80 Series Landcruiser Rear Bearings & Seals PROBLEM

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 12:13
ThreadID: 105723 Views:10197 Replies:12 FollowUps:31
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So... with the help and advise from the fine folk on this forum I recently went through the long (for me) and slow process of replacing the rear bearings and seals on my 80 series to fix a diff oil leak. All went well, or so I thought.

Hmmmm... seems like I royally stuffed this up! I'm not sure what I've done wrong but now I notice a distinct wobble in one of the back wheels after replacing the bearing and seals.

Does anyone have any idea of what this might be? I'm pretty sure I seated the bearing races in correctly, although I didn't use a press I used a punch (gently and gradually).

Also, I only half did one side as I ran out of time. When I went to finish it off over the weekend I noticed that I'd stripped the thread on two of the axle bolts. Does anyone know if these easily replaced?

Thanks for your help!!!
HP

PS Original post is here http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/105378/80_Series_Landcruiser_Diff_Replacement.aspx
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Reply By: John and Regina M - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:04

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:04
USED A PUNCH..................

Wow, amateur hour.
Wonder , apart from possible cracked bits, what else is damaged?
Oh yes, that's right, threads.
And what else?

No advice from me I'm afraid, only criticism for trying to do something that if done incorrectly, has the prospect of killing you, or most probably, some other poor innocent.

However, as an aside, congratulations for trying.

Now get it to the people who actually know what they're doing.
AnswerID: 524033

Follow Up By: hermanpeckel - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:14

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:14
Thanks for your reply John. You are absolutely right! It was total amateur hour! I didn't even know bearing races had threads.

Just to clarify, I got the old bearing races out with a punch (slowly and carefully), cut through the race with an angle grinder and cutting wheel, and used this to push the other races in with the punch (slowly and carefully). They seemed to seat fine.

And to clarify further, I am not driving the car with the wobble in the back wheel. I may not be a great mechanic, but I'm not totally stupid.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:25

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:25
To remove AND replace a wheel bearing cup, A punch is a totally normal thing to use.
I fitted many many bearings in such a manner and there is nothing amateur about it at all.

Perhaps the seating wasn't fully done or the bearing adjuster is not correct. either way, if the wheel wobbles the axle WILL soon beak just inside the flange if allowed to continue.

Many people on the forum are amateurs and "want to have a go" and within the bounds of normal human abilities most can learn the skills if they don't already possess them.

" Wow, amateur hour" is an uncaring and unhelpful attitude.

A decent explanation of what to look for and the pitfalls likely to be encountered can be more useful so the person involved can then make a RISK ASSESSMENT of what they propose to do or if further action and decisions they may make are required
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Follow Up By: hermanpeckel - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:31

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:31
Thanks Ross! Good to know I'm not a total goose! I DID get that method from a youtube video and it seemed logical.

I'm wondering if I've already stuffed the axle by bending it or something. Anyhow, time and the mechanics will tell I guess.

And, as you pointed out, I don't mind someone telling me I'm an idiot, as long as they point me in the right direction afterwards.

Thanks again!
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 20:02

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 20:02
Jeesuz, that was helpful!!! Why not try to help the guy out instead of sitting on your high horse and criticising him. After all, a person who never made a mistake never made anything. "No advice from me..". Exactly! If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Well done for having a go, Herman. Sorry it didn't work out, but if you ever try it again you will be better prepared and have a little more experience.

Plenty of folks here will steer you in the right direction. Ignore the others.

Jack
The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get. (Lewis Carroll-Alice In Wonderland)

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 08:22

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 08:22
I don't think criticising someone is wrong if they have not done it right, maybe its a man thing where by we think we know everything and even if we don't we will not seek outside help.

Thats the whole point in learning something, you get taught how to do it by someone who knows and who can teach you the right and wrongs of it.

The art of it is to know when to stop before going too far and screwing things up.

You would be surprised how often we seek further information on something before tackling it in our workshop. We have learnt if in unfamiliar territory that we have some doubt with seek help.

Its funny man needs a GPS navigation system to get around major roads in a city but doesn't need any help with anything else that they have no clue about.

It won't be long before someone takes legal action against someone one a forum for incorrect interpretation of information provided.

We have been advised not to lend tools, use our facilities or give technical advice to anyone other than a qualified person as our liability increases and can lead to legal action.

People have to stop thinking everyone has the same skill sets as they do, we get men in their 40's who don't know what a fan belt is, what the warning light on their dash flashing represent or how to pop the bonnet.
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Follow Up By: hermanpeckel - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:57

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 09:57
Hi olcoolone,

I agree with what you are saying. We need to get taught how to do things before we do them. However, there are many ways to "get taught". That said, the only way to truly learn how to do something is by doing it yourself.

Next time I tackle this I will make sure I don't make the same mistake. If I still don't fix the problem I will take the car to the mechanic and get them to sort it.

Point is, ANYONE can make a mistake - from the backyard hacker like myself, to the trained and seasoned tradesman. Mistakes happen. A mistake happened to me and this is me seeking help to rectify that mistake.

Cheers
HP
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:09

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:09
Yes ......the only true way of learning something is to do it your self....... True but only if you get shown or supervised by someone knowledgable who shows you the right way.

All I can say thank god we aren't a DIY surgery society.

Your point on even trades people screw up is not a real valid point, sorry.



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Follow Up By: hermanpeckel - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:42

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:42
Well, yes, I agree. Getting shown is a great way to learn how to do something. My point is, I could do this whole thing again and encounter different issues that I'd have to work around. You can't be supervised forever.

And I think my point about tradespeople occasionally screwing up is very valid. As for surgeons, no, they never screw up.

Anyhow, we can agree to disagree I suppose. Be sure to read my next post on this. There's a happy ending (kind of).
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Follow Up By: Mudripper - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:47

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:47
Well 'olcoolone' I think it is a real valid point. After all, a trained 'professional' mechanic has the ability to screw something up just as badly as a backyard DIYer. I'm sure most people have had that experience, I certainly have. The only difference is that the professional is getting paid, the DIYer isn't.

And I'm sure that hermanpeckel wasn't referring to the medical profession either.

Tim.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 17:09

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 17:09
olcoolone.

Mechanics do screw things up and since the ratio of good to poor is around 90% likely to cause a screw up to, 10% do a good professional job it is not surprising.

When I did a certain mechanical qualification in Victoria, only 4 out of 44 actually passed the 2 day examination of theory and practice.
Experiences since with repairs has seen that percentage born out many many times and in no way infers everyone knows everything.

The better ones check their work and have pride in the task.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Jan 09, 2014 at 15:41

Thursday, Jan 09, 2014 at 15:41
"Mechanics do screw things up and since the ratio of good to poor is around 90% likely to cause a screw up to, 10% do a good professional job it is not surprising."

Jeez that's a bit rich....... 9 in 10 are no good and will screw up, must be lucky as all my guys don't screw up and if they did it could cost me big money..... try chasing gear around Australia and in remote areas to do reworks.

I would put a figure on maybe 1 in 10 would do poor work.

Don't blame the poor mechanic as in most cases it's the boss who should get the kick up the...... The buck stops with him/her for not making sure there staff are skilled with the right attitude doing the work correctly.

We do a advanced training courses throughout the year and it's surprising to see the same 25-50 people turn up time after time, don't know where the other 1000's are getting there training or skills updates from.
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Reply By: hermanpeckel - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:22

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 13:22
BTW, I think you are right. Might be best I just bite the bullet and take it to my mechanic for a professional job. Sometimes trying to save money ends up costing more ;-)
AnswerID: 524035

Follow Up By: cruiser 3 - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:28

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:28
Hi Hermanpeckel.
First of all ignore the criticism.
I would rather tap a bearing in than use a press because you have more control and are able to prevent the bearing from entering a little crooked and becoming jammed.
Using the old bearing to push the new bearing in is also a good idea.
The thing to remember is to only push on the outer part of the bearing and not on the rollers.
Now to your problem.
First check to make sure that the wheel wobble is not something simple like the wheel not being seated against the brake drum and axle hub. If you noticed the wheel wobble after completing the job and before you took the car off the jack then it could well be simply that the wheel isnt tightened correctly. I say this because if the bearing was not adjusted correctly and was loose and you spun the wheel it would be more inclined to spin without any wobble but would have end play.
To ensure that the bearings are adjusted correctly there should be no end play of the axle hub at all (well .004 inch max is allowable)and. To check this it's best to have the wheel off and try to pull and push the hub in and out if it is bad it will be noticeable however when checking this after replacing the bearings it should be done before the axle and brake caliper is fitted.
Now you say that the studs in the axle hub are stripped. These should be able to be removed easily. Try using vice grips and if they are hard to get started give them a sharp tap with a hammer and brass drift. When tightening the nuts and cone washers on to these studs they should be tightened to 25 ft-lbs which is not all that tight if done by hand withought a tension wrench.
The spring gauge method of adjusting the wheel bearings is a good method and one that is recommended by Toyota.
It seems that you are happy with the outcome of the other side so it seems like you have done everything right and ony need to identify and rectify the cause of the wheel wobble.
If you need any further advice feel free to ask.
Best regards
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FollowupID: 805619

Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:17

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:17
Herman
There you are! A helpful realistic person willing to help so you can learn and do a bit more too.
The more temperate Regina M may not get to read this an appreciate the technical description given but may still have appreciation of such matters.
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:02

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:02
I agree to get it done properly, but if I were to guess, I think you've failed to seat the adjusting nut correctly, which has left the bearings loose. Loose bearings puts lots of tension on the axle studs, and beings small and easily stretched in the 80series they break.
Did you replace the inner axle seal, which would have been the cause of your oil leak?
AnswerID: 524050

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:07

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:07
Those stripped axle stud threads - you need to replace the lot - they are cheap to replace - get a set complete with cone washers etc - I've bought them from terrain tamer before.
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Reply By: hermanpeckel - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:26

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:26
Champion!! Thanks Phil. What you say makes sense. When I first tested the car it seemed fine. The more I drove it the worse it got. I've read that you should adjust the tension after replacing the bearings and driving for a bit.

The oil leaks are all sorted by replacing the inner seals. I should have just left it at that. Oh well, you live and learn (usually).

At least I'll have some options to give the mechanic. Thanks again!
AnswerID: 524053

Follow Up By: cruiser 3 - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:42

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:42
Just a quick follow up. No you dont have to readjust after driving for a bit. Once the Wheel bearings are adjusted correctly they need no further adjustment until the next scheduled wheel bearing service.
Regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 18:52

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 18:52
Cruiser 3,
If you replace (and not just regrease) the bearings, then yes, its good practice to readjust because some play can become evident very soon after.
The problem is fairly well explained by Alan Gray in a youtube video:
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Follow Up By: cruiser 3 - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:10

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:10
Hi Phil
That is why when replacing bearings it is important to have adequate preload on the bearings which then makes readjustment unecessay.
quite often even qualified tradesmen have different views and do what works for them but when it comes to training someone we must adopt proven procedures and those recommended by the manufacturer
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Reply By: Member - Bruce C (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:31

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:31
Hi Herman,

I'll do my best to be polite.
Ignore the fools who have no manners, as they also are amateurs.

Now congratulations on having a go yourself. Always best if you can get your hands on a manual describing the processes involved before tackling these sorts of jobs unless you have years of experience doing similar jobs. Practice makes perfect, as they say.

The manual you want is GREGORYS No. 517 for the petrol or 513 if it is the diesel.
You should be able to get it from Supercheap or Repco or the like.

The wheel wobble sounds somewhat disturbing and I cannot think what may be the cause unless the wheel is not seated properly on the axle flange/drum.

Using a punch on this particular job is not out of the question and in re seating the bearings, so long as the punch was brass or a softer steel than the bearings, and no bits came off, I would say good job especially considering you took it slowly.

If the seal is not leaking then I would also say you have apparently done a reasonable job.

If you stripped the axle studs on removal I would say they were on their way out before you touched the job. If on the way back then go stand in the corner. LOL

First job is to get that wheel off and see if it is a simple problem or one that needs a mechanic and workshop.

Full marks for giving it a go.

Cheers, Bruce
At home and at ease on a track that I know not and
restless and lost on a track that I know. HL.

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AnswerID: 524054

Follow Up By: Member - Boo Boo (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:51

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:51
Bruce

I would have to agree with you.

It is very disappointing that some contributors to our forum are consistently rude, ill mannered and quite often aggressive.

This type of contributor does discourage people from making positive comments, or even asking for help.

I now offer a toast to positive contributors. Good on you.
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Follow Up By: Lyn W3 - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 19:09

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 19:09
Yep, it's always the same one who jump on people!
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Reply By: Jack - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:45

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:45
You did'nt need to take the wheel hub off if your only replacing the inner axel seal.
AnswerID: 524056

Follow Up By: cruiser 3 - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:51

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 17:51
You are correct but he said he wanted to replace the bearings as well as the seals.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 18:56

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 18:56
When the inner seal leaks, the oil that has leaked out is then free to mix with the wheel bearing grease and turn it to soft mush. So I'd always regrease the bearings if replacing an inner axle seal.
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Follow Up By: Axle - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:34

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:34
G/Day Phil,,, That oil grease mixture is the the best lube you can have for wheel bearings!....Dinkum!!, ask any defender owner...lol.


Cheers Axle
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FollowupID: 805638

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:25

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:25
Hey Axle,
I know you're right - a very well respected 4wd mechanic I knew used to make up an oil/grease "slurry" and lube his Landcruiser bearings with it.
My first 4wd was a 2A Landrover - everything seemed to be lubed with oil - even the aircleaner, which was an oil bath!
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Reply By: hermanpeckel - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:55

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 21:55
Man, I've got to say, I was bit disheartened after the first response, but the rest have been great. So much so that I'm probably NOT going to take it to the mechanic's now and going to have another shot myself. I think I'll do a much better job this time too!

Thanks for the advice and even more the encouragement. You guys are tops!

HP
AnswerID: 524067

Follow Up By: Axle - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:13

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:13
That's the spirit!, If you don't succeed the first time, "Try ..Try"..Again!


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:28

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:28
Axle,
What about a moon launch, can we do it?
Maybe just a quick orbit or two!
Cheers
Ross M
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FollowupID: 805642

Follow Up By: Axle - Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:35

Tuesday, Jan 07, 2014 at 22:35
No Worries mate!,as long as your on the first launch out of here! ..lol.

Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 08:19

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 08:19
If at first you don't succeed, then sky diving is not for you.

Jack
The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get. (Lewis Carroll-Alice In Wonderland)

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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 11:06

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 11:06
The other advantage of doing it yourself is that if you do a bit of remote area exploring and have something go bang is that now you have an idea of what is inside some of the components.
After more years than I care to remember I have come across a few non "qualified" mechanics that had a pretty good understanding of what went on inside most vehicles.
Likewise I have come across a few supposedly "qualified" mechanics that wouldn't get the job of changing the oil in my lawn mower.
What is inside was designed and assembled by another person, not a bloke with a long black gown, pointy hat and a stick with a star on the end...lol.
As others have said nothing wrong with installing bearing races with a punch as long as you hit the part that is tight in the housing.
Oil in your grease? What do think grease is? A base with oil added which is why all that lovely messy stuff runs out of the grease gun in hot weather.

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: hermanpeckel - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:50

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 14:50
A bit more background and a happy(ish) ending.

As I've previously stated, I'm no "fully qualified mechanic". So when, after changing the wheel bearings and seals etc my back end started to develop a wobble (so to speak), I immediately questioned my workmanship. In fact, I was ready to give myself an uppercut for even attempting this, even though I didn't really think I'd stretched myself.

I got the Mrs to drive the car slowly while I followed along on the bike to be 100% about which side the wobble was on. After a LOT of investigation I realised that it wasn't the side I'd done the bearings etc on. It turned out to be a bulge in the &$%# tyre!!

Oh well. I love a happy ending ;)

PS Thanks for the advise though. I'll use it when I do the other side (including the axle studs).
AnswerID: 524093

Follow Up By: Member - Leigh (Vic) - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 15:41

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 15:41
Congratulations Hermanpeckel on solving the issue. I also reckon you are up to the task, just do your research and go for it!! The experts here also have their fair share of disasters but the difference here is you have the courage to share your issues where as the expert critics are plainly beyond reproach. Cheers, Leigh
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 21:29

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 21:29
HP,

To make the task easier on the other side, try these ideas.

Once you cleaned up the hub, and removed the old cups, put the hub out in the sun to warm up. Then take the new cups, remembering which cup goes with which cone, and put the cups in the freezer for a couple of hours. Using plenty of snake's piss on the inner surface of the hub, fit the cup. It will fit much easier initially, though will tighten up once the cup warms up again.

From thread 105378, re your question about the workings of the handbrake. What I did once was take a photo of the assembly, with the disc off, and it gave me something to refer too later, if I forgot which part went where. Once you've pulled the h'brake apart, make sure the adjusting screw turns freely, and lubricate with some anti-seize, before re-assembly.

Even with a worksop manual, adjusting the handbrake can be a bit of a"black art" to get it right the first few times. Obviously if you over adjust it, then the shoes won't last long! Wouldn't take too much notice of the negative comments at the beginning either. Positive responses from that individual are as rare as rocking horse poo.

Have fun,
Bob.



Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Goerge - Saturday, Jan 11, 2014 at 19:15

Saturday, Jan 11, 2014 at 19:15
Jack up the wheels off the ground you replaced the bearings in and with one hand at the top of the tyre and the other at the bottom push pull to see if there is any movement in your bearings?
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FollowupID: 805885

Reply By: Inspectorbluedog - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 15:17

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 15:17
If the leaks happen again it might pay to insert a speedi sleeve on the axile and maybe one on the rear hub seal face.
AnswerID: 524094

Reply By: Ross M - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 20:35

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 20:35
Herman
If you see a forum member now choking on the hat they are eating or choking on Humble Pie you may recognize who it is.
Just give them your good punch.
AnswerID: 524112

Reply By: hermanpeckel - Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 22:18

Wednesday, Jan 08, 2014 at 22:18
Man... I can't thank you guys enough for your awesome advice. This is what the internet is all about - loads of people offering loads of good advice!!

As for the negative stuff - why the hell would you even go to a forum on this kind of stuff if people that didn't know everything p*$$ed you off? For me, the idiot isn't the person that makes mistakes. The idiot is the person that "doesn't".

Thanks again folks!!!
AnswerID: 524120

Reply By: cruiser 3 - Thursday, Jan 09, 2014 at 09:50

Thursday, Jan 09, 2014 at 09:50
After all of the various comments I feel it important to outline the method recommended in the Genuine Toyota repair manual for adjusting the rear wheel bearings on Landcruisers with fully floating axles.

After reassembly of the bearings. Using SST 09509-25011 (this can be purchased from Toyota for about $50) torque the bearing locknut to 43 ft-lb.

Turn the hub several times by hand to snug down the bearings then retighten again to 43 ft-lb.

Loosen the bearing lock nut until you can turn the lock nut by hand. Then using a spring tension gauge hooked to the wheel studs pull until the wheel starts to turn, measure the force needed to start the wheel to turn. It should be between 0.6-1.4kg

Now start tightening the adjusting nut a little at a time while checking with the spring tension gauge until the effort needed to start the wheel turning reaches between 2.6-5.7 kg.

Now align the lock nut mark with one of the marks on the axle housing and place the lock screws in the holes at right angles to the lock nut and tighten.

Job finished.
AnswerID: 524133

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