100 series Landcruiser debate

Submitted: Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 21:36
ThreadID: 105437 Views:13160 Replies:11 FollowUps:36
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Thought this forum might be the best way to close a ongoing debate amongst friends about the plus's & minus's of petrol v diesel 100 series.( 2nd hand to buy)----Topics that came up were
1. Deisel will do 1000's of K's, how long will a petrol engine last?
2. A used petrol model is half the price to buy, but is it too thirsty?
3. Not a lot of difference in power/torque in Toyo spec's, --are they misleading?
4. Can you "chip" a petrol motor as per the deisel?
5. And of course the availability of petrol "out back"
The debate goes on amongst us, so who among the L/C owners out there has got an unbiased view as to the goods versus bads of both, Your opinion will influence the purchasing of one or tother........Look forward to your reply's

Cheers.....Sapper D
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Reply By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 21:59

Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 21:59
Hi Sapper,
1. Diesel and petrol will both do over 400,000km with proper servicing. (last petrol 1FZ I sold had 411,000km and wasn't yet burning oil (leaked some though).
2. Not as much difference in fuel usage if driven sensibly and petrol is cheaper LPG even cheaper also has power on tap at all times.
3. Misleading yep it is all about driveability. Petty wins.
4. You can chip a petty same as a modern diesel.
5. Never had a problem getting petrol and only once LPG (because they ran out as the truck was late and I didn't want to wait 1 hour)
6. They say modern diesels have a 10,000km service interval...how many of all brands are blowing up due to blocking oil galleries. A petrol costs half as much, half as often to service and won't blow up if you are late to do it (within reason).
7. Diesels an petrol both have electrics (diesels now have more) so that debate is dead (petrol has been better waterproofed for longer now)
8. a full rebuild on a 1FZ will cost $2500 to $3000, the injector pump only on a diesel will cost that if done properly.

I have owned 66 cruisers, some of which I used for commercial 4wd tours for 9 years and I will always buy a petrol. Diesels loaded up with the trailer, roof rack and between 7 and 12 clients were far too slow for the small amount of fuel they saved. With the higher cost of diesel, it worked out at around $5 for a 3 day trip and not worth the slow trip.

I read on here some time back that if you purchased a new 200 series diesel it will take around the 200,000km mark to break even in savings compared to the petrol. Robin may chime in as he may have passed on this info (memory strainer there). This didn't take into account extra filter setups to prevent water in the diesel and any injector / pump problems that may result from water or bad fuel (up to $20K not warranty).
Cheers,
Dave
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2015 Fortuner
Had 72 cruisers in my time

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Follow Up By: Ross M - Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:23

Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:23
What do you mean "engines blowing up due to blocking oil galleries"?????

What is in there to block oil galleries? Oil galleries are usually quite an adequate size and would take some blocking.
Any engine, even reasonably well serviced won't ever block the oil galleries. The engine oil is made to keep all internals clean.

If left unserviced and gunge does build up, the flushing of it will certainly feed it through the precision engine bearings and properly stuff them.
That might DO the bearings

The only engine I have seen even likely to be considered gunged up and with crap in the galleries, was a Hilux which hadn't had a service for years and years. Yonks in fact, and you know how long a yonk is don't you.

They possibly fail because of dirty oil, ie, too dirty, and the filter is bypassing the element, again from no servicing and dirty oil is what bearings don't like.
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Follow Up By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:07

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:07
Hi Ross,
The oil squirters under the pistons to be more precise. The supply to these blocks up and the piston heats up more than it should and grabs the cylinder wall. I have personally had this happen with an engine at 150,000km that was log book serviced and know of quite a few more. There are numerous other issues with EGR blocking manifolds, causing poor running and oil contamination before the allocated service interval and thus engine failure. It is quite common on common rail diesels due to our poor diesel compared to other countries that these euro spec diesels are designed for.
Cheers,
Dave
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:57

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:57
G'day TB
I would be interested to know what brand and grade of oil was used in a vehicle that is regularly serviced and blocks the piston cooling nozzles.
Many people will be interested to know the brand.

The two things which would be in question is the quality of the oil and/or the brand. Some do sludge more than others despite the manufacturers claims of their product being good and exceeding every oil specification known to man.

I would blame to oil not the fuel.

Turbos also have restrictors to control the oil rate, have you had any trouble with turbos being destroyed because the their supply was blocked from the same oil contaminated oil?
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:10

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:10
Got a mate who seized his 6 cyl Cat truck engine twice, before they found a piece of loose, floating Silastic - from a previous overhaul by a "Silastic Kid" mechanic - that had blocked a piston-cooling jet. The silastic had gone through the oil pump without being ground up.

Use that RTV and Silastic sparingly when you overhaul.

TourBoy is right, piston-cooling jet failure will result in piston seizure.
It's not unknown for piston-cooling jets that are inserts, to fall out and thereby ruin the oil-spray pattern - thus leading to piston seizure.

Oilway blockages are generally due to slack maintenance, whereby sludge builds up because of overdue and neglected oil changes.
Many Toyota engines have inadequate-sized oil passageways, that block up when oil changes are neglected.

Overfuelling, due to Japanese diesel engines aneroid fuel pump controls, used to produce excessive soot in oil.
The aneroid-controlled fuel injection pumps would pump in excessive fuel when the accelerator was constantly floored.

Not a problem nowadays with electronic fuel injection. Electronic injection has it's own huge range of problems, not the least of which is exorbitant repair costs.

You need spotlessly clean oil and fuel for modern diesels, as the parameters they operate on, are so much narrower than earlier design engines.
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Follow Up By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 20:57

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 20:57
Hi Ross,
I'm sure it was Dello 400 15w40 iirc. Yes we had 3 turbos go in one week at between 100,000 and 150,000km. The seals let go so badly that they put oil back into one cyl somehow which was ok when being driven, but when stopped the oil crept down into one pot and when they went to start them next morning they hydrauliced.
Cheers,
Dave
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Reply By: Member - eighty matey - Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 22:09

Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 22:09
G'day Sapper D,

I can sort of help you with a few points.

I say "sort of" because my experience is with 80 series Landcruisers and they are a similar sort of beast.

I have a diesel with just over 467,000 kms on the clock and drive about 1000 kms a week. It still drives like new but I get it serviced regularly.
I have mates that we tour with that drive petrol 80s.

One has over 650,000 kms on the clock, mostly outback touring towing a camper trailer. On dirt he averages about 22 litres per 100 kms. He's had some issues lately but they are mostly due to water damage from northern floods a couple of years ago.

The other mate has just under 400,000 kms on the clock. No problems at all apart from things wearing out.

They would average 20 litres per 100 kms accounting for bitumen and dirt travel, loaded for touring.
My diesel averages about 16 litres per 100 kms.

The difference in price would more than compensate you for the extra fuel costs, especially when you consider the difference in cost between diesel and petrol.

Petrol is available in most locations throughout Australia.

There isn't much difference between the revs showing on my tacho at 100 kph and my mates.

Steve
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Reply By: Member - LeighW - Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:40

Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:40
I don't see how you could chip a petrol motor if it hasn't got a turbo that has electronic boost control.

I don't believe the 100 series has a turbo on the petrol engine but happy to stand corrected?

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:47

Monday, Dec 09, 2013 at 23:47
Also, torque in a diesel is different to a petrol engine, in a diesel the torque is produced at low RPM's and the engine works less and is good for towing as the torque is there straight away.

In a petrol engine max torque is produced at a lot higher RPM and therefore the motor is working harder. Also takes time for the revs to build up so torque is delayed some what.

As a general rule I look at torque and horse power this way, if you want good pulling power got for a diesel. If you want a higher top speed go for a petrol engine.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 07:50

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 07:50
You must be in the dark ages, chipping petrol engines have been around since the 70's.

Powerchip based in Melbourne has been advertising in magazines since the late 80's and do a range of chips for many normally aspirated petrol engines. They had a big following with the RD30 and V6 engines in the Commodores.

In a non turbo/supercharged Petrol engine chips alter timing, fuel delivery, fuel cut, rev limit, torque limiting, engine and cam timing plus they can remove silly flat spots or other stupid things manufactures add with software.

With the aid of modern technology many petrol engines are out performing diesels in power and torque, look at the Falcon turbo producing 500nm at 1750rpm-5000rpm and 270kw, many 4 cylinder petrols including the Falcon Ecoboost are delivering inexess of 350nm at 2500rpm and 175kw ....... many diesels are not doing that.








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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:28

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:28
As I said waste of time for petrol engines, I have seen many different chips marketed and there all gimmicks.

Yes you can change the timing fuel delivery, if you want the motor to run rougher and use more fuel.

Yes you can change the fuel cut, rev limit, what a waste of time that one is, engine is engine is already past its max torque and power all your going to to is blow it up. torque limiting and compromise the engines safety.

The stupid measures you refer to are there to protect the engine!

Cam timing, the only engines you can chip for Cam timing are pneumatics and variable timing etc, doesn't seem to be a lot of those around.

The power gains with these chips are marginal and compromise engine safety.

If you want more power and maximum reliability get a bigger engine.

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:57

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:57
Just checked out your power chip,

For a V8 Commodore:

Standard 270KW and 530Nm

Chipped 286KWnand 556Nm

Youv'e upped the power of a 270KW engine by 16KW a whopping 6%
increase in power. Try pumping up the tyres a bit more or change the dirty air filter for the same increase.

As I said a waste of time on a non turbo Petrol engine.

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:38

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:38
olcoolone,

Also forgot to add, I believe electronic fuel injection came into vogue around the 1980's so doubt chips were available in the 70's but again will stand corrected.

Your opinion is your opinion mine is mine, and frankly I don't place much value in yours. You seem to pop up all the time in discussions with your arrogant, no it all, grumpy attitude, you really need to take a Valium, chill out and seek help, and that's my opinion.

Cheers
Leigh

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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 17:05

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 17:05
LeighW
A policeman who stops you to ask directions will most likely be driving a Commodore which has been chipped. They have been doing it since the RB30 engines. Some of those were turboed of course.

Lots/Many cars which DO have variable valve timing via advance and retard of the cams, operated by modified engine oil pressure via an ECU controlled valve, so YES, cams are also controlled plus the other stuff mentioned. Some are turbo some aren't. Pneumatics isn't used for cam control, but hydraulics are.
Think Honda and many others.

Tyres inflation and airfilters if correct aren't in the equation I wouldn't think. I don't know anyone who adds a chip and also a dirty filter.
and deflates the tyres.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 17:53

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 17:53
Lee petrol engine tuning has been around from the beginning of time, I suggest you don't comment on something you have no understanding off.

Wiki link....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection

You only get 5-10% when chipping a current diesel engine, what it does change is drive-ability.

"The stupid measures you refer to are there to protect the engine!"

The ones that are you do not alter, things you can change is how responsive an engine is, shift points, and power delivery point...... you have to remember manufactures make engines for the masses and drive-ability is there number one priority.

Honda owners for years have be using vtec controllers to change cam lift position.

We were playing with Haltechs back in the mid to late 80's on FJ20's, L18/20, Pinto's and Rotary's...... turbo and non turbo.

Most who talk "more power = greater wear = lack of reliability" have no real understanding or idea about building or tuning engines.
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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 18:56

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 18:56
olcoolone

Arrogance again I see, have been playing with motors since I was a teen, done the cams, manifolds, twin carbs, bore outs etc .

And I did state electronic fuel injection, most people associate chipping with fuel injected motors.

If you like playing and getting dirty fine, these days I'll buy a car with a bigger motor thanks.

As for drive ability, if your not happy with the way the car drives why buy it in the first place? I'd prefer to put the research in and buy a car that does what I want without having to mode it and the associated problems it can cause.

Chat with a few of chipits customers and see if they agree that chipping doesn't effect reliability.

Increasing power doesn't increase wear or reliability, what a load of crook, of curse it does, piston ring thrust force increases, bearing loads increase, higher combustion temperatures burn valves if there not designed for it, cooling system loads increase for it, clutch loads gearbox loads, diffs. Yes modern oils help with wear but more power still decreases engine.

Ask any petrol head if his ever burnt a clutch out or blown up a gear box etc, after upping the power of the motor, or turbo nut if his ever blown a hole in a piston or burnt out valves, answer will most likely be yes.

By the way I don't see any of the V8 super cars fitted with chipped standard chipped production motors.

Comes on, I really think its time to get real, sounds like you run a work shop that does tuning or chips to me?

I think you should actually understand what you talking about before you comment.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 08:21

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 08:21
Please don't dig the hole deeper for yourself than you already have.

Here is a person who sells and spruik a way overpriced crude "alternator voltage booster"...... have you ever thought why vehicle manufactures set charge voltages to a certain limit, right or wrong and you're saying playing with parameter values is fought with danger! Isn't that the same as using an aftermarket or reprogrammed chip and is thats what your doing?

"By the way I don't see any of the V8 super cars fitted with chipped standard chipped production motors."

Please stop before you embarrass yourself, V8 supercars run under a controlled class that limits engine capacity (they use a special motorsport motor), suspension, drivetrain and everything else...... saying what you have is like saying no F1 cars are fitted with chipped standard production motors ..... you don't have to be einstein to know that, you probably don't know the V8 supercars are also six inches shorter and the back doors have been chopped.

So the V8 supercars have a standard chip in them that comes with the vehicle designed by the vehicle manufacture (Ford, Holden, Mercedes and Nissan) for the masses.....LOL LOL LOL LOL..... please stop.

It sounds like you still think you can rock into a car dealer and by a V8 supercar of the floor, hate to tell you sunshine there is not much that can be found in a V8 supercar other than the name that is in the car you and me can by.

FYI, there is this class called modified production where the vehicles use modified chips and ecu's.



Yeap I'll come clean.... I know very little about mechanical stuff and electrical so I can accept defeat when someone with vast more knowledge like yourself appears on the scene....... thats why I employ skilled tradespeople trained in the latest techniques using the latest technology......
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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 09:29

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 09:29
"Please don't dig the hole deeper for yourself than you already have.

Here is a person who sells and spruik a way overpriced crude "alternator voltage booster"...... have you ever thought why vehicle manufactures set charge voltages to a certain limit, right or wrong and you're saying playing with parameter values is fought with danger! Isn't that the same as using an aftermarket or reprogrammed chip and is thats what your doing?"

Yes I change the voltage they have set to meet pollution requirements and lower fuel consumption to achieve a specific out come, exactly the same as the chippers do for your driveability issues. However my changes remain in the range specified by the manufacture as normal for the vehicle, do the chip moders?

As for crude and overpriced, it a very smart simple and cost effective alternative to than those over priced DCDC chargers you push to achieve the same end result.

Any stop try to side track the issue and keep to topic.

"By the way I don't see any of the V8 super cars fitted with chipped standard chipped production motors."

"Please stop before you embarrass yourself, V8 supercars run under a controlled class that limits engine capacity (they use a special motorsport motor), suspension, drivetrain and everything else...... saying what you have is like saying no F1 cars are fitted with chipped standard production motors ..... you don't have to be einstein to know that, you probably don't know the V8 supercars are also six inches shorter and the back doors have been chopped.

So the V8 supercars have a standard chip in them that comes with the vehicle designed by the vehicle manufacture (Ford, Holden, Mercedes and Nissan) for the masses.....LOL LOL LOL LOL..... please stop."

It sounds like you still think you can rock into a car dealer and by a V8 supercar of the floor, hate to tell you sunshine there is not much that can be found in a V8 supercar other than the name that is in the car you and me can by.

FYI, there is this class called modified production where the vehicles use modified chips and ecu's."

Many moons ago before it was adulterated they used production motors, of course those production motors had things like special plated pistons,special piston rings, special valves treated to withstand the heat and roller bearings etc to handle the extra power and temperatures by race fuel and the engine mods to increase power.


"Yeap I'll come clean.... I know very little about mechanical stuff and electrical so I can accept defeat when someone with vast more knowledge like yourself appears on the scene....... thats why I employ skilled tradespeople trained in the latest techniques using the latest technology......"

Yes I agree your knowledge is lacking.

The manufacture has spent thousands of hours testing, yes he's put paramatters in their that affect driveability, silly little things he decided was required to protect the motor under specific conditions or then maybe the gear box or possibly meet anti pollution requirements.

I'm sure the chip tuner has spent as much time testing, I don't think so, he's put the car on a dyno, change the data to screw the maximum power he can out of it and or torque to meet the customers requirements.

I've seen the results of high performance tuning, the holes in pistons, the burnt valves, the the manifolds with holes burnt in them, broken crank shafts and bent valve gear caused by as you said "you can change the RPM's" funny that's another of those safety measures the manufacturer puts in.

Even the chip makers tell you that chipping can compromise the life of the engine and recommend EGT probes etc, why to stop the motor self destructing! Of course more relevant to turbo or diesel engines where worth while power increases are concerned not for a miserly 6% as bove.

At least in the old days when engines where performance tuned they also carried out the mechanical alterations required to handle the power increase.

Get real, get your head out the sand, if someone wants to chip fine, I've got one myself for my turbo diesel, I'm prepared to where the fact that it will probably reduce it's engine life and could cause other problems, its most likely non compliant with pollution laws now else why would the chip manufacture say for race track use only, and that it could affect the life of the gear box etc. I'll take the risk for the added power.

Jeez you do carry on at times trying to side track the issue to prove how superior you are, just like a toddler having a temperature tantrum because he couldn't get his own way.

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:27

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:27
And before you start, when I said I have a chipped car, I should have clarified, my partner has a chipped car as she likes the extra performance.

Mine is stock standard and its the one we always take when tiuring for maximum reliability!

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:35

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:35
And again if your brave enough to tell your wife/partner what car she can buy or do to it go for it I'm not!

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:38

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:38
Well stock standard in regards to the engine ECU that is, come to think of it the dealer flashed that for the injector problem so that's not stock standard either.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:44

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:44
I'm so sorry for doubting your knowledge in automotive seeing you have many year in it as an experienced professional and you really seem to know your stuff, yes I am wrong and my lack of knowledge shows doesn't it, so again I am very sorry for doubting you.

I am sure your product works very well and you have done extensive long term lab and field testing using specialised test and data logging equipment in all conditions and under all loads, you would do the right thing by your customers if it caused extensive damage by paying for all repairs ,and I am also sure you would carry the appropriate expensive product and public liability insurance just in case.

And I have to understand manufactures build engines right on the edge of reliability and there is no room for performance improvements and by doing any performance mods including flashing and installing upgraded chips you will significantly cause engine and drivetrain damage very quickly.

So please accept my sincere apologies.

Holes burnt in manifolds??????
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:49

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:49
Pretty low hey when you have to start bringing in personal stuff about my wife, attacking me personally is one thing but to start including my family is a very very low shameful thing to do Leigh!

An apology from you to my family would be much appreciated, but I ma not holding hope for that.
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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:42

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:42
That's absolutely correct has been extensively tested on bench and in field for tens of thousands of kilometers and in each model I recommend it for.

Thousands now in use and I haven't seen any posts by unhappy users of my product have you? I also supply to the trade and haven't had any complaints from them either.

Congratulations you actually got something right for a change.

As for the DCDC manufactures, one of the biggest makers was still marketing their VSR for vehicles that it was unsuitable for years after they were released, they weren't even aware their was an issue even though their customers were feeding back they were having problems with their equipment. I'm sure they did thousands of kilometers of testing on each model before they released their DCDC charger products.

I test my product or have it tested in each model I recommended it for use with before releasing.

Anyway this could be deemed self promoting which is not allowed or is that your intention to try and get me banned as I don't agree with your view point?

Back on topic

Of course they don't build to the edge, they allow some room for development improvement for the next model if its a new release engine that is.

It's the won't have any affect on engine life etc that I disagree with, if you chip mildly then probably not, ie Toyota upped the for the prado for the 120 and then for the 150 again, it was designed for it.

They also made other physical changes to the engine along with the rechipping.

If you get a mild rechip and only use the power when really needed them yes probably a marginal if any affect, but how many do, my partners goes like a cut cat and she uses it, if I drive it I don't.
Do I expect her engine, gear box etc to last as long as mine, no I amazed at times that it's still going.

Most buying a programmable chip will screw it up to the point where its causing limp mode then back a little. They don't install EGT monitors as recommended by the manufactures as they cost more to buy and install and then use the power to its max. Yes it is then going to affect the reliability and life of the engine.

Again do some searching and see what chipit customers have to say about the Prado 150. It's probably reached the end of it's development life now by Toyota. Toyota have already screwed the power up on the D4D a couple of times. And the chip suppliers are even screwing considerably more power out of it and causing all sorts of problems including engine destructing being reported.

As for holes in manifold, yes, recently worked on a turbo charged Holden my brother had modified by a reputable firm. Poor programming, over boosting, ran lean, burnt hole through exhaust manifold also burnt hole through exhaust port of cylinder head through
to water channel. My brother was stupid wanted max performance got it reprogrammed and then took it up the highway to see what it would do. A 65 year old petrol head that's never grown up Im affraid.

I also worked next to do McDonald brothers in Melbourne for many years, they specialise in high performance tuning, drag cars funny cars street racers, racing products etc.

Well lets just say if you checked out the high performance street cars that were brought in on tow trucks you would be amazed at the damage that was done.

Anyway tired of this debate so finished

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:35

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:35
By the way don't assume because someone doesn't have knowledge on a particular topic that they have no mechanical knowledge on the subject at what so ever, they simple may not have had to dabbled in that specific area or have not wanted to go down the specific path being discussed.

I was most likely pulling down engines and rebuilding them when you were in nappies

I looked at it form the logical point of view why would you want to rechip an naturally aspirated engine. Any improvement would be marginal at best unless the engine was deliberately detuned to start with.

Checking the site you recommended showed a whopping 6% per cent increase in power for a V8 commodore. The driveability might be better but then it may be just in your mind.

Would I chip, generally not, I purchase a car to do a specific job, my Prado was purchased for touring and towing a small camper and has done it well.

I have now purchased a lot heavier camper and will wait to see how it goes pulling that around. If I feel I need more power then I either need to buy a new car with a more powerful engine (preferred) or chip the Prado as I really don't see anything out their currently that suits my needs at a reasonable price. So if more power is required then most likely chipping will have to do.

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Follow Up By: Member - LeighW - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:42

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:42
olcoolone,

My sincerest apologies to both your wife and yourself, I did not intentionally mean to offend anyone.

I was just trying to explain why I had a chipped car in the house when I'm generally against chipping.

In my case she who must be obeyed loves her chipped version and there's no way I'm going to tell her she can't have it.

Sorry again if my comment has been taken the wrong way.

Leigh

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Reply By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:32

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:32
Hi Sapper,

This particular debate has been raging here for years.

Here is my 2 bobs worth.

Having had first the 1FZ FE 97 petrol 80 series, which I loved to bits, and then the 96 model Diesel multi valve factory turbo 80 series and now the 2UZ FE V8 petrol I can speak with some authority on the subject.

Couple that experience with some fairly accurate fuel consumption records and I can tell you that the V8 is well within the ball park with regard to ownership costs and towing ability.

I love the V8 petrol and will not even consider a diesel again especially with some of the horror stories doing the rounds regard the common rail diesels and dirty fuel problems.

As far as fuel consumption goes, I was getting around 22/100 towing a 2 tonne van in the 80 series petrol, around 17/100 towing same van with the turbo diesel. I then upgraded to the V8 petrol and am getting around 22 to 24/100 towing a considerably heavier van.

Like every other diesel owner I was always chasing more performance and so spent a heap of cash on the turbo diesel and in the end gave up.

As far as I am concerned it is petrol V8 all the way. Their fuel consumption is similar to the 6cyl petrol but the performance is much better. Not that the 6cyl petrol was any slouch.

It really comes down to a matter of personal preference. The overall costs of ownership are line ball apparently.

The way the second hand car market is at the moment the petrol V8s are about the best buy going, as the backside is falling out of the big car market and therefore they are cheap to get into.
Mine had 240,000K on it when I got it and it still drives like a new car.

Use the right foot sparingly and they can be quite acceptable to live with, but boy, what a ride.

Just love the V8.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:37

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 08:37
In my view, if all other factors are about equal, petrol makes sense if you save heaps on the purchase. There are probably only two cautions on that note; 1. Fuel range is greater with diesel (you can carry less extra fuel, especially when towing). 2. If towing a heavy trailer with significant wind drag (such as a caravan) fuel consumption increases on diesel can be modest while on petrol, it can be dramatic. Such factors may be significant in your intended travel modes. As for power specs - yours may be the same as these on Lcool.
AnswerID: 522842

Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:39

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:39
Darian has nailed it pretty well. If you want to do heavy duty towing on a regular basis, then diesel is the only way to go. A petrol engine doing heavy towing will keep you poor, and you'll be struggling to make it from servo to servo.

The car manufacturers and the oil companies have it worked out perfectly - they share common directors on their boards, so they engineer the pricing of new petrol vehicles and new diesel vehicles to ensure that one does not have any major advantage over the other.

If there was a major advantage between one fuel and the other, the oil companies would be stuck with surplus amounts of one type of fuel that they couldn't sell, and they'd be facing huge losses.
The same would happen to car manufacturers.

Petrol was originally only a by-product of kerosene refining that was burnt off as a useless waste product!

Diesel was unknown as a fuel until 1931, when the ASTM produced the diesel fuel standard known as ASTM-D975.

All fuels and engines are tailored in constituents and design, to what the global companies want, so they can keep making substantial profits.

Try producing a major fuel-saving design and see how far you get - it will be suppressed by every global corporation that sees it as a threat.
The Somender-Singh squish groove has been suppressed and ignored by every car manufacturer - particularly Ford.
It has been Govts that have been driving fuel economy gains by introducing legislation that forces manufacturers to produce more fuel-efficient engines.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 18:47

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 18:47
Ron,
I do heavy towing on a regular basis and I did it with a turbo diesel cruiser for a while but it still was not as good as my V8 petrol cruiser irrespective of torque figures and the like.

The petrol cruiser is not as heavy on fuel as you make out and I certainly pass many garages before I need to fill up, I can assure you.

Diesel was only a by product of petrol manufacture and they could not get rid of it back in the old days I am told.

I still say it is a matter of personal preference. Whole of life ownership is pretty close, petrol or diesel, from the many posts and reports I have read.

I am EXTREMELY happy with my V8 petrol cruiser and will not be considering a diesel anytime in the foreseeable future.

Cheers, Bruce.





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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 19:39

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 19:39
Bruce - If petrol is such a good fuel for heavy-duty work, why are petrol trucks virtually non-existent today??

You must travel pretty slowly and haul light loads. Once you start hammering petrol engines at speed, watch that fuel gauge drop like a pole-axed steer.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 22:49

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 22:49
Yep you don't see petrol tractors, trucks or 4WDs used by agricultural or mining companies unless they are Mickey Mouse operations.
In WA the big iron ore miners, trucking companies etc use diesel for anything that needs to do heavy duty work – anything that needs torque, durability or longevity – their bean counters have done all the sums.
In my case I need a diesel which will hang in when struggling at low revs where a similar size petrol engine will die unless you rev the guts out of it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 09:02

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 09:02
The OP was asking about Landcruisers as I recall, let’s stick with that.

There are enough posts on this page in support of petrol engined cruisers over diesels to carry the argument in this instant I would suggest.

My best torque happens around 3000 to 3500. With it redlined at 5000 I would hardly think I was revving the guts out of it at between 2500 to 4000 rpm when pulling hard

I have had diesel tractors and trucks and I support your argument in that respect but when it comes to towing the caravan and touring, which is what this site is about, not mining or agriculture or the transport industry, I will be sticking with the petrol. Having had both petrol engined and turbo diesels, recently, I speak from personal experience.

I had a gut full of the turbo diesel and was glad to see the back of it. I never stopped spending money on it.
Since owning the V8, I have not spent a cent on it outside of normal services.
Couple that with the $20,000 I saved by not buying an equivalent turbo diesel and I am laughing all the way to the bank, no joke. $20,000 buys a lot of fuel.

Talking to a mechanic recently and they were at a caravan park and he commented on the large number of V8 petrol 100 series cruisers being used to tow caravans. How much evidence does one need. We can’t all be wrong.

These pages have been full, at times, of people wanting advice about chipping their turbo diesel, not to mention larger exhaust systems and any other must have performance enhancer. Then you have to have an Engine Guardian and an Exhaust Temp gauge which you have to watch like a hawk and so it goes on and on and on.... add infinitum.
Diesels cruisers are anything BUT cheap to own and run. Been there, done that.

If the diesel cruisers were as good as you say you would not need all that extra gear nor need to be serviced so regularly nor would they be so expensive to maintain nor would there be such a major performance enhancement industry surrounding 4 WD diesels. Nearly everybody wants more performance out of their 4WD diesels, me included when I had one. Not so with the V8 petrol.
.
If diesel cruisers were the same price as petrol cruisers they might be in the ball park but they are not and in my experience they are several blocks outside the ball park.

"Game, set and match" I would suggest.


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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19
You state “My best torque happens around 3000 to 3500”
That’s exactly what I am saying - my full torque kicks in 1200 – that’s one third of yours.
It's major advantage when the vehicle is struggling in heavy sand or under heavy load.
Obviously I need a motor with a bit more grunt than you do - we all have different needs
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Follow Up By: Bludge - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:06

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 13:06
Ron N, you suggested diesel was unknown as a fuel until 1931 ?

I believe you mean a global standard for diesel fuel was founded in 1931.

Rudold Diesel invented the compression ignition engine in 2 and 4 stroke in 1892.

Diesel was well known and used in ships, U-boats airships, tractors and trucks well before 1931.

1890s

1892: February 23, Rudolf Diesel obtained a patent (RP 67207) titled "Arbeitsverfahren und Ausführungsart für Verbrennungsmaschinen".
1893: Diesel's essay titled Theory and Construction of a Rational Heat-engine to Replace the Steam Engine and Combustion Engines Known Today appeared.
1893: August 10, Diesel built his first working prototype in Augsburg.[10]
1897: Adolphus Busch licenses rights to the Diesel Engine for the USA and Canada.[10]
1898 Diesel licensed his engine to Branobel, a Russian oil company interested in an engine that could consume non-distilled oil. Branobel's engineers spent four years designing a ship-mounted engine.
1899: Diesel licensed his engine to builders Krupp and Sulzer, who quickly became major manufacturers.

1900s

1902: Until 1910 MAN produced 82 copies of the stationary diesel engine.
1903: Two first diesel-powered ships were launched, both for river and canal operations: Petite-Pierre in France, powered by Dyckhoff-built diesels, and Vandal tanker in Russia, powered by Swedish-built diesels with an electrical transmission.
1904: The French built the first diesel submarine, the Z.
1905: Four diesel engine turbochargers and intercoolers were manufactured by Büchl (CH), as well as a scroll-type supercharger from Creux (F) company.
1908: Prosper L'Orange and Deutz developed a precisely controlled injection pump with a needle injection nozzle.
1909: The prechamber with a hemispherical combustion chamber was developed by Prosper L'Orange with Benz.

1910s

1910: The Norwegian research ship Fram was a sailing ship fitted with an auxiliary diesel engine, and was thus the first ocean-going ship with a diesel engine.[11]
1912: The Danish built the first ocean-going ship exclusively powered by a diesel engine, MS Selandia.[11] The first locomotive with a diesel engine also appeared.
1913: U.S. Navy submarines used NELSECO units. Rudolf Diesel died mysteriously when he crossed the English Channel on the SS Dresden.
1914: German U-boats were powered by MAN diesels.
1919: Prosper L'Orange obtained a patent on a prechamber insert and made a needle injection nozzle. First diesel engine from Cummins.

1920s

1921: Prosper L'Orange built a continuous variable output injection pump.
1922: The first vehicle with a (pre-chamber) diesel engine was Agricultural Tractor Type 6 of the Benz Söhne agricultural tractor OE Benz Sendling.
1923: The first truck with pre-chamber diesel engine made by MAN and Benz. Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft testing the first air-injection diesel-engined truck.
1924: The introduction on the truck market of the diesel engine by commercial truck manufacturers in the IAA. Fairbanks-Morse starts building diesel engines.
1927: First truck injection pump and injection nozzles of Bosch. First passenger car prototype of Stoewer.

1930s

1930s: Caterpillar started building diesels for their tractors.
1930: First US diesel-power passenger car (Cummins powered Packard) built in Columbus, Indiana (USA)[12]
1930: Beardmore Tornado diesel engines power the British airship R101
TonyV

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Reply By: Krooznalong - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:32

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 14:32
Mate - you'll never close that particular debate.

Have owned both a diesel (non-turbo) and petrol 80 series. Petrol was much easier to live with. Bit more fuel consumption, especially when slow going 4WD involved, for the petrol. Never a problem sourcing fuel for either. Sold petrol with over 400K kms and diesel a few kms less.

Now own a V8 100 series in petrol (auto) - one diesel was enough for me. I have a long range tank and that takes me a bloody long way. Fuel usage under normal conditions about same as what it was for the old diesel 80 - the 100 petrol is much more economical than the 80 petrol was (however I have added a 3" exhaust to the V8 so that helps a bit - and it sounds damn good). Slow off-road is still its downfall - a diesel will do much better fuel wise. But our vehicle is our only one and so serves all purposes and in reality slow off-road is a minor component of usage. Now has around 150K kms on it and never had any mechanical problems (bought 2nd hand with 80K).

Servicing - cheaper for petrol. Purchasing - cheaper for petrol (you'll need to do a hell of a lot of kms to make up the difference in fuel costs). These days petrol usually cheaper than diesel anyway. Petrol all the way for me.
AnswerID: 522850

Reply By: Ubique68 - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 15:41

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 15:41
Cost benefit analysis comes down pretty much on the side of petrol. Modern diesel engines -particularly turbos- are great but much more tricky for the average Joe to look and maintain than petrol engines. Full set of filters and oils for my V6 < $200 an about 2 hours work: lets face it at some point you are going to do your own servicing and its at this time when issues will occur. When I was last looking at a diesel the BEP based on servicing and fuel prices-then $1.10ltr-was 210,000km compared to the petrol version of the same make-Rodeo. Given the price of 100 Series I shudder to think BEP at current fuel and service prices. With a long range tank fitted my theoretical range is 950km-towing a Jayco Discovery @1500kg range is 780km. Must admit that a V8 100 series perol would be a neat option. ( memo: must speak to my navigator!)
AnswerID: 522851

Follow Up By: Sapper D - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 20:45

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 20:45
Thanks everyone,--whew! have you opened my eyes.----some great comments there that really have helped,---things I hadn't realised. It has swayed me in the direction of petrol that's for sure, but one thing I need to know is the preference of those petrol fans between V8 or 6cyl. Obviously the V8 power etc speaks for itself, but how good is the 6 in comparrison ? Thanks again to you all
Sapper D
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Follow Up By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 21:10

Tuesday, Dec 10, 2013 at 21:10
Sapper,
The V8 will eat the 6 as it is larger and produces more torque. But both are just as reliable. I never rev the 6 past 3000 rpm even when hauling 3.5 ton. If only they made the rigid axle 105 with the V8 from the factory. You can also get a TRD factory supercharger for the 6 and plenty of aftermarket turbos too. They still have the 1FZ overseas in some new vehicles even in carby form, tough as nails although some puff a little smoke on start up or after idling due to valve stem seals, however this doesn't stop them doing big miles.
Cheers,
Dave
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2015 Fortuner
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 08:44

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 08:44
Sapper,
go the V8 mate as the fuel consumption is similar to the 6cyl but the performance is way better. They are a beautiful ride and are as quiet as a church mouse.

Cheers, Bruce.
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
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Reply By: Echucan Bob - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:32

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:32
Its an interesting phenomenon how we need to validate our current choices by proclaiming how happy we are etc From this site, it applies to brand of car, fridge, operating system, and now even the type of fuel we use. To paraphrase some typical comments: "Any one who doesn't use the same fuel/car/phone as me is a mug".

I have a 4.5L petrol V8, a twin turbo 3.0L diesel 6, a 2.5L turbo diesel 5 and a petrol 3.4L horizontally opposed 6. All 4WD, although not all off road. Petrol is fine for around town, but diesel comes into its own for effortless cruising and off road. The petrol V8 becomes fiendishly thirsty with towing. Yes, you can compromise, especially if you are trying to save a quid, but don't pretend that petrol is the preferred fuel for 4WD cruising.
AnswerID: 522881

Follow Up By: Bludge - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:50

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:50
Bob, while I agree with your comments of validation, you sort of concluded with the same validation.
"but don't pretend that petrol is the preferred fuel for 4WD cruising."



Irrespective of diesel or petrol engine, most/many people have 4 week holiday and possibly a dozen weekends away per year. About 56 days on average that they will off road or towing a van, that leaves well over 300 days to enjoy your vehicle.

So the question could be phased, "do I buy a vehicle for 50 or 60 days a year or one for 300 or so days a year?".

So in my view the choice has no option but to be a compromise.
The running cost is secondary

In my case I brought new in 2004 a petrol LC v8 (and LPG) and with 300,000kms on the clock I believe that I went the right way.
My life style means I travel a great deal (QLD and NSW) and tour extensively (living in FNQ I also travel the Cape).

I also believe that is the preference in Mines due to it low risk in case of fire, less volatile fumes which may ignite from an ignition spark or electrical spark. As well as venting of carbon monoxide from running engines.

Yes there is no doubt that diesel does provide better low down torques and grunt.
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Follow Up By: Echucan Bob - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 15:03

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 15:03
Bludge,

good point about the 50 vs 300. I'd still compromise the 300 to have my preferred option for the 50.

My V8 is a 4.7L, not 4.5 as I posted above, and it has 360,000 on the dial.

Bob
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Reply By: Ron N - Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 14:22

Wednesday, Dec 11, 2013 at 14:22
The bottom line is that even though you may pay 20c a litre more for diesel, it has more energy content per litre.

Diesel fuel is denser than petrol and contains about 15% more energy by volume (roughly 36.9 MJ/litre compared to 33.7 MJ/litre).

Accounting for the difference in energy density, the overall efficiency of the diesel engine is still some 20% greater than the petrol engine, despite the diesel engine also being heavier.

Petrol burns extremely rapidly, immediately after ignition by the spark plug - diesel, being a slower-burning fuel, continues to burn as the piston travels downwards on its power stroke.

This is what produces the much greater torque of a diesel engine, and which makes it the ideal fuel for economy and heavy towing.

If you are doing minimal towing, and are happy to keep hwy speeds to modest levels - and you can pick up an excellent condition, used petrol 'Cruiser, at a huge saving, as compared to the same model in diesel - then, yes, there are good reasons to go for a petrol-powered 'Cruiser.

You will never "close the debate" between the choices - because at the end of the day, we individually choose what we can afford, based on our perceptions of our requirements, and based on what we perceive as the level of running costs of the vehicle we buy.

As they say, "one mans meat is another mans poison". For those who have been "burnt" by excessive diesel repair costs (and there definitely are a lot of unnecessarily-excessive diesel repair costs quoted at various times), then it's quite understandable these owners are dead-set against diesels.

I personally believe the latest diesels are becoming excessively complex (the very anti-thesis of what diesels used to be), and that a lot of new engine developments are not tested adequately, and the owner is left to be the test-bed for the newest design developments.

I have always purchased vehicles based on their reliability record, and I always like to examine a model that has a proven track record for at least a couple of years, before I buy it.
AnswerID: 522890

Reply By: Member - KeithB - Friday, Dec 13, 2013 at 14:54

Friday, Dec 13, 2013 at 14:54
I have a 2005 100 Series GXL V8 Petrol and a 2008 200 Series GXL diesel. The 100 Series petrol doesn't have as much grunt, but it has always been plenty enough for me. The 100 series petrol is actually in my opinion, a nicer vehicle to drive.
The V8 petrol engine is silky smooth and silent. The automatic transmission on the 100 series is a lot crisper and less mushy than the 200 and seems to lock up a lot better netween changes. The brakes on the 100 are more direct, with less of a spongy feel and much less pedal travel.
The only downside of the 100 series petrol is the awful fuel consumption when towing something heavy and, with that, a shorter range.
AnswerID: 523013

Follow Up By: LIFE MEMBER-snailbait - Saturday, Dec 14, 2013 at 13:31

Saturday, Dec 14, 2013 at 13:31
Keithb
I have the solution for your petrol as i have a 5.4 f250 towing a 20 ft caravan i am going to supercharge
Diesel have a turbo so why not a petrol have a supercharger
it will finished by end feb then it will use less petrol when towing
l
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Reply By: Member - KeithB - Sunday, Dec 15, 2013 at 21:05

Sunday, Dec 15, 2013 at 21:05
Too late for Me because I've already bought the 200 series. But I think supercharging a V8 Petrol might make it very thirsty indeed.
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