Prado Fuel System Overhaul

Submitted: Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:04
ThreadID: 106443 Views:2186 Replies:12 FollowUps:19
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Hi All

I have a 2008 Prado with 3lt D4D engine which started running a bit rough. Nothing serious, just felt like a bit of a miss like if you have a dodgy spark plug in a petrol engine. So dropped it into our local Toyota dealer to check it out. Problem is fuel contamination, solution is complete fuel system overhaul, cost is $11,000. Does this sound right? Any advice greatly appreciated.

cheers
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Reply By: jacent - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:11

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:11
I would be going to get a second/ third opinion at a diesel specialist that is a lot of money!
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Reply By: Member - bbuzz (NSW) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:26

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:26
These D4D models had injector problems with leaky seals, carbon buildup etc.

Look on pradopoint.com in the relevant section (engine diesel) and read the many pages detailing the problems these things are causing.

Lots of things to check before you spend that kind of money.

bill
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Reply By: Ross M - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:44

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 08:44
You should ask the dealer what type of contamination is the problem, ask them for the evidence.

Water?
Particulate material?
Other liquid solvent material? hard to detect. the presence of that. (unikely)

If it is then what is wrong with the vehicle warning systems?

Most dealers, if not all, have little or no ability to say which it is, therefore they say fuel contamination as a reason.

As mentioned above. When faults arise:
The real issue may be failed injectors, Very common.
Leaking injectors, Very common.

Toyota don't like admitting to that though and so instantly blame contamination.
Contamination is possible but it should also be evident it has happened.

Without really knowing the situation it is all just a guessing game.
$11000 is way over charging for that work.
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Reply By: Shaker - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 09:47

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 09:47
A friend of mine was able to claim the damage done to his Landcruiser by contaminated fuel through his comprehensive insurance, it was a similar amount.

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Reply By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:02

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:02
Hi Brett

Thats a lot of money , but not unreasonable if the entire fuel system has to be re-done
which usually means fixed fuel lines as well.

You have probably read on this site that diesel fuel system overhauls are much more of an issue than with petrol, they do happen a bit due to contamination and figures up to $20k to fix have been required.

Like other posters though I'd want to know more before laying out the money.

In your case though you appear to have time to sort it out and faced with that sort of figure there are actions you could take e.g. a clean and replace the injectors is something you could do , you might fix it , if its in fuel pump probably not, but I would suggest that you could find the issue well before spending 11k.

Don't know if you like to play with cars as I do but things like code reader can help work thru issues.
I would also try a higher cetane fuel and see if that lessens the problem.
Sometimes these things can be corrected simply particularly if just a small amount of contamination has occurred.





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Reply By: John and Regina M - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:13

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:13
For far more informative information without the shock and horror I would post yr question on the land cruiser forum.

But it does sound about right.
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Reply By: mick - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 12:44

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 12:44
Hi Brett and Julie,

I just checked with my Insurance Company (RAC) for peace of mind and they advised that in the event of contaminated fuel or even putting the wrong fuel in my tank I am covered. Worth looking into your policy. $11000 that would just about get you a new motor!

Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Barry P (VIC) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 18:56

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 18:56
fuel i also checked with my insurance company the racv about contaminated fuel causing damadge to the injectors etc they said i would not be covered,bye barry
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Follow Up By: Brett and Julie - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 18:43

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 18:43
I asked that very question Mick just out of curiosity. New engine from Toyota dealer was $23,000!
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Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 14:37

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 14:37
I think it's not too far off the mark for a dealer quote for just the injectors and a clean-out. But contaminated fuel usually buggers the HP pump. I'd be expecting at least another $4K or more for that.

My dealer picked up faulty injectors in my D4D under warranty in 2009. I saw the internal bill from him to Toyota - $7000.00. That would be wholesale labour, etc, so I imagine the retail bill to me if I had had to pay would have been much higher and not far off the $11,000 you have been quoted.

Fo info, if Toyota does the work any high pressure pipeline that is disturbed is replaced - Toyota consider them a one-shot item. That adds to the cost.

DIY injector replacement on these engines is not for the faint-hearted. They are inside the rocker cover and I believe a camshaft must be removed for access, so you're looking at major work - stripping down the top of the engine. Correct handling of and torquing up the HP pipework is critical.

The seals that were mentioned - if one of those has leaked the injector will be glued into its well in the head with carbonised oil and you'll need to expend A LOT of grief to get the bugger out.

And if that is the case you should drop the sump and inspect the oil pick-up for blockage from carbonised oil/soot particles caused by blowby carbonising oil around the injector. The particles get carried down to the sump where they are picked up by the oil pump strainer. If the strainer is not cleaned it may end up starving the engine of oil with subsequent total failure.

Unfortunately not all dealers are fully clued up on these engines. I would seek a second opinion from a reputable diesel mechanic. The D4D has been around long enough for non-Toyota mechanics to have some experience on those engines. You may get a more in-depth analysis from a bloke with dirty hands than you will from a PR bloke in a collar and tie gehind a service desk.

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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:11

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:11
"They are inside the rocker cover and I believe a camshaft must be removed for access"

Correction ... Senior's moment. It is the injectors that must be removed so that valve clearance shims can be accessed.

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Reply By: Member - Odog - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 15:58

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 15:58
What gets up my goat, is the fuel filter under the bonnet, in the service book, it never gets replaced, what is the point of that! When mine gets serviced, I always tell them to change it. Have been told by a toyota mechanic, who is family friend, always get it done! Maybe I'm wasting my cash, but time will tell.. Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:13

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:13
Yeah, I get mine done on schedule. I put a hidden mark on it to make sure. Haven't had to challenge my people yet.

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Follow Up By: Member - Odog - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:28

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 16:28
I'm with you on that one Frank, I also put a little mark to make sure I get what I pay for, I just don't under stand why they just drain it, but not replace it... Surely it must start to restrict the fuel flow after a period of time... Why wait till the light comes on the dash to say "hey we got a problem" sorry for the rant, but is this why the prados seem to be always coping contaminated fuel issues?
Julie and Brett, when you get it serviced do you have the fuel filter under the bonnet changed, or just the filter under the car.. Not sure if all models have that one?. Cheers, I hope it all works out for you both.
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:00

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:00
What gets me is the fact that if these common rail engines are so susceptible to contamination form dirty fuel why isn't the factory fuel filtration good enough to stop it?
Seems like a huge con on the manufacturers part if the vehicle they are selling is going to be damaged by contaminated fuel then why isn't the existing fuel filters designed by said manufacturer capable of filtering the crap out.
If it isn't then my take on it is that if contaminated fuel damages the engine then surely they are at fault for not fitting a filtration system to suit the requirements of the engine.
You would surely have a claim that it is not fit for purpose!
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Follow Up By: Axle - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:14

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:14
My thoughts as well Peter!,...Just how good is the filtration on these things??...and the so called warning lights ..alarms?, ...looking at what you have to pay for these things, Yes you would be inclined to think its not fit for purpose!


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:56

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 19:56
I hear what your saying Peter but I suspect the vehicle manufacturers response to that is that their filtration systems are adequate for fuel supplied to the relevant standards and why are the fuel suppliers selling substandard fuel.
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Follow Up By: Member - Odog - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 20:49

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 20:49
Well why is it that it's landcruisers and prados... I have heard of the odd patrol or two, but heaps of toyotas... Haven't heard of other makes, how many diesel vehicles running around, not just four wheel drives!
How come they aren't all getting a tank full of bad fuel..
Has to be the manufacture at fault... No other excuse.. Gets me going, it's always the consumer that gets walked over... Sorry, at least I'm minding my Ps and Qs Cheers
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 21:01

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 21:01
It would be interesting to know what level of filtration (microns) the typical vehicle has.
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Follow Up By: Member - Craig F (WA) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 22:19

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 22:19
Mate got a tank of bad diesel last week clogged up his filter then his spare limped home 750km.
Car was a GQ..
More frequent in the Common Rail than the old Oil Burners..
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 23:52

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 23:52
I would hazard a guess, that the vast majority of fuel system failures in Toyotas, besides the poor quality injectors they have, is the NON REGULAR changing of filters. A filter can only do so much and if it is left to degrade IT becomes the problem. Toyota seem to only think about changing IF there is a problem.
Then they advise you to drive it to a dealer so it can destroy itself as you drive towards the dealer and often then totally fails before you get there.
Smart thinking that.

Any filter driven to extinction, will cause a further problems, changed regularly, even sometimes, with normal use there isn't a problem and other makes with service instructions which ask for a change seem to have far less problems. Same use, same places, same fuel.

Keeping the filters their for eternity is a good way to get the workshop some income with repair work. All in the plan, just not a good plan for customers/owners though.

Dealer induced depreciation is alive and well.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 06:20

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 06:20
ODog, I asked an independent diesel specialist if this issue was a Toyota one in particular and he said that they see this issue in all makes and models of CRD vehicles
Possibly you hear about more Toyotas because there are more of them on the road?

Just the same it is not a problem that you want to have, I have fitted a prefilter with water alarm on my vehicle for additional protection
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Reply By: honest - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 20:17

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 20:17
You should've bought an old TD4.2 Nissan Patrol only fuses and filters to worry about
thats all.
cheers Honest
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Follow Up By: Brett and Julie - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 09:41

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 09:41
Thanks for that advice honest but I've already got one
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Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 21:48

Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 at 21:48
So did you go back to the last servo you filled up at? I always get a tax invoice and write the odometer reading on the back. They have insurance for that sort of thing! It's no different from an electrician falling through your kitchen ceiling! They are all insured. Michael
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 06:10

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 06:10
Yep, always pay with a credit card so I have purchase proof and history documented and make sure that my insurance policy includes fuel damage
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 08:02

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 08:02
Good Advice
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Reply By: Brett and Julie - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 10:04

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 10:04
Thanks everyone! We only just bought this car with 90,000km and full service history, it was the cleanest used car I'd ever seen and just been serviced too. It seems like insurance is going to cover it so I guess I'll put this one down to experience.

I agree with comments about fuel filter systems obviously being inadequate for CRD engines. I'll certainly be looking at aftermarket filter systems. Life's funny though isn't it? We've had a GQ Patrol for 14 years and done many trips all over Australia, change fuel filter regularly and never had any bad fuel. We have the Prado for a few weeks and get a batch of bad fuel from a servo in Melbourne.

cheers B & J



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Follow Up By: Winner W - Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:54

Friday, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:54
How would the average driver know the injectors are just stuffed or substandard as in the D4D motor or that really was bad fuel. The dealer could squeeze you for your money and you wouldnt know better.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Saturday, Mar 01, 2014 at 08:04

Saturday, Mar 01, 2014 at 08:04
Brett! Let us know hiw you get on with the insurance company when the repair is finished. It will be interesting to know if they want details of the servo so they can chase the cost of the repairs. I can't imaging the insurance co will just pay that sort of money out and not try to place the liability on the servo! Michael
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Follow Up By: Brett and Julie - Saturday, Mar 01, 2014 at 11:19

Saturday, Mar 01, 2014 at 11:19
When this is all over I'll do another thread with how it ended up. Thanks everyone for your interest in this. I was thinking it might be time to retire the old GQ from outback trips but maybe not!
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