look at the number of small utes towing big vans that outweigh them to see there is a market for the big utes available overseas. Yes there a small importers doing the conversions so if they can do it then the manufacturers could do it far cheaper.
Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 09:55

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 09:55
I'm with Axle here. Great post by the way. And yes, Fab, tractors do have climate control air conditioning (it's a workplace after all) and fuel consumption is even more important for productive machines than it is for 4WDs used largely for the leisure market.

The fuel consumption of a 100hp tractor 20 years ago now gets you over 200hp. Not sure we can point to such improvement in 4WDs.

Axle's also right in pointing to the innovation in tractors over the last 10 or 20 years, compared with 4WDs, which in comparison, are more like trinkets at the margin.
Paul B Kalgoorlie

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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 11:51

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 11:51
We're currently looking at the MF 7400 Series, and yes Axle they are so advanced now it makes a 200 Toyota look like a Dinky Toy.

Check out the brochure for the features now offered.Massey Ferguson tractor
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Follow Up By: Axle - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 14:56

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 14:56
Magic units Mate,...Just as comfy and as quiet as any 4by!
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Follow Up By: gbc - Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 17:04

Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 17:04
Can a cruiser constantly automatically vary it's ground speed depending on how much torque the 30 foot slasher behind it is drawing off the motor is it cuts different vegetation to get the best possible output of work?
Throw most blokes the keys to a 7000 series and two hours later they still won't have it running, the onboard systems are so complex. Watch those plastic fuel tanks and mudguards though;)
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Reply By: Ross M - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 09:44

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 09:44
Regarding vehicle production costs.
An overseas manufacturer who sells a vehicle to an Australian distribution network of the same name, makes the complete vehicle and sell it to the reseller ie Mazda Australia for less than half of what we pay for them.
So, halve the price of a new vehicle here, subtract the transport cost to get it here and you then have a figure which is the money amount covering production costs and the profit margin the originating company is happy with.

Mazda BT50 $48000 here. production costs and the profit margin is covered by $24000 at the dock. That leaves $24000 for dealer profit and "ROOM TO MOVE" with a deal on each vehicle. Not much moving happens.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 15:02

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 15:02
Your right there mate,... not much movement at all,..they always want the bigger piece of the pie.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 20:11

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 20:11
The manufacturer makes only a small % of profit out of building a new vehicle. The manufacturer relies on parts to provide the profit margins for 20 years to come, once the vehicle is on the road.

The dealer has to make a sizeable profit on the sale, as he only gets one bite at the cherry. He's got a big business to support, usually quite a number of staff, promotional costs, display costs (big yards cost $$$'s), storage costs, vehicle transport (movements) costs, interest charges on floor plans, and a host of other miscellaneous costs.

The problem is, there's a lot of very-well-hidden collusion as regards pricing, despite laws to the contrary.

I inadvertently started the price-fixing case against Toyota Australia in W.A. in 1988, when I bought 3 dual cab Hiluxes in one deal.
I went "dealer shopping" and came up against a wall of set prices, with no variations.
However, one dealer, with a new salesman, sold me the Hiluxes at a price $600 better than any other dealer.

Unbeknowns to me, the dealership got fined by Toyota Australia for going against an organised "back-room" price-fixing deal.
The salesman (an honest bloke, believe it or not) was angered by the setup, and dobbed in Toyota for resale price maintenance arrangements.

Toyota was fined a huge amount under the resale price maintenance laws of the time, and entered into a court agreement, to never engage in such practices again.
I'll wager that agreement lasted only until they found a way to hide a new agreement, more thoroughly.

Price-fixing, territory-division agreements, cartel agreements, and 100 other "back-room" methods of ensuring the customers are regularly shafted and made to pay more, are just as prevalent as ever, despite increased "watchdog" powers.
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Reply By: yarda - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 11:27

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 11:27
You are dead right Axle, don't forget the auto steer setups that track accurate to centimetres, while the great aircon and entertainment systems do their thing.

My neighbour just picked up a new US built JD with full cab FEL and all the trinkets for 50k and that thing boogies down the road almost as quick as a fourby!
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Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 13:32

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 13:32
A 200 series Cruiser is a status symbol and is priced accordingly, to rip money off people who have more money than they know what to do with, and don't care what they pay.
90% of 200 series Cruisers are just huge tax deductions to exceptionally wealthy people, mostly in the excessively-rewarded corporate world - who have them listed as an asset on their personal or corporate body/trust/overseas tax haven that they utilise to minimise/avoid tax.
As a result, they don't really care what they pay, it's all just a big tax deduction, anyway.

Look at where 90% of the 200 series are utilised - as Mums shopping trolleys in the leafy Western Suburbs where the second car is a top-of-the-wozza Beemer, and there's usually a 3rd car that's a mega-dollar "collector car".
90% of 200 series never even see a gravel road, let alone go 4WD-ing. The only time they select 4WD is to jump the kerb and park in a patch of soft dirt, at some big entertainment event.

Paying around $100K or $120K for a 4WD and losing $10K or $15K a year in depreciation (let alone the financing cost) makes no sense to me - possibly because I haven't set up a corporate body, trust or some other tax lurk to reduce my tax to bugger all.
As a private individual, the finance cost alone, on a 3 tonne 4WD is equivalent to what I pay for regular overseas holidays, staying in 4 star hotels.

But the luxury 4WD market is insatiable, and no-one knows it better than Toyota.
Guess who is the most profitable automotive manufacturer in the world, and who has US$50B cash-at-hand, from retained profits?? (yes, that's BILLIONS, not millions!)

Meantimes, tractor manufacturers struggle with intense competition and canny, tight-fisted farmers, who won't pay a cent more than necessary to get the best tractor money can buy - because agriculture is one of the lowest-profit-margin businesses around.
Talk about two different worlds.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 19:27

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 19:27
I don't know that is right about tractors. You can buy more than 400 different makes and models of tractor in Australia so they too must be creaming a $$$$$.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 19:46

Saturday, Nov 09, 2013 at 19:46
Ross - Well, that's exactly what I'm getting at. A tractor manufacturer has to put up with a potential buyer going off and comparing a dozen other brands, and probably 2 dozen other models in those brands (nearly all of them, just as good) - unless that original manufacturer (and dealer) can "sharpen their pencils" and cut their margin, to get the sale.

If you go to buy a 200 series, you get a sniffy greeting and get told they're in high demand and short supply, and there's no possibility of you trying to negotiate serious price reductions. "We have the best, and you have to pay for it", is the mantra.
It just goes to show what you can do re pricing, once you have that "brand name" and "reputation" firmly established in the publics mind. Both Caterpillar and Toyota follow the same game plan.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 13:21

Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 13:21
What a load of nonsense, all that dribble just sounds like stubbie talk at the pub
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 13:44

Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 13:44
How many new Toyotas have you bought, Alby? I've bought over 50. In fact, I've bought over 200 new vehicles in my business career with my brother - plus several hundred items of new and used machinery, up to more than $1M in individual purchases. We owned a 1000Ha farm, and sharefarmed double that area, and we were also the biggest family-owned mining contractors in W.A.
Then after I split with the brother, I became a used equipment buyer and seller for over 10 yrs.
I think I've got a bit of buying, selling, and dealing experience up my sleeve. Put your cards up, or shut up.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 21:06

Sunday, Nov 10, 2013 at 21:06
Ron if you have done all of that as a sole trader I assume you are not getting good advice from your accountant.
I have bought plenty of new vehicles but that is not relevant.
These "Mega wealthy people with their offshore companies" are not interested in a b....dy Toyota! There are plenty of more expensive toys they can buy and lose there money on, you will most likely find there ' second" car the Beemer cost more than the 200 anyway
I look around and see 200's being driven as multi purpose kid chariots, boat/caravan tugs for families and a favorite of grey nomads. Just like 100 series before it. Hardly a prestige vehicle.

If you have been running this mega business as you say you do you would be well aware that nothing is free, you pay for it one way or the other BUT with advice from an accountant there are alternate ways to make a purchase to get more value for your money. Claiming an item as a tax deduction does not make it free, all it does is reduce your gross profit that you would be taxed on so in essence you are buying the item with pretax dollars so are getting a discount of about 30% depending on individual circumstances. Add to this Fringe Benefits tax, GST implications and accounting costs to provide the necessary reporting to the ATO plus then having to pay business rego and insurance you will find many an accountant will advise you are not achieving a lot of savings and maybe it is easier to just purchase privately. Obviously the above scenario will vary with individual circumstances but if you didn't purchase this expensive overpriced 200 series, you could have added that purchase cost as part of your salary to your paypacket less tax, so it definitely is not a free ride.

As far as the price of a 200 or any other vehicle for that matter goes, a business will sell a product for whatever price the consumer is prepared to pay, that is the law of general commerce for any product.
The market ( consumer) dictates the price not the seller if he wants to remain in business. I say good for Toyota if they have created a brandname that allows them to get away with charging a premium for their product, if you could sell an item for more money you would wouldn't you?
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Monday, Nov 11, 2013 at 06:35

Monday, Nov 11, 2013 at 06:35
Ron, I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that I'll bet you think Julia's policies were a bit to far to the right, and Kevin was a sound economic manager and Wayne Swan knew what the hell he was doing.

Just a guess.
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Reply By: Pete G - Tuesday, Nov 12, 2013 at 20:32

Tuesday, Nov 12, 2013 at 20:32
Many years ago Chamberlain made a dual purpose road going tractor capable of about 85kph. Idea being that you could drive into town to do the shopping. They gained infamy as 'tail end charlie' in the Redex trials. With today's mod cons they would be very comfortable by comparison. Still quite a cult following as I saw some at a machinery display a couple of years ago. Room for 3 to 4 across the front seat ie mum dad and kids.

Today's offerings would be sheer comfort by comparison.

Regards

Pete G

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Follow Up By: yarda - Wednesday, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:32

Wednesday, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:32
Hey Peter, sounds a bit like the HMEE which is an armoured front end loader that the ADF have, Thales built them to do full convoy speeds and I think they topped out at around a hundred ks.
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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Wednesday, Nov 13, 2013 at 14:09

Wednesday, Nov 13, 2013 at 14:09
One of the cane growers at Childers has a 9G Countryman with a turbocharged Perkins 354 and straight through exhaust which he pulls out for a couple of days each year to use as a cane haul out tractor. I can assure you that it can be heard at least 5 km away at night and it shoots flames about a meter long out the exhaust.
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