Registration dilema regarding the number of seats

Submitted: Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 17:35
ThreadID: 105555 Views:7779 Replies:12 FollowUps:4
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Hi Folks,
I recently had a conversation with a colleague regarding the seating capacity of our 100 Series Landcruisers. Both are registered and Compliance Plated to carry 8 persons (8 seats). He commented, after being told by someone in authority, that if he/we removed the third row of seats (which are made to be removable) we would be in breach of the Traffic Act/Regulations if the vehicle was not downgraded and re-registered to have 5 seats. This would be at a cost of about $200.
He queried a lady at our local Court House/Registration Branch recently and was told that this was correct.
My questions to any Learned/legally experienced people out there are:
Is this in fact correct? (It will apply to a myriad of other vehicles with removable 3rd row seats)
If the vehicle was downgraded and re-registered would it then have to be “upgraded” and re-registered if the seats were reinstalled? (upgrading would be a very different process to downgrading)
Why is the vehicle Compliance Plated for 8 seats when in fact it can only carry 7 persons i.e. it has only 7 seats (2 front, 3 centre and 2 rear (third row))?
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Reply By: Keir & Marg - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 18:15

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 18:15
From the Vicroads website (but you should check if QLD is the same):
Removing seats
The requirements for removing seats will vary depending on:
the original number of seating positions
the new number of seating positions
which seats are removed
when the vehicle was manufactured

An Approval Certificate is not required if:
the number of original seating positions was less than 10
10 or more seating positions have been reduced to 2 - 3 seats in the front row only
10 or more seating positions have been reduced to 4 - 9 seats in a vehicle manufactured before 1970
more than 12 seating positions have been reduced to 10-12 seats in a vehicle manufactured before 1986
the number of seating positions does not reduce to below 13

If the modification is not listed above an Approval Certificate is required.

In addition, the removal needs to be not permanent - defined as, leave the seatbelts fitted, even though the seats are not there!!!
AnswerID: 523348

Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 18:20

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 18:20
Hi Mapesy,

I went through this at rego time here in NSW (still being run by the Rum Corps despite the change of Govt.)

My Prado has 8 seat capacity (2 + 3 + 3) with removable third row. I have removed the third row semi-permanently and done what we all do, installed a drawer unit.

At rego time (annual inspection in NSW) it was "failed" because the inspector could not test the seat belts in the third row.

When touring I also remove the second row seats and install a false floor with tie-downs for all our gear. Presumably if I have to re-register when set up in touring mode the problem will be compounded.

And what if rego falls due when on the other side of the country - who does the inspection then?

There are ways around this, of course (;-)), but what an exercise in bureaucratic bull#$%

Should have bought a ute, but needs were different back then.

Cheers
FrankP

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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:00

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:00
Met this problem with our 11 seat Troopy some years ago. Hadn't had 11 seats for many years. It is now registered as a 3 seat "panel van". Required (in NSW) an engineers certificate to achieve this. He did a thorough job: (counted "1,2,3") and then checked for any other problems - found one too - the leading zero in the vehicle serial number wasn't on the rego papers! This is quite a while ago, and I think it then cost only a couple of hundred dollars. I always carry a copy of the rego papers now showing the "panel van" status - the compliance plate still shows11 seats!

Who said the law is an ass?

Cheers

John
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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:06

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:06
Bought my 05 100 series at the SA Govt. auctions - the 3rd row seats had been removed (presumably at the request of the first user; PIRSA). The compliance plate was updated to reflect this changed seating status - so I guess that in SA, this is the law too. I would have taken them out anyway, but it hurts not to have them in storage, for the time of vehicle resale.
AnswerID: 523352

Reply By: kev.h - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:27

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 19:27
Hey Mapesy
Page two explains it, seems if they were designed to be removed you are OK unless it is permanent and changes the vehicle category ie. taking the seats out of a coaster bus changes it into a van. The compliance plate is the max. number of passengers with all tempory and permanent seats in place
Kev


L 5.0 Permanent and temporary removal of seats from light motor vehicles (PDF, 7 KB)
Vehicle Standards Instructions
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/Vehicle%20standards%20and%20modifications/Vehicle%20standards/Vehicle%20standards%20instructions/VSIL50Permanentandtemporaryremovalofseatsfromlightmotorvehicles.pdf - 22 Jun 2010
AnswerID: 523353

Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 20:22

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 20:22
Your are allowed to remove seats as long as they can be refitted with basic hand tools and don't form part of a stress structure, as for the wording temporary ...... How long is temporary.

When removing seats associated seat belts have to be removed at the same time.

The law was originally written to stop people defrauding the state and federal governments from income..... Commercial vehicles are charged at a higher rate meaning if you had a Targo and you wanted to use it for carting gear around for a business that should be done with a commercial vehicle like a Hiace van and in the mean time getting cheaper rego and insurance then you breaking the law.

Passenger based vehicle are cheaper to operate.

The interpretation of the law is what you have a discrepancy with, not the law it self.

This is clearly set out on the relative state government we'd sites relating to seat removal.

Even officials who should know better can get it wrong.

If ever in doubt of what a law is about, have a look at why the law was written in the first place....... This is what legal professionals and judges do and why some breaches get thrown out.

FYI as we'll, not state rego bodies offer cheaper rego and insurance if you can prove a commercial vehicle is used for non commercial use, here in SA fitting draws to the rear of a 4x4 ute is all that is needed as it is classed as a recreational vehicle....... And if you try a cheat and use it for commercial use expect big fines.

AnswerID: 523360

Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 20:44

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 20:44
You also need to inform your insurance company as to any seat changes - because if you don't - and the vehicle is involved in an accident, this then gives them an "out" to avoid paying out. You must advise your insurance company as to any modifications done to your vehicle, if they vary from what you wrote on your application form. Even changing the tyre size, speed or load rating will be enough for an insurance company to back out of a payout.

My middle nephew is in the mining contracting business. He buys his work vehicles fully fitted with bull bars, spotlights, flashing yellow lights, towbars, worklights, and wide wheels.
He had a near-new Landcruiser written off, and his insurance company only wanted to supply him with a brand-new standard-fitment, bare-bones vehicle (because the policy provided a new replacement vehicle under a certain age).
Apparently they never asked him to detail all the accessories fitted to the vehicle (as many insurers do).

He argued with them, that the vehicle was supplied to him fully equipped from the dealer with all the accessories, and that they were insuring the whole deal - and he wanted a replacement vehicle identically equipped.

They continued to protest about the "extras" - so he supplied the car dealers invoice showing all the fitted accessories, and total pricing - and claimed that he bought the vehicle as a single purchase, equipped as he specified.
The insurance company relented and supplied an identically-equipped vehicle. The difference would have been several thousand dollars if he hadn't pursued the insurance company to pay out on the accessories.

If you remove seating, and replace the seating with custom-made components, and the vehicle is written off, it's likely your insurance payout will not compensate you adequately, unless you advise your insurance company of the alterations.

AnswerID: 523361

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:29

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:29
Insurance companies are not as evil as one would like to think, they still have to follow a code of conduct and abide to consumer laws, as for legal modifications you don't have to tell them but it will help in a claim........ What would happen is someone bought a modified vehicle and we're not aware of the modification, got it insured with all good intention only to find the insurance was void because of some thing they had no understanding of.

The only time you should really tell them is if something is out of the norm.

The only time they may refuse a payout is if there were elements of illegal activities, contempt or fraud........ My Landcruiser got broken in to and they stole my 50 inch plasma tv and my girlfriends $12000 diamond ring.

Under law they have to replace anything damaged that was fitted to the vehicle prior to the accident.

There are many urban myths floating around and in most cases it's not true or the main cause for the dispute is brought on by the customer..... The same goes for many declined warrant issues.

You have to remember insurance companies were not Bourne yesterday and have heard it all before, they know what is right and wrong and if someone is trying to take them for a ride.
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FollowupID: 804741

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Dec 23, 2013 at 01:30

Monday, Dec 23, 2013 at 01:30
Ron they have no out as such. The modification etc must be shown to have caused or exacerbated the accident. If you take out the rear seats then hit a kangeroo obviously it isnt a factor
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FollowupID: 804801

Follow Up By: Echucan Bob - Tuesday, Dec 24, 2013 at 18:44

Tuesday, Dec 24, 2013 at 18:44
olcoolone
I'm impressed by your faith in the insurance industry. But I think its misplaced. They only exist to make a profit. The more they collect in premiums and the less they pay out in claims the bigger the profit. The other obvious ploy to maximise profits is to employ fewer people (to service the policy holders) and to outsource as much as possible to the Phillipines. It is a standard ploy to reject all claims up front. Only those with perseverance battle on to challenge them.
It is no doubt true that many punters try it on with insurance companies, but the obverse is also true.
Bob
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FollowupID: 804922

Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:16

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:16
Hi Mapesy,

There is a Qld Transport website here that specifically addresses your question. When you click on the website it downloads a PDF document with all the answers.

An extract from that PDF is as follows..............

"The main principal that needs to be addressed when assessing the
removal of seats is whether the vehicle is actually modified or has just
been reconfigured in accordance with the manufacturers various options.
If seats are reconfigured, no modification occurs and approval is not
required.
The other factor is the length of time the seats will be removed."

I would believe that you are simply "reconfiguring" and not "modifying" so all is OK.
But go to the website for the complete and authoritative answer.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Allan

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AnswerID: 523362

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:32

Saturday, Dec 21, 2013 at 21:32
By the way Mapesy, If you go this way, it may be a good idea to carry a copy of the Qld Transport PDF document in the vehicle in case you encounter an authority who challenges your configuration.
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Allan

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Reply By: Member - PJR (NSW) - Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 07:13

Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 07:13
Very early this year (2013) I was told by a Rego ACT inspector over the phone that it is much the same for the ACT. He said the if I was to remove both second and third rows that the car has to be registered as a "goods carrying vehicle". His words exactly. Put the willies up me a bit and I never got back to it.

But do you think I can find any reference to it. I am wondering if he was just anti 4WD mods.

Has anyone got a reference for the ACT seating changes? Come on you search wizards (now that's a challenge).

Thanks for the reminder. Lost that bit of paper among all the reminder notes.

Phil
AnswerID: 523372

Reply By: Mapesy (QLD) - Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 12:30

Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 12:30
Thank you one and all for your informative comments. I now know that to temporarily remove the third row of seats is OK. I guess I won't be selling them in the near future.
Thanks again.
AnswerID: 523382

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 15:20

Sunday, Dec 22, 2013 at 15:20
The moral of the story is to keep your 3rd row seats and brackets and put them back in if your REGO fails because of the seats removed. It would be a half hour job to have them in place and back to the pink slip guy! Michael
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Reply By: Life Member - Fred B (ex-NT) - Monday, Dec 23, 2013 at 11:19

Monday, Dec 23, 2013 at 11:19
I had the same problem when I owned the prado in the NT. Went for rego, and the inspector said "those draws are only temporary aren't they? You are going on a trip and going to put the seats back (3rd row) on completion, aren't you? "" Of course my answer was "Yes Sir!" No problem was his reply....
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